In the Bad Name of Nihilism

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In the Bad Name of Nihilism

Submitted by Ehver Green on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 4:24pm.

Somebody who reads here, or posts here, knows something about this heinous crime. It's absolutely cowardly. You losers and morons keep on keeping on. One day it will catch up with you. If you have any information surrounding these events I hope you'll do the right thing and contact OPD.

Vandals strike Olympia councilman's downtown business

Kingsbury has done a 180 on Camp Quixote - many of us have, including me. He's not on record (that I can find) when it comes to the controversial rezone. So, what's really at the root of this vandalism?

UPDATE: NAG's Internet post mentioned in the above article. NAG == Not Another Group

Ehver Green's blog
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Here's what I expect to

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 4:35pm.

Here's what I expect to hear:

1. They're not really Anarchists.

2. Compared to what the US is doing in Iraq this is no big deal.

3. It's ART!

As pointed out elsewhere there are councilmembers who are already on record supporting the rezone - why aren't they the ones targetted?

Perhaps it's a Red Herring, where those in support of the Rezone are actually the ones trying to intimidate Jeff.

Or, perhaps since Kingsbury is openly gay, this is nothing more than a hate crime of opportunity.

This is terrible.

Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 4:45pm.

I hope whoever did this is discovered and forced to do about 8,000 hours of community service downtown.

oh, and,

"Here's what I expect to hear:

1. They're not really Anarchists."

According to the article, they claim to be nihilists, so they're not really anarchists.

So what's the difference,

Submitted by Ehver Green on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 4:53pm.

So what's the difference, Rob? Text book definitions have them one in the same.

Personally, I won't lump them in anarchy ranks. It's partly why I titled the post the way I did. Anarchy has brought about good change at times. This, not so much.

Merwyn's #2 I won't even debate. It's a fools argument. #3 makes no sense to me. I suppose the tagging on Sound Transit's new train was art as well.

Thanks for asking,

Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 5:05pm.

In my opinion at least, and I have a somewhat learned opinion as I read about political theory all across the spectrum:

Anarchism is a social contruct in which people don't believe in centralized government, but believe in cooperation and order at a small, community level. Nihilism is a rejection of moral principles. In my opinion, the two are incomparable in that they describe beliefs on different levels, one societal or political, and the other being philosophical or moral. They are both values based but they apply to different things. You could technically be both anarchist and nihilist, but you'd have to go live off on your own somewhere because you wouldn't want to live with other people, and they wouldn't want to live with you either.

Oh, and I performed a quick scan of the internet definitions of both words and couldn't find two that were the same. They kind of sound somewhat the same but I think if you consider what I wrote above and reread them, you'll see how they are different.

Thanks - I've changed the

Submitted by Ehver Green on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 5:08pm.

Thanks - I've changed the title to reflect your comment.

Need some help Rob?

Submitted by Keith Hufnagel on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 9:04pm.

If you are in need of community service I would like to volunteer because I am inspired by the good things you have done for the community. Tell me what times you need help and I am happy to try to fit it into my schedule. You can email me at keithhufnagel@gmail.com.

Kids took the easy target

Submitted by Keith Hufnagel on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 9:34pm.

Meanwhile Merwyn is spot on. You see the value in this group like a true American. You are an asset to our community. It would be an honor and a pleasure to meet a person with your dedication to community.

Heinous?

Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 4:46pm.

I was expecting a lot more when I clicked on the link. Anyway, I agree it wasn't a very nice thing to do to Jeff and hope it doesn't happen to anyone else. Not sure what Mer's predictions are all about. I think most people would agree that this is a bad way to treat a fellow citizen.

When you write the post you

Submitted by Ehver Green on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 5:13pm.

When you write the post you can choose any word(s) you want. Sound fair?

Merwyn was playing devil's advocate highlighting the typical type of response this would receive from active posters on Olyblog.

Well, now we know...

Submitted by Rick on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 5:37pm.

...what's "typical" according to Merwyn. In the real world, I've never seen any evidence to suggest that an OlyBlogger would say anything like that. What it amounts to, as far as I can tell, is an easy way to bash OlyBlog, which never seems to go out of fashion.

Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt

Now, now, Rick.

Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 5:42pm.

Let's not let this one get ugly.

Are you seriously telling me

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 9:24pm.

Are you seriously telling me that in previous articles covering acts of vandalism that nobody on this blog claimed it was better than the empty wall it covered?

Are you seriously telling me that when various assaults, vandalisms and other crimes have been covered that certain Olybloggers, including a Docent, haven't poo-poo'd it in comparison to the Iraqi atrocities?

