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Submitted by chad360 on Thu, 10/02/2008 - 2:53am.
ya know, I'm finally there- bert convinced me (in part) with one of his pictures that shows the Olympics behind that big building All things considered, I'd rather have a park & green-corridor that high-rise development on the isthmus that is all
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Convinced
Submitted by Bert on Thu, 10/02/2008 - 12:21pm.A park might not be feasible financially - in the short term. But we need to look far into the future - 50, 100, 150 years into the future - when planning land use issues...
Why is a park not financially feasible? Where is this city spending its public monies? This is a question that we need to ask, and that we would do well to be familiar with the answers of.
Furthermore - I am perfectly willing to, and interested in, convincing anyone and everyone else that the Isthmus Rezone will not serve the best interests of the people of Olympia, nor the people of Washington State.
- umberto
It's fine to be convinced.
Submitted by FRESH on Thu, 10/02/2008 - 1:32pm.and this relates how to what I said?
Submitted by chad360 on Thu, 10/02/2008 - 2:04pm.FRESH, your comment is out-of-place here on this thread-
What you are saying is you, please say it on your thread-
-this thread is about my choice and what I'm saying, please respect that-
I'm not talking about "us vs. them" here, you are; pls don't, this thread is not about that-
this thread is about a my thoughts, etc...
I may agree with you about public works & compromise, but this thread is not about that...
...this thread is about my POV, my voice, my decision. Thanks
Yeah, what JMK said,
Submitted by FRESH on Thu, 10/02/2008 - 2:17pm.I think my perspective is a valuable one, and I don't deny that I get cynical and moody (like yesterday with JMK), but in the end this is an open community.
One solution might be to request that comments be shut off on your threads if you don't want comments, because as long as the ability is there, people are going to chime in. That's how we learn about one another in communities, and reach understanding, and progress into the future.
Perhaps You Should
Submitted by JMK on Thu, 10/02/2008 - 2:12pm.have just PM'ed this to Bert instead then. If you start a thread, especially one about opinons, surely you don't expect others not to state their opinion too.
Telling someone to start their own thread because you don't like their opinion seems out of place.
Again,
Submitted by Just another voice on Thu, 10/02/2008 - 3:57pm.Give it about 50 years and the trees will block the Olympics even if the buildings are not built.
From most of Heritage Park you can't see the ocean anyway!
But I am Just Another Voice
Photos
Submitted by Bert on Thu, 10/02/2008 - 7:33pm.Interestingly
Submitted by Laurian on Thu, 10/02/2008 - 4:03pm.the replies to Bert's strenuous advocacy against the rezone moved me from his camp to a neutral position on the issue.
I would like to see a park and think between the city and the state there are the resources to make it happen, but failing that I think housing is the next best option.
And by the way,
Submitted by Just another voice on Thu, 10/02/2008 - 4:31pm.http://www.flickr.com/photos/rwhitlock/2591261611
I have never seen that view from the walk around Heritage Park, have you?
But I am Just Another Voice
Yes
Submitted by Bert on Fri, 10/03/2008 - 12:01pm.Yes I did. And many times I have seen very similar views -ot the same one of course, because the above photo documents a unique moment in time.
As a regular jogger, I went around the lake, customarily, 2 or 3 times a week. Although the views of the Olympic Mountains weren't always as spectacular as this one, I believe this vista is an important one.
point taken?
Submitted by chad360 on Thu, 10/02/2008 - 6:59pm.-well I'd hope that an author could just use the space to say something, and maybe encourage discussion on that something, vs getting re-tellings of what the author meant, or implied, or said, by others: I'm all for interpretive debate, but sometimes the written word just needs to be left alone and the focus be on what the words mean, not just opinions on what the author really meant, or why the words were said by someone, etc...
Double Post
Submitted by JMK on Thu, 10/02/2008 - 7:08pm.Are You Just Having A Bad Year
Submitted by JMK on Thu, 10/02/2008 - 7:07pm.or are you always this mean to everyone who posts here? Especially those who disagree with you. I've hardly read any nice posts from you at all. You're always so quick to jump on people & cut them to the quick instead of realizing not everybody agrees with the Chad360 mentality.
Nobody was re-telling you what you meant. They were offering opinions. That's what you do at forums like this. If you don't want a response to your opinion, send a PM or start your own top secret blog where nobody will be able to disagree with you and express it or offer an opinion that you don't like.
Maybe expressing yourself on blogs and accepting others opinons really isn't your thing and you should take up journaling in a notebook instead.
Seriously, chill out.
Was this a reply to my
Submitted by Just another voice on Thu, 10/02/2008 - 9:01pm.But I am Just Another Voice
No
Submitted by JMK on Thu, 10/02/2008 - 9:45pm.Re: FRESH's comments
Submitted by chad360 on Thu, 10/02/2008 - 7:19pm.JMK, I was responding to FRESH's comment:
FRESH:
But we live in a city of 46,000 people, and that no one person is going to get their way. If you come at things from an either/or, or 'my way or the highway' attitude, you're going to be disappointed every time. I believe, think, feel, and know that usually the best thing for the community is what we'll get when we remain open to compromise.
...I hear what FRESH is saying, and ya know that is OK, but that part I just don't get is why it is hitched to my statement of my opinion of park vs development on the isthmus?
I'm pretty sure I was not saying it had to be "my way", etc...and I think that is left-over from the whole debate...
...but I hear you JMK, loud & clear.
