Rick, you need to read a history book or two on Attila the Hun. Yes, he and his army would have won by totally crushing their opponets and enslaving every last one of them that had not been killed. History has a funny way of repeating itself from not learning from the past. As I stated earlier, Abu Ghraib was a stupid frat. party. I still can't understand how you beat that dead horse and silently set by as the enemy continues to kill innocent civilians by cowardly bombing them any where they can. What I have found to be true with a very large portion of you "enlightened thinkers" (liberals) is that you have never served your country through the military or anything else and look for thing to complain about while NEVER leaving the confines of this country.
Enlighten me Rob. What "Really" went on there. I don't want to hear speculation from the far left, I want to hear facts. I recieved more "torture" on the football field in the 60s and 70s than these people did. I think that American society has become so gutless any more that it make me sick. It's always someone elses (is that a word) fault about why "Little Johnny" is screwed up. This Republic/Empire is worth keeping alive at ANY cost to include torture. Remember that if it dies you, me or anyone else that wants to speak out would be on the hit parade. History people, we are no more enlightened than past civilizations.
FPK1 -- Ever heard of OGA? The pictures we saw in the media were just the tip of the iceberg. Also, the things you don't know about me could fill a library, so keep your personal comments to yourself, or be labeled as a troll.
You focus on the mistakes that are made by a group of young kids that have been given the task to watch over animals. Yes ANIMALS. These guys continue to come at you. You are more interested in our human right violations and appear to condone theirs with your silence on the issue. These people are no better than the Nazis OF WWII and need to be handled.
Rick, what about free speech? You are the type of person that wants to regulate anything YOU deem offensive. I have no problem of genocide of an enemy like the Nazis. They wiped out millions of innocent people in the gas chambers and people like you don't have the ability to seperate what we (U.S.) do and those animals we feel with do.
Rob, I live a great life and have truely been blessed by God Almighty with a family far better than I could have ever hoped for and a good job.Live is good brother. Every day I wake, I'm thankful of my blessing of being born who I am and in a country that I love. I also live in the real world though and learn from history, which people like you don't. You live in a dream world and think that if we all run around naked in the forest the planets will fall into alignment. It's the soldier that prays for peace more than anyone, because they are the ones that shoulder the horrors and burdens of war. Don't worry though because there will always be Americans out there that will be willing to fight the evil of the world so you can enjoy the freedoms you take for granted.
Sarah,
I too agree with FPK1. (I do agree with him, but I realize you don't. ;-) )
Rob Richards,
I don't sense anger, I sense passion in FPK1, and I mirror his passion.
I disagree with almost everything that Rick has written. And I believe Rick does a good job representing the liberal perspective. I think most of what's wrong with this nation is what the liberals bring to the table. And this country will continue to slouch towards further liberalism. Look at the average Republican, even they are far more liberal than the Truman democrats of years gone by.
Rick,
I understand from reading your bio, you are a doctor. Being a doctor I would assume you are well read. Being one that likely is in a constant pursuit of learning, I'm sure have read the Patriot Act that you make reference to with the reading comment above. Do you really feel we have given up our freedoms with the Patriot Act? Can you give me a single example of a local loss of freedom due to that Act? I can't think of one. And I can tell you that as a Police Officer here in Olympia, we are required to enforce the Patriot Act, (regarless of what the City Council has directed) but we have yet to have a case to investigate and process under the Patriot Act guidelines/mandates.
Hopefully the depraved animals we are fighting in the Middle East don't bring the war to our streets. Because if they do, will you and your liberal friends still sing the same song. How about when your loved one(s) get snatched off the street corner, taken to a secret location and video tape their head being carved off. Or when they go into a local school and kill our kids. Because if they go unchecked, they will come here.
—
"In war there is no substitute for victory" "It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it" -- General Douglas MacArthur
I'm about done with this conversation, 'cause I don't think we're getting anywhere. But one last attempt to make my point: Iraq is not about protecting us from terrorism. I was listening to a guy last night on the radio -- a grunt who just got back from Iraq. The interviewer asked him stright up, "Is the war in Iraq making us safer?" He said: "No. It is the perfect training ground if you want to become a terrorist." This expresses my view perfectly.
My view is that Bush made a mistake by invading Iraq that we will be paying for over the next decade at least. It has made us less safe domestically, it has alienated our allies in the region, and has turned world opinion against us. You may dispute it, but I think we are in a much better position to fight extremists if we are unified as one world against them. The torture issue compounds an already bad mistake.
I travelled to the Soviet Union, and other east block contries in the '80s, and I have complete clarity about what it means to live in a free society as opposed to under totalitarianism. Thankfully, less of the world suffers under that sort of gov't. The ideals of freedom, tolerance, diversity, openness, generosity, and learning that make this a wonderful country. (There are plenty of things to fix, don't get me wrong -- but like Bill Clinton said: "There's nothing wrong with America that can't be fixed by what's right about it.").
All of this noise about defending torture is misplaced. We shouldn't be in this situation in the first place. We only hurt ourselves, and push our long-term goals further away, by hurting defenseless people under our control. Every time torture gets in the news, we inflame more hate of America. It is the most counterproductive thing we could possibly do. And all the research shows that the information isn't worth it. We already know we don't belong there, we just have to get our asses moving out the door.
So, what are we going to do? To my mind, it borders on insanity to overthrow other governments in a direct attempt to intervene on the side of democracy, or any other value you care to name. It has never, ever worked. True conservatives understand this point. Neoconservatives seem to have forgotten it. Communal action, building an international standard that rewards good behavior and consequents bad behavior is more effective. Obviously, there may be situations where we have to kick some ass from time to time, but never alone and never when not absolutely necessary. Just because we can doesn't mean we should. I only wish Shrub had learned this lesson from his dad.