And while I made a mistake with the Anarchism-Nihilism thing (looks like I wasn't alone there) are you seriously telling me that a certain gentleman of Olyblog isn't quick to point out his understanding of the term and its proper placement?

I've heard of denial, but really...I suppose I can say that I've never posted volatile comments cursing out Docents.

Are you trying to have a conversation with

Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 10:00pm.

"the borg." Try again when you want to have a conversation with people you've sat down and had a drink with. Come on Merwyn. This is getting ridiculous.

Merwyn:

Submitted by Rick on Thu, 07/10/2008 - 6:31am.

When you ignore the careful and nuanced conversation on this topic on OlyBlog, including the balance between different social values, you do violence to this community (not unlike the vandalism that you condemn). Mindless generalizations of the form: "Somebody on this blog once said X, thus everyone on the blog believes X" have no place in a civil discussion.

Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt

At least you made me

Submitted by Ehver Green on Thu, 07/10/2008 - 12:13pm.

At least you made me laugh. You can bring up social values, careful conversations, whatever you'd like, but until you're ready to have a frank discussion about this type of behavior in Olympia, I'm not interested. Cut through the crap and let's address the criminal aspect. And please, stop hanging it on class. You broke off that hook long ago.

Let's have that conversation

Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 07/10/2008 - 1:21pm.

Where exactly would you like to begin? Most of us appear to agree this was the wrong thing to do.

Frank discussion

Submitted by Sarah on Thu, 07/10/2008 - 4:43pm.

EG - are you insisting that Rick express himself only in a particular fashion, otherwise you will not listen?

Is there a possibility that you really are not hearing him?

Okay, to focus on me talking with you here - I'm a regular poster - I don't support criminal actions including vandalism.

I do what I can. I do not have the energy nor the desire to shout until you believe I've shouted enough about this fact - that I do not support vandalism.

So what do I do? If I have information I tell OPD. I write things just like I'm writing now.

Is it important to you that I feel anger about criminal actions? Well, yes, yes I do.

Is it important to you that I express this anger here on OlyBlog with lots of sweeping generalizations? Is it important to you that I scapegoat others? Is it important to you that I make broad assumptions about who is doing what and why? Sorry - ain't gonna happen.

Why do you see OlyBlog as a monolith? You are an OlyBlogger yourself.

To take an example of a recent criminal action in Olympia that I am more versed in - rock throwing on May Day - I do not support criminal actions. In fact, this rock throwing stuff really pisses me off.

Does all of OlyBlog support criminal actions? Why no, no they do not.

Is there any possibility you can express your heartfelt anger and frustration without scapegoating people here?

Nothing to do with fairness

Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 5:59pm.

Just trying to catch a stray hyperbole before it makes it to Yauger Park and eats all the kitties. My question about Merwyn was rhetorical of course. He was just being himself.

Why did they do it? I have no idea. I'd like to know that myself. Wish they wouldn't do it again.

I'm an active poster

Submitted by Sarah on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 6:05pm.

I don't support vandalism.

It is just not a poor way to

Submitted by wilson on Thu, 07/10/2008 - 4:05pm.

It is just not a poor way to treat someone. It is much more serious than that. Intimidation of an elected official is incredibly serious. In a way they are trying to intimidate the will of the citizens. By doing this to an elected official the crime becomes very serious

I guess we have different interpretations of

Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 07/10/2008 - 4:34pm.

"a poor way to treat someone." Treating someone...anyone...poorly is quite serious in my book. But I appreciate your more nuanced interpretation of of the offense.

Interesting...

Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 6:06pm.

I read the NAG post. Among other things, they describe them selves: "...NAG is the burning school and the clogged toilet."

I know that someone has been repeatedly clogging the toilet at Ralph's. Hmmmm. I sure don't know anyone with such an affection for vandalism. Annoying lot for sure.

More on NAG

Submitted by Sarah on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 6:11pm.

more NAG

No, I don't support them.

Nihilist Assault Group-Now that's Funny!

Submitted by Laurian on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 6:40pm.

From The Big Lebowski:

Bunny Lebowski: Uli doesn't care about anything. He's a Nihilist.
The Dude: Ah, that must be exhausting.

best movie ever

Submitted by Sarah on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 6:43pm.

I love that movie, thanks for putting in that dialogue!

Hollywood is weak...

Submitted by Keith Hufnagel on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 8:55pm.

...Olympia is strong. Notice that NAG are kids who are in support of at least the idea of Quixote. If these kids were in support of another middle east invasion the Army would recruit them faster than Jack in the Box.

??

Submitted by wilson on Thu, 07/10/2008 - 4:10pm.

I can guess why Kingsbury was targeted

Submitted by OlyDowntowner on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 8:52pm.

