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Submitted by Rick on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 12:22pm.
I find that a few of the OlyBlog regulars continue to make comparisons that are particularly outrageous. It appears to happen whenever someone makes a statement about holding the current administration accountable for their actions. It goes something like this: "But CLINTON did it TOO!" This is the worse kind of reasoning, and so far from appropriate that it is kind of a sad commentary that we even have to address it now. But, here we go. The thing that gets me is that all they achieve is to muddy the issue when we have a President who ACTUALLY deserves to be impeached. Actions have consequences, and Bush's actions have hurt our country in innumerable ways. The other guy? He got a blow job. These two are not the same, and to continue to maintain that they are is to continue to allow the current administration to damage the country. Read that last part again: If you continue to make this specious argument, you provide cover for people who are presently hurting this country. There is no other interpretation. If, because of partisanship and spite, you continue to make this argument, you are a false patriot, someone who claims love of country only as a political ploy, but isn't actually protecting our democracy.
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Submitted by Rick on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 12:54pm.I've tried to appeal to your patriotic sensibilities above, but it is actually much worse if you happen to care about human life in general, not just American lives. If one maintains that a lie is a lie is a lie, this amounts to a not-so-subtle bit of racism. It requires that one believes that lying about a blow job is equal to lying about WMD to invade a country. In the first case, no one got killed. In the second case, hundreds of thousands have been killed. To believe that these are the same, morally, is to believe that deaths don't matter if they're Iraqi deaths. The fact is, some lies ARE less moral than other lies. The bottom line: you don't help yourself by just saying: "Hey, they both lied." There is a moral obligation to talk about the consequences of those lies.
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
Apathy is the only enemy..
Submitted by bubba z (not verified) on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 12:59pm.Right on, Rick.
Submitted by jlw on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 1:08pm.Hillary's still married to
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 1:21pm.Kenneth Starr only bothered with the Hummer Controversy after he wasted millions of dollars going nowhere on Whitewater.
Same as the military having nothing on James Yee so they tried accusing him of adultery. At least in his case it never happened.
Whatever helps you all sleep
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 1:18pm.Whiskey and Barbiturates
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 1:23pm.Obviously my moral thermometer isn't registering a fever
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 1:24pm.I miss the good ol' days
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 1:26pm.Just fyi
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 1:38pm.that wasn't a shot at you Merwyn. I just got the proverbial kick in the shin underneath the table =D
15-24? 10, 11, 12 hours of sleep for me. Heck I slept until 11am this last weekend.
I didn't take it as a shot.
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 1:39pm.Hmmmm
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 1:43pm.Last weekend it was a shot of
Speaking of moral thermometers
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 1:50pm.The last time I knew, the moral implications of consentual sex versus the moral implications of lives lost - both via lying - was rather easy to calculate.
Now let's let each issue stand on its own merit. Clinton lied to protect his family from the humiliation of his wrongdoings. Why did Bush lie?
"There is only one race, the human race" - The Neville Brothers
I'm afraid your audience
Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 1:52pm.I'm afraid your audience doesn't know the answer.
This is what happens when
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 1:56pm.What lie?
Submitted by OlyCop on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 1:59pm.Pick the one that suits you best.
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 4:45pm.I think if you google "Bush lies" you'll come up with quite a selection.
"There is only one race, the human race" - The Neville Brothers
I think you need to pick one AL
Submitted by OlyCop on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 5:24pm.Gee.....there's not much I can say....
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 5:32pm.Tell me when you're ready for my waterboarding experiment. I always wanted to see what someone would do when waterboarded - you know....seeing that it's not torture and all that....
I think you are convinced that George Bush is an upstanding guy. Enjoy!
"There is only one race, the human race" - The Neville Brothers
Ok,
Submitted by OlyCop on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 7:09pm.Don't mistake my post
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Wed, 07/04/2007 - 6:40am.When I saw you mincing words over lies (whose lie is the worst lie) I realized that this was a similar conversation to a religionist trying to prove the existence of God(s) to an atheist. Thus I folded my hand.