Stevenl, thats all nice and fuzzy but you skirt the question. What would you be willing to accept to keep the freedoms that we have to included speaking out about our govt. without the worry of turning up MIA in the middle of the night?
We don't become like them, because our goal is different.
Our goal is liberty and freedom for that region, and maintain our quality of life here at home.
Their goal is to kill us and destroy what we love here.
These kind of comments get us nowhere, FPK1. There is a lot of EVIDENCE (primary source evidence) that says more went on at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo than just human pyramids and what you write off as "stupid frat party". Now a question. Do you believe, throwing out the word torture, that the actions of Lynndie England et al in the famous photos were human rights violations?
You touch on a good point. We don't know what is going on there. I have heard accounts from people that have been released, after being held and never charged, that there were human rights violations taking place. That these things happened to them. There were also physical signs of abuse on their bodies. I have read these accounts and seen the pictures. The scars clearly did not come from a human pyramid or some of the other frat party activity. It looked like severe beatings.
Not knowing, in my opinion is dangerous. Our government has become insular, even when it comes to us, the citizens that they are elected to serve. The fact that human rights violations are going on unchecked is a little scary to me. The lack of transparency in our government is also scary to me.
I'm willing to imagine for a second that all that has happened is what England and others have been charged with. Even if that is as bad as it gets, it shows a systemic acceptance of abuse. The government and military did a good job of convincing people that these were isolated incidents by rogue soldiers. I don't buy that. Having served in the military, I know that when you are a soldier, sailor, airman, or marine, you follow orders. I'm not saying they were ordered to commit the specific crimes that they did, I'm saying that the chain of command didn't frown on it enough to put a stop to it. Therefore it falls on the higher chain of command to be accountable, at the very least, they need to make sure these kinds of things do not happen again. The abuses at Abu Ghraib, the ones that were publicized, were not examples of intelligence gathering. They were examples of humans being treated like garbage.
Our actions have to reflect our expectations. That's my bottom line.
In the name of fighting terror, we have terrorized, and in the name of defending our values, we have betrayed them. We have imprisoned Muslims in America and refused to say if we had them, why we had them, or even to provide them attorneys. We have passed laws making it easier for government to snoop into what you read, who you talk to, where you go. We have equated dissent with lack of patriotism, disagreement with treason. And we have tortured.
Yes, Bush says we don't do that kind of thing but, to paraphrase Groucho Marx, who you going to believe, him or your lying eyes?
We ignore our lying eyes, I think, because we are afraid, because we saw what happened Sept. 11 and we never want to see it again. I'd never suggest we ought not fear terrorism. But we should also fear the nation we are becoming in response. We should fear the fact that we have abrogated moral authority, retreated from moral high ground, become like those we once chastised.
We're not in danger of losing the war on terror. We're in danger of losing our humanity.
Rick: I agree with you about being in Iraq. It's very questionable about the doctrine (the Bush Doctrine) which has gotten us in the situation in the first place. We are a country which has become far too involved with foreign affairs, ranging from the United Nations to preemptive warfare.___On the other hand I also more than agree with the sentiment that, since we're there, we should do everything possible to ensure it's a winning mistake and not a losing one. I would rather we make a mistake and at least achieve goals favorable to the U.S. than make a mistake without any benefits.___I don't think anyone is going to come away from here changing minds or saying, "You got me there." It is interesting, though, to get a glimpse of the mindset each side of the spectrum is in.
Rick & Rob, war is an evil thing, but as long as there are evil people out there we must deal with them harshly. If it came down to losing our country and way of life what would you guys being willing to accept? Torture of the enemy? Just curious......We need a new topic. What about those SEAHAWKS? LOL
That's probably the first time anyone has accused Dostoevsky of being warm and fuzzy. Becoming like them means we lose that freedom anyway, so what is the point of throwing away what you are trying to protect in order to protect it? The whole left/right way of viewing the world is pretty outmoded by this point. It boils down to authoritarian/libertarian, I'd say. Just curious, do you think we are more free or less free since the Cold War came to an end?
Please take a moment and think about what you're saying. Do you really think these people are blowing themselves up because they hate our culture? What the extremists are doing is unspeakably wrong, but their goals are not that different from ours. ObL's expressed objective is to eject us from their holy lands. Stop buying the "Clash of Culture" b.s. and examine the facts:
We take the resources from their country and support dictatorial regimes in order to do so (e.g., the royal family in S.A.).
We topple gov'ts when it suits us (e.g., Mossadeq, Saddam), and we support dictators when it suits us (e.g., Saddam, the Shah of Iran).
We give a lot of money to Israel, a country that has been oppressing Palastinians since its inception.
We unilaterally invaded a sovereign country on false pretenses, and are presently occupying that country.
I think any American can understand what it means to want to escape oppresion of a foreign empire. This in no way is an endorsement of the tactics used by extremists, but unless we understand why they are acting the way the are, we will never have the right strategy to deal with it effectively.
Just as a question, because I think of much of this discussion can boil down to it: Would you be willing to win the War on Terror and lose your humanity? Or lose your humanity and win the War on Terror?___I think the real life example of this can probably be seen in the decision which went into dropping both atomic bombs.
Hopefully the 'Hawks don't pull off their usual second half. They shouldn't, since the schedule is in their favor and this team is much better than in the past but it's happened before.___Pretty good article. Doesn't dispute whether or not torture is effective (at least on some scale), just whether employing it is acceptable.
The fourth point, at least to me, is irrelevent in the context of whether there is a "Clash of Culture." If anything, I view Iraq as the "Clash" coming to a head.___If you would like to start a new thread on the other points I would be happy to post in there.
TFI: It is a false dilemma. It was not necessary to drop the a-bomb (at least on people). Just think about it. What if we had dropped the bomb on a deserted island in the pacific? Then we negotiated terms of surrender. It would be a different world that we live in right now.