Not that I think it was okay to vandalize his building, but I can understand why he's a target over other council members. He's just plain rude and nasty to people. I have seen some shocking behavior at City Council meetings. He treats people, the citizens he serves, with contempt. That kind of behavior doesn't invite dialogue, it creates resentment.

Or...

Submitted by Keith Hufnagel on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 9:01pm.

...Jeff's attitude represents dedication to an economic system that Jeff feels is good for the economy as a whole. Jeff didn't create resentment; his dissenters did; irresponsibly; which is okay. We all do this. I would be more inclined to talk to a dissenter than a follower. Lets open the dialogue with NAG instead of belittling them.

Let's not get lost in the

Submitted by OlyDowntowner on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 9:04pm.

Let's not get lost in the ether. Jeff's behavior has created resentment, regardless of his politics or his dedication to an economic system. These are real people we're talking about, not representations of ideas.

Huh?

Submitted by Keith Hufnagel on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 9:19pm.

Ether? The Plays support low-income folks who devote their entire lives to theatre in Olympia. As a musician I am left feeling belittled by your comment.

YOU feel belittled?

Submitted by OlyDowntowner on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 10:11pm.

Your comment was extremely belittling. Maybe you should direct some of this sensitivity toward other people.

Jeff does have a caustic sense of humor

Submitted by Laurian on Thu, 07/10/2008 - 5:29am.

and therefore is one of the funniest men in Olympia. He is also intelligent, compassionate and talented. Don't diss the King, man!

Caustic humor is one thing

Submitted by OlyDowntowner on Thu, 07/10/2008 - 8:18am.

Caustic humor is one thing in a blog (although it is not too popular on this one), but it's another thing entirely when directed at a nervous citizen commenting, before an audience, on television, at a public meeting. Jeff Kingsbury has treated citizens who step forward with opinions with open contempt. I find this behavior to be extremely inappropriate. He should take a lesson from Mark Foutch, who knew how to disagree respectfully and politely. And I, personally, don't see any humor in this -- when Jeff Kingsbury derides the individual citizens of Olympia I do not find it amusing, merely sickening.

Of course, even behavior as tacky as this does not warrant vandalism, but it is easy to see why people are reluctant to discuss issues with him face to face, and understandable that people are angry with him.

I really wish...

Submitted by Phil Owen on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 9:21pm.

"NAG" wouldn't drag the homeless into this. For all the good they're doing, they might as well throw "feces" at homeless people.

The bottom line is that they're using the misery of others as the opportunity to misbehave.

The Canaanite's Call

I 2nd Phil's Comment!

Submitted by Keith Hufnagel on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 9:36pm.

Ridiculous. Yet, NAG is a group with potential. We need to connect with them to establish similar intentions.

agreed

Submitted by enpen on Thu, 07/10/2008 - 12:38am.

The bottom line is that they're using the misery of others as the opportunity to misbehave.

Paddle their little behinds

Submitted by Laurian on Thu, 07/10/2008 - 5:40am.

and send them to bed with no dessert. Bad Nihilist. Now you go over to that nice Mr. Kingsbury and tell him your sorry.

At the end of the Olympian

Submitted by Just another voice on Thu, 07/10/2008 - 11:32am.

At the end of the Olympian article, it indicates that the owner of Traditions is in "support (of) a compromise on raising building-height limits"

So, does this mean Traditions will be next?

As for actually having a sit down conversation with these people: that is not what they want. They feel as though they have exhuasted all conversations, even though we know that they haven't, and they are just lashing out like they do.

Think Mayday.

When the govs office was charged and the assistants said they would offer a few folks to come inside and have a conversation, and everyone was seriously caught off guard. People didn't know what to do, and then a gentleman quickly took charge of the situation, and screamed "we will not be separated"
Quickly squashing anyone needing to actually DO anything, other than march along and chant and draw on stuff. And break windows.

These folks are not worth my time to have a conversation with. They want to spend there time filling light bulbs with fake poo to fling at people, go right ahead. Nothing I say will change what they do. Nothing we say will do either.

I can imagine they would have felt really disappointed if this wasn't printed in the "corporate media" since they are getting exactly what they want-- attention and tension among people whose minds are already set on the isthmus issue.

------ Here is the InfoShop article.
Why did they lie about going to a port-o-potty behind Salvation Army and gathering feces? LOL!
http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=20080707170605657

But I am Just Another Voice

Traditions, the business...

Submitted by jlw on Thu, 07/10/2008 - 1:53pm.

Traditions, the business, and the building it is housed in are owned by different people. The building itself is owned by the same guy that owns Olympic Outfitters, Ray LaForge (see letter from Ray here). Traditions Fair Trade is owned by Dick Meyers, who is very progressive, and a really wonderful guy. I certainly hope no one vandalizes Traditions.