"The alternatives made you want to puke" - hmmm....John Kerry, longtime Senator, war hero (at least so says his opposition) made you want to puke. Instead you voted for a fortunate son that got preferential treatment to avoid combat duty, whose best poliltical experience was his last name and a governorship.
Interesting.
"There is only one race, the human race" - The Neville Brothers
Kerry,
Submitted by OlyCop on Wed, 07/04/2007 - 7:15am.You'd better check your sources
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Wed, 07/04/2007 - 7:17am.John Kerry served his country honorably as a war hero - George W. Bush
Now...maybe this is where Bush is a liar?
You make the choice
"There is only one race, the human race" - The Neville Brothers
Clinton lied to save face
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 2:15pm.He lied under oath, and then tried to excuse his lie by saying a blowjob isn't "sexual relations". Call it whatever makes you folks happy, but he committed a crime. A crime that would have gotten ANY other public official fired.
I wouldn't consider his fiasco to be worse than anything bush has done, but you can't convince me that he wasn't doing something wrong (and knew it), that it wasn't EVERYONE's business (commander in chief, think scrutiny) and that he didn't lie, under oath, to his own people.
Remember, it depends on your
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 2:23pm.Nothing like a copula to
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 2:29pm.People in Iraq are dying, Norm
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 2:30pm.Does it really matter what Clinton told himself to justify his lie? You're still equivocating.
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
Rick
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 2:33pm.People are dying all over the world for different reasons. Some of them are good, some are not. If we stopped the world and freaked out everytime and wrong death happend the world would stop spinning.
Yes, it matters to me. It always will. If this bothers you, might I suggest you slowly wind yourself back in the other direction so that your panties will stop getting so twisted?
YikesCome on, we all have
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 2:40pm.Come on, we all have been able to go at it without pot shots before. Maybe we all need to blow some things up and get it out of our systems.
Can't do it in Lacey, but irony of ironies you can do it at the Lacey Community Center because it's not within Lacey city limits (according to Ken Balsley of KGY)
It's not all the same.
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 2:57pm.We're responsible for the deaths that are happening right now. It's not like this is some abstraction. There are people alive right now who will be dead tomorrow because every time someone tried to hold Bush accountable, someone like you said "What about Clinton?"
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
Right
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 4:02pm.So I should spend every moment of my waking day trying to impeach the president? Or?
Rick if you are trying to convince me to be a tofu-eating, non-showering, deoderant-abstaining, hippy protester who likes to get arrested, you are barking up the wrong tree.
If this consumes you so much maybe you should go to Iraq and spread this message among the military. I'm sure you'd be welcomed with open arms across the board over there. Of course you could just stick with the panty suggestion I gave you.
That deserves a response...
Submitted by Phil Owen on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 4:57pm.From the tofu monster!
(Note, I couldn't decide whether to post the tofu-monster or the panty-monster... but I figured the latter might get a little controversial, and my image-posting record could use some improving as of late.)
The Canaanite's Call
As much as I gripe
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 5:02pm.I did have a little bit of tofu last night at lemon grass
...shhhhh don't tell Olycop
Everybody's business?
Submitted by jlw on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 3:10pm.Right, Monica was an intern
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 3:15pm.Public figure
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 3:58pm.He was in the oval office, getting a BJ from an underling.
If I'm a nurse-manager at the nursing home and I have one of the nurses assistants giving me a BJ in my office, am I alright then?
If I'm a cop and I get one of the dispatchers to give me a BJ in my squad car, is that ok?
He was the president Janet. It's our business because he is working for US. He used his office as an oral sex shack. Considering the intern was even there he was probably on company (ours) time. Again, as stated numerous times, I wouldn't care but he LIED about it under oath. Because he felt that a BJ isn't really sex.