You mean that addresses what revisionist historians have now promoted, saying we should have invited Japanese delegates to the desert and showed them a test run? Sure, I'll address that.___It's complete and utter garbage. First of all, we DID warn the Japanese people after Little Boy that we had another bomb and signaled our intentions that, if they did not agree to unconditional surrender, we would use it. The military leadership in Japan wasn't going to surrender. It just was not going to happen. Regarding civilian casualties, we killed far more in firebombing than we did with the atomic bombs. In the long run, more civilian and military lives were saved rather than having the U.S. continue with conventional warfare by having to launch an invasion of the island (not to forget the Russians, too.).___Now, to answer the question that addresses the issue. Yes, I support using unconventional tactics to ensure the Empire doesn't meet its demise. I wouldn't continue with such tactics forever, simply long enough for a clear and decisive victory in favor of the U.S.
Dude: It is not revisionist to talk about history -- and to analyze it. That's how we learn from it. I'm sure you know that not everyone agrees that three days was enough time for the Japanese gov't to understand the full extent of the destruction wreaked by the first bomb.
Look, why all this talk about "Empire"? Do you think some fringe radical extremists can bring down the American Empire? It is not going to happen like that. What will happen, though, is that we may become (and perhaps are) a pariah around the world. We may cut ourselves off from the ties that we need to grow economically and to promote justice in the world.
You've alluded to the fact that you don't have much confidence in the Bush administration. Then why defend it in this all-or-nothing way? Wasn't it the Bush administration who sold us this bill of goods about the crusade of cultures? I see too many false choices in your arguments.
Point to you "talk[ing] about history" (not being sarcastic, I just get a bit riled up after hearing the various "The bomb was a mistake"-arguments. I think it's easy to criticize the decision long after the fact than it is when you're actually living it.).___The American Empire is not going to crumble in one night (well, probably won't crumble after one night. Like Harry in "Dumb and Dumber," I believe there's always a chance for anything, no matter how small it might be). I do believe, though, that fringe radical extremists (both from the extreme left and the extreme right) slowly chip away at the foundation, making the decline much more gradual. When we collapse, or at least lose our power in the world, it won't be because of a single event. It will be because of a series of events over the course of decades, if not centuries.___First of all, I do believe a collision of cultures that was bound to happen, long before "W" ever stepped into office. It was simply a matter of time before it spilled over. You cannot continue to go decades with various skimishes and conflicts between two completely separate cultures and not expect it to one day reach a breaking point. The problem, however, is dealing with the situation.___If I were president after 9/11 (because, really, that's the point where the Executive had a chance to start a clean slate in the Middle East and write a new agenda in the region), this is what I would have done: The invasion of Afghanistan was the correct thing to do. I would have used a massive force movement, though, preventing anyone from entering or exiting the country, sealing the borders (and, to make clear, this wouldn't have been the U.S.-Mexican border. Nobody would be coming in or leaving, even if it meant using lethal force on those doing so). Building the Afghani infrastructure would have been the first priority. Now, I know there are a great deal of questions regarding the intelligence prior to the conflict in Iraq. It's not, however, clear-cut. I don't think this conflict was drawn up in a dark room in Crawford. U.S. policy since the first Bush has maintained that Iraq was hiding weapons. If this wasn't true the Clinton administration would have either backed away from this policy or debunked it. Neither happened. Regardless, the problem of Saddam Hussein needed to be dealt with, if only to end the Cat and Mouse game. Assassination, in my opinion, would have been the best option. I know the capabilities of our intelligence agencies is not nearly what Jack Ryan has to work with but I would hope they are at least capable of carrying out a covert assassination and pinning it on a rival faction within the country. By eliminating Hussein (and, if possible, his sons) we could have potentially sent the country into chaos, which would have prompted the UN to request peacekeeping forces be sent in to stabilize the situation.___I think by using these two options far less American dollars and American lives would have been spent.___And then finally, to deal with other countries in the region, I would have ordered all private interests exit the region immediately and, in front of the American people, told them we are setting an immediate timetable for eliminating Middle Eastern crude. Before oil was discovered in the Middle East, these countries had no influence. It's time we pulled out and let them choke on themselves. Would we have to make sacrifices in the short term? Sure. In the long run, however, these countries would have to come back to the bargaining table without leverage (assuming they too didn't plunge into civil conflict). Even if they did fall into civil conflict, it would be for the better. The hope would be that a more modern (re: Western) government would emerge.___It would have sent a clear signal that we will deal quickly with any threat to our nation.___Of course, back in '91, we should have shamed the international community into coming to Baghdad with us. The opportunity was ripe.
Thanks Rick. Dostoevsky wrote this in Notes from the House of the Dead:
"Whoever has experienced the power, the complete ability to humiliate another human being ... with the most extreme humiliation, willy-nilly loses power over his own sensations. Tyranny is a habit, it has a capacity for development, it develops finally into a disease ... The human being and citizen die within the tyrant forever; return to humanity, to repentance, to regeneration becomes almost impossible."
If we have to become like our enemies to defeat our enemies then we become our enemies and the enemies have won.
stevenl: "If we have become like our enemies to defeat our enemies than we become our enemies and the enemies have won."___I don't mean to attack you at all, it's just that this quote is what I was talking about earlier. The perception of wins and losses has become more important in the mindset of Americans today than the actual wins and losses themselves.
Thanks Fire. I have a feeling if we get into perception vs. reality this thread will get even weirder, but you have a good point. My whole take on the erosion of our domestic freedoms could be summed up in this line I heard from a comedian when Iraq first started to form their new government: "Iraq needs a new Constitution. Let's give them ours, we're not using it."