Scare Tactics

Submitted by Just another voice on Thu, 07/10/2008 - 3:50pm.

I can assume that they singled out the Playhouse because it is owned by a city council member. But really, is that where it will end? In the thread of defacing downtown businesses-- community assets, really-- shouldn't the next step be another business like the Playhouse, such as Traditions. They're dealing with places that have property owners that have different views for downtown.

Both Traditions and the Playhouse, I can assume, are patronized, are run, and employ folks that have an array of views for downtown. It angers me that they would be willing to deface places that bring people together in the community.

So really when it all gets broken down, they really haven't done anything at all but hit one in I am sure a dozen or more properties downtown that would like a different vision for the place.

And I am still confused about the Salvation Army port-o-potty deal. Why lie!?

But I am Just Another Voice

PBIA and open-carry patrol

Submitted by chad360 on Thu, 07/10/2008 - 1:22pm.

The PBIA could hire folks that OC to patrol around town at night (or whenever) and make sure that investments are protected...I (for one) have been pretty upset/shocked by how Jeff K. acts, but it is lame when anyone has to deal with vandalism (it hurts whether we admit it or not, and no one likes to get diss'd).

...the Free Wall is not enough anymore, and we as a community can expect more expressive "art bombs" to go off...

I'm all for citizen patrol, whether it is an OC posse or just folks with cellphones_cams...

...nothing with wrong with walking around town keeping an eye on stuff (all JJ "eyes on the street"-style).

Oh Lord no...

Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 07/10/2008 - 1:31pm.

Walking around keeping an eye on our neighbors, yes, but we don't need to step up the arms race.

Edited: Deleted a reference to the free wall because it has nothing to do with this story.

Re: "free wall"

Submitted by chad360 on Thu, 07/10/2008 - 1:41pm.

I referenced the free wall because it has been suggested that the free wall acts as a layer of insulation for expressive tag/art that takes place in Oly-

-whereas the vandalism that does take place is lame, I do think that the idea of the free wall acting as a pressure-release valve or something is a really interesting POV/concept, but I was in not way trying to say that what happened to Jeff K. is anything like what takes places practically every nite at the free wall.

...and just making a "depressed joke/joke-in-bad-taste" about the OC stuff, missing the space that S6 had here =(

Question regarding Kingsbury's "business"

Submitted by jlw on Thu, 07/10/2008 - 1:57pm.

The Olympian several times refers to Capital Playhouse as "Kingsbury's business." I find that odd, as it is my understanding that Capital Playhouse is a nonprofit -- nobody's business. Furthermore, the F1's filed by Kingsbury with the Public Disclosure Commission (financial disclosure statements required of all candidates) do not list any property owned in downtown Olympia. Yet people tell stories about experiences they've had with Kingsbury as their landlord. I emailed Jeremy Pawloski asking for clarification, but he hasn't responded.

My understanding is that

Submitted by Phil Owen on Fri, 07/11/2008 - 7:04am.

My understanding is that Jeff is the director. He's been running that place for so long, though, that it's nearly impossible to think of the Playhouse without associating Jeff's name with it.

There is one thing I'd like to say in Jeff's defense. The "NAG" group suggested in their post that Jeff's support of Camp Quixote was some kind of political opportunism, and their suggestion couldn't be further from the truth. It was an honest change of opinion, and Jeff quickly began championing the camp once he changed his mind. I watched him face off against some extraordinarily belligerent, angry neighbors in the South Capitol neighborhood when the camp moved to St John's. His defense of the camp was unwavering, even in a very uncomfortable setting. He deserves to be thanked for this, instead his workplace got paint-bombed by a group of juvenile, unthinking little hoodlums with a penchant for self-aggrandizement. It sucks.

The Canaanite's Call

Thanks for explaining this,

Submitted by OlyDowntowner on Fri, 07/11/2008 - 9:24am.

Thanks for explaining this, Phil. Because of his "caustic" manner, Jeff Kingsbury undoubtedly gets targeted for things he isn't guilty of. Although I don't agree with paint bombing, I think this should be a wake-up call for Jeff Kingsbury and other councilmembers, that they need to be more respectful to the citizens they represent. Jeff Kingsbury has created a lot of animosity, and it seems that it is just as much about his manner as it is about his politics.

I'll just add

Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 07/11/2008 - 9:36am.

Our collective outrage is exactly the kind of reaction these kids want. I have a friend who could not stand the word "moist" for some strange reason. So, of course, I used the word around her when ever possible. The day she stopped reacting to me was the day I stopped using the word in every other conversation. I suggest we just clean up their messes and go quietly about the business of finding them.

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