So what do you think Janet: He got a BJ from an intern (right off the bat this would get most people fired) in his office (another fireable offense where I work) and then lied about it, not only to the american public, but under oath (not sure if that part is fireable, but it can cause a prison term). Is that right? If this were your boss what would you think if your coworker brought this up to you? Do YOU consider a BJ to be a sexual act? I don't really want to know about his sex life but he brought this on himself. I'm sure he probably wasn't getting any action from his wife, but this is not the way to fix that.
He worked from home. His
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 4:04pm.Reasonable point
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 4:44pm.Sex with a subordinate is wrong, wrong, wrong, Norm. I have to agree with you. Therefore Newt Gingrich, one of the prime Clinton attackers, should have been fired for his activity with his aide, that he eventually left his wife for.
I'm sure the list is longer than just Newt and Bill. How many firings should there be?
"There is only one race, the human race" - The Neville Brothers
I hope you aren't hoping I'll backpedal over Newt!
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 5:00pm.The backpedaling will happen,
Submitted by OlyCop on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 5:51pm.And don't forget...
Submitted by Phil Owen on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 5:03pm....as I mentioned on another post, that Clinton didn't just lie under oath about a fling. He lied to defend himself in a sexual harrassment case. I simply don't understand why people (who otherwise would consider themselves feminists) would stick up for a man who dropped his pants in front of a woman without her consent (not to mention having sex with a subordinate).
Clinton has become a red herring for use by Republicans. This does not, however, warrant defending the guy.
The Canaanite's Call
I hope I don't seem like I'm sticking up for Clinton
Submitted by jlw on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 5:27pm.To be a feminist, must one appoint oneself the bedroom police, and investigate every act of male sexual malfeasance, regardless of the feelings of the woman involved? I hope not.
Lewinsky didn't file the
Submitted by Phil Owen on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 5:35pm.Lewinsky didn't file the lawsuit; Paula Jones sued Clinton for sexual harrassment. She accused him of propositioning her and dropping his pants and exposing his genitals at her.
Jones' attorneys, in an attempt to portray Clinton's character, questioned him on the stand about his sexual affairs. In a sexual harrassment suit, I consider it fair game to question the accused on such matters. It was while on the stand in this lawsuit that Clinton lied about his affair with Lewinsky.
The Canaanite's Call
Thanks Phil
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 5:37pm.Is it fair game?
Submitted by jlw on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 6:11pm.You're talking about a
Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 6:34pm.You're talking about a sitting President vs. a mayoral race for a city of 50,000 people. They don't compare well. Bush, or any President, has a team of press folks with him everywhere he goes, including vacation.
I don't believe it should be public information through any type of required disclosure but if it comes out, it's fair game.
Thanks for straightening that up!
Submitted by jlw on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 6:40pm.Do you deny this is how it
Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 6:41pm."This is how it works"?
Submitted by jlw on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 7:08pm.In this thread
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 7:37pm.heh!
Submitted by jlw on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 9:22pm.Don't personalize so much, Norm
Submitted by jlw on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 5:30pm.Ok, so throw all of that out
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 5:38pm.And forget the personal crap. He lied under oath. Our president lied under oath.
He was a slime-bucket. I liked listening to him speak, but apparently a few women did too.
I'm not really trying to defend Clinton here
Submitted by jlw on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 9:20pm.Agreed. It was wrong, an
Submitted by Meta Hogan on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 4:56pm.Agreed. It was wrong, an abuse of power, sexual harrassment, lied about and impeached for. Now, back to Rick's question: How should we, as the employers of President George W. Bush, hold him accountable for the lies he has told us?
p.s.--maybe we should start a "Clinton" thread and a "Bush" thread, just to keep them distinct. I think they could both use a little distinction!
Question?
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 5:03pm.The only question I saw in Rick's original post was, "The other guy?"
It seemed like more of an accusational statement to me.
Agreed!
Submitted by Phil Owen on Tue, 07/03/2007 - 5:04pm.