The Christian defense for justified conflict comes from the Old Testament. God certainly wasn't one to shy away from conflict.___Not a Biblical scholar and, to be quite honest, don't know as much as I should but, I don't think Jesus ever promoted "killing and war." I don't think He said it wasn't unnecessary at times, either, though. If Sunday School served me well, I do remember the Jesus depicted in Revelation as being a warrior (the first time coming as a servant).___You'd be better off asking this question of a few local pastors.
Worth reading the article "American Rapture" by Craig Unger, in Vanity Fair Dec. 2005. Very informative and enlightening. Many evangelical Christians believe that they will get "'raptured' up to heaven, leaving secular humanists to perish in an epic bloodbath." Christ is a warrior and blood flows.
Article includes info on Tim LaHaye's best selling thrillers detailing how all this will come down. Best selling as in more than 63 million copies sold. Tours and workshops and conferences are ongoing.
I can't find it on Google. Do you know where a link to the article would be located? I don't see an archieved section on Vanity Fair's website, either.___Hopefully this isn't the first exposure to the theology in the Book of Revelation. I would hope people would have at least a basic understanding of the Rapture in this day in age, since it's been part of the evangelical Christian movement for at least the last 15-20 years.
I looked for a link before I posted, I can't find one either. Copy of mag can probably be picked up at library if you don't want to pay for one.
I knew some about the Book of Revelation, just wasn't aware of how very very deeply people take it now. Also did not understand how our environment is viewed: we own it, use it up any way we want, no need to be concerned about preservation, because the Rapture is soon.
The Seattle Weekly has an article Divine Destruction about "wise use", dominion theology, and our environmental policy.
Rob W.
I’m guessing you are a non-believer based on your post.
That being what it may, some non-believers are well informed about bible. Again, you obviously are not. TFI brings up some good points, and I will add some additional comments.
Remember, Jesus is God. Our God is a Triune God. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. So Jesus is God, and has been around for all time. So like TFI says in his post, the God of the Old Testament (The Father), sent his people out to do war many times for his purpose.
Also the New Testament speaks to governments being able to make war, enforce their laws, and even carry out death sentences for violations of those laws. Because God gave his authority to governments on Earth, even a simple violation of law like speeding is a sin in the Christian belief system.
It is kind of sad that an American Woman of college age would not recognize a Marine uniform. She was obviously a very naïve young lady, and her mind was likely very fertile to the hyper-liberal spew that comes out of TESC. She probably brain washed well.
DD, Rob, I believe in Jesus; deeply. I think the big deal with Jesus is that he spoke out against violence, with a "turn the other cheek" attitude, he rejected the idea of vengeance and preached forgiveness of each other and our trespasses.
Do you think she was brainwashed, or just, "probably brain-washed?"
I think you're quick to judge her, did you know her well? I don't think the article mentioned her name.
Your god doesn't sound like much fun. Why would anyone want to believe in someone who would want to have you killed? I disagree with Fundamentalists' and their literal interpretation of the bible. Deep Diver, your comments about your god sending folks out to wage war for his purpose is the scariest fundamentalist belief. Who decides when and who we invade? Do you honestly believe that god talks to George Bush? Out of all of the people he could use as a vessel, god chooses this guy? The lord works in mysterious ways, I guess.
This is no different than the muslim suicide bombers. They are true believers. Fundamentalist Christians are true believers. They hate America because we are controlled by fundamentalist Christians and we fuck with them. Fundamentalist Christians, particularly the ones in power, hate them because they are Muslim and fuck with us.
I just think that if we have to be lead by the bible, I would rather be lead by the words of Jesus, not the crap in the old testament, or the fire and brimstone death and destruction ending that the people with their fingers on the button are sitting around drooling in anticipation, waiting for the lord to give the signal so they can be the ones to kick start the armageddon.
What would be wrong with peace? If we took the first step, wouldn't others follow? I believe they would. You might say, "That's too big of a risk, as soon as we put down our wepons they're going to shoot at us." Well, maybe, but I doubt it. Remember, before we invade countries, we give them weapons, and I'm sure we're careful not to give them too much. The best analogy of the neo-cons' strategy that I've heard is from comedian Bill Hicks. He said that America is like Jack Palance in the movie Shane, where he throws the pistol at the sheepherder's feet and demands that he pick it up. The sheepherder doesn't want to pick it up, doesn't want any trouble. Palance demands that he picks it up. Relunctantly, he bends down and picks up the gun. Before he can even think, Jack Palance guns him down. "You all saw it, he had a gun."
Not going to get into the theology debate but that's a pretty big risk you're willing to take with what is essentially a "We don't need no stinkin' military"-approach. Granted, there are people out there who don't want trouble and wish to be left alone but it's naive to believe there are not or will not be anyone who would buck the trend.___This is why, in a group of sheep, the wolf preveils without a dog to defend them. To simply assume that a wolf will not come along is very, very naive.___Do you lock your door at night? If so, why? You haven't asked for trouble so, under this reasoning, trouble shouldn't come your way. If you are willing to put an entire country at risk without national defense, why wouldn't you be willing to put your home at risk?
Turning off your TV won't do much as far as preventing people from being "sheep." Also, I didn't mean sheep in the sense of a follower because that's another discussion. I simply meant sheep as in a peaceful animal who, so long as they are with other sheep, get along quite nicely. It's when a wolf is introduced into the mix that things take a turn for the worse. If there's no dog to protect the sheep, well, the situation won't have a remedy other than the sheep being at the mercy of the wolf.
Rob, I never said God was fun. Clearly he is a God of love, but he’s definitely a God of wrath as well. He is a just God, but to use some of your gutter talk, don’t piss him off.
I never said anything about God talking to President Bush, but God talks to me, and I him. It’s called prayer, you might want to try it sometime. Who knows, you might like it.
Big difference between Fundamentalist Christians and the Fundamentalist Muslims. We Christians aren’t lopping heads off innocent people with a butter knife. They hate us. True Christians don’t hate others. We might hate their sinful behavior, but not the person. True, Fundamentalist Christians may go after things that affect the freedoms of non-believers, (abortion, porno, etc. all things we CAN’T do without)(lol) but they don’t kill innocent people to make their point, the enemy does.
Now the Americans in this country that have some common sense know it is a good thing to fight this war in the Middle East. Have there been errors? Absolutely! And President Bush has some issues he needs to work on, like some restrait on his check writing. But his leadership in the war on terror is vastly superior than anything we would have gotten from the “dove
Some people who are Christians do kill innocent people, including Iraqi citizens, to make their point. Some people who are Christians have even killed innocent people by decapitation.
Our friends in Saudi Arabia practice state sponsored public beheadings.
Some people who are Christians work for nonviolent solutions to conflict. Some people who are Muslims work for nonviolent solutions to conflict.
I hope by tying the hands you are not referring to banning torture. I only think about this because that's the talking point used by Cheney et al while fighting Mcain's torture ban recently.
I don't pray to "God". I do, however, go for walks or sit at my desk and think deeply, almost meditatively about choices that I am faced with. To me, this is no different than prayer. The reason I have a problem with organized religion is because I would rather put my faith in myself than in a god. I think we all control our destiny, and there very likely may be a god. I just don't think that he controls us, I don't think he guides us daily. I believe that god is an observer of his great experiment.
I also don't see huge differences between the various religions of the world. Except for the fundamentalist wings. Even fundamentalist Buddhists have been violent. It seems like they all tell similar stories with similar morals. Shouldn't we try to unite around that instead of dividing ourselves by little differences?
Finally, I am not a pacifist, I don't believe that violence is not necessary. If I am attacked I will defend myself. I will choose my life over someone else's if it comes down to that. I would not hunt down my attackers and kill them, however. I would seek justice.
Rob Richards,
No I wasn’t parroting our VP.
As far as torture, I have no problem using torture. If torturing 20 enemy combatants saves even one American life, it’s time well spent. And when I talk about torture, I mean REAL torture, not the wimpy stuff they are talking about now. The stuff that is in debate right now, for the most part,is discomfort and humiliation.
Real torture should only be used as a last resort, and only when the information that one is trying to obtain is gravely critical for the security of this Nation. The wimpy stuff they use now, I believe could be used almost in a routine fashion if standard interrogation doesn’t work.
Rob W.
I'm guessing your comment about my misspelling brainwashed, was some how meant as a slam. Actually there are several typos in my above posts. And likely there will be some in the future. Because unlike Christ, and maybe you, I'm not perfect. If all you have to attack is a typo, I guess you must be at a loss to defend or continue the debate.
As for judging, I wasn't judging her, it was an observation based on the content of the story and what comes out of TESC. If you focused on my statement instead of my typos or misspellings you might have understood the point I was attempting to make.
As for the teachings of Jesus, maybe we can debate that in another thread. I will say that I'm glad to learn you believe in Jesus, but do you believe he is God? You have to believe he exsisted, that is not in dispute, nor is it in dispute he was a great teacher. What is in dispute, by secularists, Jews, Muslims, etc. is "was he God".
I've been listening to John McCain a lot lately. He's the biggest anti-torture guy out there right now. He was captured and torture in Vietnam, and I'm sure has done some research on the subject. It is his conclusion that torture is not an effective way to gather intelligence, because when someone is tortured, they will say whatever they think their captors want to hear to make the pain stop. Some of the stories coming out of Gitmo and other prisons talk of electrodes and severe beatings. I not sure what your definition of torture is, but mine definetly includes those tactics I mentioned. If we are using those tactics right now, we should stop.
This is a pretty big debate and one that I don't think is answered very easily. McCain is obviously coming from personal experience but, in my own opinion, the torture that has taken place under communism (mainly under Mao's China and North Vietnam) didn't care whether a confession was true or not. Our madness has a method to it, if you will. I don't think (again, none of us really know so it's mainly speculation) we simply hold a piece of paper out for someone to sign as a confession and torture them until they sign it. I would think/hope we have a clear goal in mind.___Normally I would come down on the side of protecting the individual. However, I think in this case, ensuring the Republic is able to preveil for another 300 years outweighs human rights concerns.___It's not a black and white issue, that's for sure. There are many elements to both sides of the argument.
I really appreciate your comments, Fire. To me, deciding to torture someone for the sake of the republic (empire), is to say that this person should not be allowed the same human rights that we expect. Allowing our guys to torture their guys now opens up the possibility of our guys being tortured in the future. We would surely be against it, and seek action against the abusers. It's a double standard that I'm just not willing to accept.
I fully expect captured Americans to be tortured or even worse.___Here's the problem with the warfare in Iraq and, to be quite honest, globally: The enemy is being allowed to dictate the rules of combat. They have been targeting civilians for decades, blowing up buses, hijacking cruise ships, destroying commercial planes, et cetera. "Soft" targets are their specialty. Yet, somehow, they have been able to sway public opinion AGAINST the United States for accidentally hitting civilian targets.___This has happened time and again. The power of the time (in our case, the United States) is too "proper" to adjust to the rules being written. The enemy, however, doesn't care about being "proper," only about achieving their goal. It's like playing a football game with pass interference being legal for one team and still illegal for the other.___I know this doesn't sit well for a lot of people in the West that we may have to get our hands dirty in order to eliminate the threat (unless, of course, you believe in appeasement. This is another strategy that, historically, has not worked.) and it's going to be a choice that, as a country, we're going to have to make.___Right now the conflict is being fought trying to both make the more aggressive crowd happy while at the same time satisfying those who wish remain within written rules. We have to pick one or the other because, if we continue down the same path, this is not going to end well at all (and I'm far from talking only about Iraq. I'm sure you watch the news. This conflict is global.).
First, we've always gone after soft targets and then said - oh, that hospital, school, mosque was actually a military command center. This is not something that we've proven ourselves to be against. We forced our own citizens into internment camps during WWII. I don't think we've got as squeeky clean a record as some would like to imagine.
I just can't, no matter how hard I try, understand this thinking. I'm talking about people who believe that by waging wars we are creating peace. This makes no sense to me. I'm a journalist, so I have to put my beliefs aside and remain objective while strategizing stories for my paper. I just can't seem to see the rationale of peace through violence. I say that if we want peace we must be peacful. If we set an example, others will follow. Even if the extremists (christian or muslim) don't at first, I'm sure most of the countries of the world would join us in peace. Then taking action against those that use violent wouldn't fall on us all the time. God could take a break and let Allah do some of the peace spreading. They could form an Earth cooperative. Work by consensus.
I don't think we have a clean image at all (since you brought up WWII it would be appropriate to bring up Dresden, Tokyo, and Berlin. All of them victims of firebombing. We also executed many SS guards on the spot. Were these decisions bad? Looking back, sure. Then again, when you're in the midst of fighting for the survival of the Republic, no decision should be taken off the table.). This is the difference, though, in how Americans conducted warfare previously and how we have conducted warfare up to the end of the Second World War. Our only objective was to achieve unconditional surrender at nearly any cost. At the end of the Korean War is when politicians decided they weren't interested in actual wins or losses but instead care more about the perception of a win or loss. Make no mistake, Korea was a loss. We're still dealing with the ramifications of those decisions today. The first Gulf War was also a loss, since we're dealing with the problems today. We can't sit and say, "Well, we didn't see it coming" because we did see it coming. There were many in the U.S. government at the end of Korea and during the first Gulf War who didn't want to stop the mission.___Personally, I blame many of the problems we are facing in the Middle East on the inability of our leaders, from Reagan to Clinton, to put a stop to the growing threat before it became out of control. Rather than come down with a heavy hand when dealing with various situations (the Beiruit Marine bombing, WTC '93, the Bush assassination plot, the "Black Hawk Down"-incident, et cetera) we actually became more passive by pulling troops out and refusing to meet the threat head-on. Now the threat has met us head-on (and yes, 9/11 is a part of this. I'm not speaking about the conflict currently taking place in Iraq, which has now become part of the battle, but overall I'm speaking of a global power struggle between the West and fundamentalist Islam.).
Rob, I don't think you were listening to Fire. Torture is not just used for pure entertainment, but serves a purpose. If it could be used to obtain information that is useful in saving our guys/gals so be it. Stacking a mess of naked guys in a pyramid is a frat. initiation not torture. Lopping a guy's head off with a butter knife would be torture. These people we fight, attack the "average Joe" and as they continually tell you their mission is to wipe you "infidels" (anyone not muslim) off the face of the earth. We as a country have never fought a group of people like this before, to include the Japanese who thought they had a living god with them in the Emperor.
The Japanese are the closest and we had to take controversial measures (in the sense that there is an element to society which still debates how the situation was handled) in order to eliminate that threat.___Here's an article on Veteran's Day from an MSNBC.com writer: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9994096/____There's a part, in the lower section, that highlights the disconnect between how many think the military should be used and how it is used today.
If tourture is so damn effective, why are we getting our asses kicked in Iraq? Why is it that you folks just don't get it that IT DOESN'T WORK! In fact, it does way more harm than good. If there had been no Abu Ghraib, we would have a lot more moderate Arabs on our side against the extremists. Go read Juan Cole, then you can talk about tourture.
We're using our military ineffectively in Iraq. As I said before, we're trying to please both sides.___Honestly, do you think Attila the Hun would be losing in Iraq right now?
There wouldn't be a resistance if Attila were the head of the U.S. military. Cities such as Fallujah would have been burned to the ground quite a long time ago. Ghengis Khan is another example of someone that would have put down any resistance a long, long time ago.
I'm not sure you know what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the reports of torture coming out of Gitmo. The use of electricity and severe beatings and other tactics to get intel. Also, I said that according to Senator McCain, torture does not serve a purpose because the intel cannot be trusted. The prisoner will likely say anything to get the pain to stop. The biggest argument that Cheney and other torture supporters use is that if there is an imminent threat, say, a semi full of explosives somewhere in DC, they need to be able to torture to get that intel quickly. According to McCain and other opponents of torture, this would not work.
TFI,
"Honestly, do you think Attila the Hun would be losing in Iraq right now?"
You hit the nail on the head. And back to my statement, the military's hands are tied.
Rick,
Torture does work, if done correctly and with a focused purpose.
What happened in Abu Ghraib was not torture, just like FPK1 makes reference to it, it was like hazing at best. Abu Ghraib was stupid, and did cause our military some problems, but it wasn't torture. Like I said earlier, the torture techniques we are using now, isn't really torture either.
War sucks, and we need to avoid it if possible. But they drew first blood.
Like TFI said, if you are part of our military and you get captured, you will likely be tortured, fact of war. But we are in this war to win it. So let the warriors do what they do, and we will be done sooner.
Just because a particular something done to me doesn't feel like torture, does not mean that to someone else it is not torture. (Did I just use a double negative?) Various cultures have various deep taboos and other connections.
And speaking of hazing, I know of a local man "hazed" at military school who is still severely disabled from the experience.
This topic reminds me of bullying, another form of violence that is often minimized. A bully asks "Can't you take a joke?" and claims "I was just kidding.".
You are unbending in your belief that torture works, Diver. Why? Do you have firsthand experience? I'd like to see some evidence to support your claim that torture works. I'm talking primary or secondary source stuff, not just what you believe. I've seen a lot written on why torture does not work. If your intent here is to win an argument or prove your point, use evidence and let's have civil discourse. Let's not turn this forum into Crossfire.
"Crossfire" was cancelled. Hopefully the forum doesn't meet a similar fate!___Again, (at least I'm) not talking about simply beating people until they sign a confression. There has to be a psychological element, too. I think one of the best, especially those from the Arab culture, is to have a woman in a position of power over them. Another tactic would be to take two people, one who has no information and another who has a lot of information. You make the person without the information expendible, throwing them from a helicopter, physically torturing them, et cetera. You tell the person with information that this other man has been caught in a lie regarding what he has told Allied forces. The person with the information might begin to think twice about whether the information he gives is accurate or not.___There really is no exact forumla for how information gathering should be conducted. Most of it is going to be based on the feel of a person, whether you think they're going to tell the truth or not and what tactics should be used to extract that information. I don't think, however, we should ever limit ourselves in what options are on the table.
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Comments
Rick, you need to read a hist
Enlighten me Rob. What "Reall
FPK1 -- Ever heard of OGA? T
[update]
OGA = Other Governmental Agency = CIA
Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt
You focus on the mistakes tha
Rick, what about free speech?
Rob, I live a great life and
Sarah, I too agree with F
I'm about done with this conv
My view is that Bush made a mistake by invading Iraq that we will be paying for over the next decade at least. It has made us less safe domestically, it has alienated our allies in the region, and has turned world opinion against us. You may dispute it, but I think we are in a much better position to fight extremists if we are unified as one world against them. The torture issue compounds an already bad mistake.
I travelled to the Soviet Union, and other east block contries in the '80s, and I have complete clarity about what it means to live in a free society as opposed to under totalitarianism. Thankfully, less of the world suffers under that sort of gov't. The ideals of freedom, tolerance, diversity, openness, generosity, and learning that make this a wonderful country. (There are plenty of things to fix, don't get me wrong -- but like Bill Clinton said: "There's nothing wrong with America that can't be fixed by what's right about it.").
All of this noise about defending torture is misplaced. We shouldn't be in this situation in the first place. We only hurt ourselves, and push our long-term goals further away, by hurting defenseless people under our control. Every time torture gets in the news, we inflame more hate of America. It is the most counterproductive thing we could possibly do. And all the research shows that the information isn't worth it. We already know we don't belong there, we just have to get our asses moving out the door.
So, what are we going to do? To my mind, it borders on insanity to overthrow other governments in a direct attempt to intervene on the side of democracy, or any other value you care to name. It has never, ever worked. True conservatives understand this point. Neoconservatives seem to have forgotten it. Communal action, building an international standard that rewards good behavior and consequents bad behavior is more effective. Obviously, there may be situations where we have to kick some ass from time to time, but never alone and never when not absolutely necessary. Just because we can doesn't mean we should. I only wish Shrub had learned this lesson from his dad.
Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt
For anyone who's still up for
Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt
Stevenl, thats all nice and f
We don't become like them, be
“We take the resources from
These kind of comments get us
You touch on a good point. W
Not knowing, in my opinion is dangerous. Our government has become insular, even when it comes to us, the citizens that they are elected to serve. The fact that human rights violations are going on unchecked is a little scary to me. The lack of transparency in our government is also scary to me.
I'm willing to imagine for a second that all that has happened is what England and others have been charged with. Even if that is as bad as it gets, it shows a systemic acceptance of abuse. The government and military did a good job of convincing people that these were isolated incidents by rogue soldiers. I don't buy that. Having served in the military, I know that when you are a soldier, sailor, airman, or marine, you follow orders. I'm not saying they were ordered to commit the specific crimes that they did, I'm saying that the chain of command didn't frown on it enough to put a stop to it. Therefore it falls on the higher chain of command to be accountable, at the very least, they need to make sure these kinds of things do not happen again. The abuses at Abu Ghraib, the ones that were publicized, were not examples of intelligence gathering. They were examples of humans being treated like garbage.
Our actions have to reflect our expectations. That's my bottom line.
De-humanization is the first
Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt
This sums up my feeling on th
Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt
OlyCop, we can certainly agre
Rick: I agree with you about
Rick & Rob, war is an evil th
That's probably the first tim
Please take a moment and thin
- We take the resources from their country and support dictatorial regimes in order to do so (e.g., the royal family in S.A.).
- We topple gov'ts when it suits us (e.g., Mossadeq, Saddam), and we support dictators when it suits us (e.g., Saddam, the Shah of Iran).
- We give a lot of money to Israel, a country that has been oppressing Palastinians since its inception.
- We unilaterally invaded a sovereign country on false pretenses, and are presently occupying that country.
I think any American can understand what it means to want to escape oppresion of a foreign empire. This in no way is an endorsement of the tactics used by extremists, but unless we understand why they are acting the way the are, we will never have the right strategy to deal with it effectively.Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt
I want to chime in here with
Just as a question, because I
Hopefully the 'Hawks don't pu
The fourth point, at least to
There's no question de-humani
TFI: It is a false dilemma.
Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt
Not a big fan of revisionist
So glib. How's about a respo
Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt
You mean that addresses what
Dude: It is not revisionist t
Look, why all this talk about "Empire"? Do you think some fringe radical extremists can bring down the American Empire? It is not going to happen like that. What will happen, though, is that we may become (and perhaps are) a pariah around the world. We may cut ourselves off from the ties that we need to grow economically and to promote justice in the world.
You've alluded to the fact that you don't have much confidence in the Bush administration. Then why defend it in this all-or-nothing way? Wasn't it the Bush administration who sold us this bill of goods about the crusade of cultures? I see too many false choices in your arguments.
Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt
Point to you "talk[ing] about
I feel sorry for you. That's
Thanks Rick. Dostoevsky wrote
"Whoever has experienced the power, the complete ability to humiliate another human being ... with the most extreme humiliation, willy-nilly loses power over his own sensations. Tyranny is a habit, it has a capacity for development, it develops finally into a disease ... The human being and citizen die within the tyrant forever; return to humanity, to repentance, to regeneration becomes almost impossible."
If we have to become like our enemies to defeat our enemies then we become our enemies and the enemies have won.
stevenl: "If we have become
Thanks Fire. I have a feeling
Great story.
What is the deal with religio
The Christian defense for jus
Worth reading the article "Am
Article includes info on Tim LaHaye's best selling thrillers detailing how all this will come down. Best selling as in more than 63 million copies sold. Tours and workshops and conferences are ongoing.
And Bush is right in the thick of all this.
I can't find it on Google. D
I looked for a link before I
I knew some about the Book of Revelation, just wasn't aware of how very very deeply people take it now. Also did not understand how our environment is viewed: we own it, use it up any way we want, no need to be concerned about preservation, because the Rapture is soon.
The Seattle Weekly has an article Divine Destruction about "wise use", dominion theology, and our environmental policy.
Rob W. I’m guessing you
DD, Rob, I believe in Jesus;
Do you think she was brainwashed, or just, "probably brain-washed?"
I think you're quick to judge her, did you know her well? I don't think the article mentioned her name.
Judge not - lest ye be judged yourself.
Your god doesn't sound like m
This is no different than the muslim suicide bombers. They are true believers. Fundamentalist Christians are true believers. They hate America because we are controlled by fundamentalist Christians and we fuck with them. Fundamentalist Christians, particularly the ones in power, hate them because they are Muslim and fuck with us.
I just think that if we have to be lead by the bible, I would rather be lead by the words of Jesus, not the crap in the old testament, or the fire and brimstone death and destruction ending that the people with their fingers on the button are sitting around drooling in anticipation, waiting for the lord to give the signal so they can be the ones to kick start the armageddon.
What would be wrong with peace? If we took the first step, wouldn't others follow? I believe they would. You might say, "That's too big of a risk, as soon as we put down our wepons they're going to shoot at us." Well, maybe, but I doubt it. Remember, before we invade countries, we give them weapons, and I'm sure we're careful not to give them too much. The best analogy of the neo-cons' strategy that I've heard is from comedian Bill Hicks. He said that America is like Jack Palance in the movie Shane, where he throws the pistol at the sheepherder's feet and demands that he pick it up. The sheepherder doesn't want to pick it up, doesn't want any trouble. Palance demands that he picks it up. Relunctantly, he bends down and picks up the gun. Before he can even think, Jack Palance guns him down. "You all saw it, he had a gun."
Not going to get into the the
I'm sorry to burst your assum
I'm sure there are some preve
Also, maybe we should turn of
Turning off your TV won't do
Rob, I never said God was fu
I'll dive into this conversat
Some people who are Christians do kill innocent people, including Iraqi citizens, to make their point. Some people who are Christians have even killed innocent people by decapitation.
Our friends in Saudi Arabia practice state sponsored public beheadings.
Some people who are Christians work for nonviolent solutions to conflict. Some people who are Muslims work for nonviolent solutions to conflict.
I hope by tying the hands you
I don't pray to "God". I do, however, go for walks or sit at my desk and think deeply, almost meditatively about choices that I am faced with. To me, this is no different than prayer. The reason I have a problem with organized religion is because I would rather put my faith in myself than in a god. I think we all control our destiny, and there very likely may be a god. I just don't think that he controls us, I don't think he guides us daily. I believe that god is an observer of his great experiment.
I also don't see huge differences between the various religions of the world. Except for the fundamentalist wings. Even fundamentalist Buddhists have been violent. It seems like they all tell similar stories with similar morals. Shouldn't we try to unite around that instead of dividing ourselves by little differences?
Finally, I am not a pacifist, I don't believe that violence is not necessary. If I am attacked I will defend myself. I will choose my life over someone else's if it comes down to that. I would not hunt down my attackers and kill them, however. I would seek justice.
Rob Richards, No I wasn’
I've been listening to John M
This is a pretty big debate a
I really appreciate your comm
I fully expect captured Ameri
I don't agree with you. Fi
First, we've always gone after soft targets and then said - oh, that hospital, school, mosque was actually a military command center. This is not something that we've proven ourselves to be against. We forced our own citizens into internment camps during WWII. I don't think we've got as squeeky clean a record as some would like to imagine.
I just can't, no matter how hard I try, understand this thinking. I'm talking about people who believe that by waging wars we are creating peace. This makes no sense to me. I'm a journalist, so I have to put my beliefs aside and remain objective while strategizing stories for my paper. I just can't seem to see the rationale of peace through violence. I say that if we want peace we must be peacful. If we set an example, others will follow. Even if the extremists (christian or muslim) don't at first, I'm sure most of the countries of the world would join us in peace. Then taking action against those that use violent wouldn't fall on us all the time. God could take a break and let Allah do some of the peace spreading. They could form an Earth cooperative. Work by consensus.
I don't think we have a clean
Rob, I don't think you were l
The Japanese are the closest
If tourture is so damn effect
Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt
We're using our military inef
I believe it is axiomatic --
Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt
There wouldn't be a resistanc
I'm not sure you know what I'
TFI, "Honestly, do you thi
"...they drew blood first..."
Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt
Just because a particular som
And speaking of hazing, I know of a local man "hazed" at military school who is still severely disabled from the experience.
This topic reminds me of bullying, another form of violence that is often minimized. A bully asks "Can't you take a joke?" and claims "I was just kidding.".
You are unbending in your bel
"Crossfire" was cancelled. H
Torture is not a good way to
As for saying that a certain practice is not "really" torture, are we going to tell victims that they don't "really" have PTSD?