You're right,
Submitted by FRESH on Thu, 10/02/2008 - 7:31pm.word
Submitted by chad360 on Fri, 10/03/2008 - 9:46am....Thanks FRESH. I appreciate your saying so~
I just want to be clear that it was Bert that got me to think about this issue, but it was not his logic or POV that convinced me-
-I just took the walk around the lake and thought it through, and realized that I did want a big park.
Not demanding, just an opinion that yes, a park would be nice~
Thanks Bert for just sharing, and best regards to all~
Compromise
Submitted by Bert on Thu, 10/02/2008 - 7:42pm.Ultimately, we owe it to future generations to protect the planet and all of its species. We, as human beings, are very powerful. We can be good gardeners. Or we can turn the planet into a waste dump. I believe that we have an obligation to protect the bio-diversity on Earth. We cannot allow our culture to run riot over the health of the natural world. To me, the Isthmus Rezone and it's attached Larida Passage proposal are an affront (for a number of reasons, which I have already presented,) against a vision of stewardship for the future.
Do you not see a connection, and a conflict, between the consumption of this culture and the harm being done to the planet?
"whatever it takes"
Submitted by FRESH on Thu, 10/02/2008 - 9:38pm.Whatever it Takes
Submitted by Bert on Fri, 10/03/2008 - 11:56am.Yes, thank you for the clarification, FRESH! "Whatever it Takes" - sans violence!
Of course keeping in mind the very important (though sometimes subtle) differences between violence and the protective use of force.
I don't believe that terrorism could provide a real, or lasting, solution (to anthropogenic environmental degradation.)
I Repeat
Submitted by Bert on Fri, 10/03/2008 - 12:04pm.For FRESH:
Do you not see a connection, and a conflict, between the consumption of this culture and the harm being done to the planet?
Think about what you would want to see in a park.
Submitted by FRESH on Fri, 10/03/2008 - 12:24pm.Okay
Submitted by Bert on Fri, 10/03/2008 - 12:29pm.because,
Submitted by FRESH on Fri, 10/03/2008 - 12:37pm.I don't buy it-
Submitted by chad360 on Fri, 10/03/2008 - 12:52pm....how can what Bert wants in a park in Oly "inform" your answer to his question about our culture in the US and global ecological harm?
It'll help me to understand exactly where bert is coming from...
Submitted by FRESH on Fri, 10/03/2008 - 12:57pm.Okay - What I See (or at least some of it)
Submitted by Bert on Fri, 10/03/2008 - 12:59pm.What do I see in a park? Well I am glad you ask, actually I have quite a few details that I would like to see. Let me preface this by saying that I am willing to compromise on virtually any and all of these issues. The main thing for me is preventing mid to high rise structures on the Isthmus. The main thing is keeping the space - and making the space - as open as possible, so as to serve as a magnet to attract all sorts of people, investors, visitors, residents, etc. to downtown.
So, what do I see... First I would like to see the dam removed and the lake restored to its native estuarine habitat.
Next, I would like to see all, or nearly all, of the buildings and structures on the "Isthmus" (the area to the West of Water Street) removed. Exceptions would include the Percival Landing structure and might include a small boat house. In this stage of the plan, existing structures and businesses would be gently encouraged to gradually and gracefully relocate, with community and institutional support (and incentives) to do so.
Remove all major structures from the Isthmus. Turn 4th Street into a parkway. Strictly enforce 25 mph speed limit. Pedestrian overpass bridges? Possibly experiment with permeable roadway.
I would like to see the taller, more massive trees (those over 20 or 25 feet) removed. I would like to see trails, wildflowers, native wildflower gardens, native perennial plant gardens, including of the edible sort. I would like to see viewing areas and gathering areas.
I would like to see 5th Avenue turned into a bicycle / pedestrian only corridor (with permeable surface.) I would like to see automotive traffic that currently goes around capitol lake diverted up and around the 4th Ave roundabout, until a new bridge can be constructed that would go under the old 5th Ave Rail Road Bridge.
Keep the fountain block and the fountain the way it is. Keep Heritage Park like it is, for now - with the potential to take out some or all of the grasses and install the native flora scheme sometime the future.
Okay, that's the 10 minute, empty stomach version. I am perfectly willing and would be eager to discuss my vision in more detail.
- bert dog
The answer to your question is yes.
Submitted by FRESH on Fri, 10/03/2008 - 1:27pm.I'm really glad to hear you talk about "rewilding" in your vision of a park. The word park can mean many things, and is loaded from my perspective. I hear park and I think of the waste of space that is Heritage Park, at least it's grass and permeable and not all concrete and asphalt. Many parks that I see, like Heritage Park, or the fountain park, and even some of what you describe in your vision (some, not much, but some) is directly related to our consumption culture. Those are all examples, along with thousands of urban parks like them, of taking the earth and consuming it for our comfort or pleasure. This is part of the balancing act though. As a species, we will always increase in numbers, that's just how it works. So we need to pick out, as we have been doing since we crawled out of the water, places to live and play. Cities have become a mixture of those places in that we set aside bits of them to use to gather, relax, socialize, etc. We have also set aside many acres of protected park and forest land as part of this balance. An urban park is always going to be unnatural because it's always going to be, in some way, a reshaping of the land for our benefit. I'm OK with that inside our urban centers with the caveat that we do protect vast swaths of wilderness and strive to take up as little space as possible. The isthmus is in the urban core, and it's going to be used to our benefit no matter what happens, whether that's park or housing or something completely different that we haven't thought of yet.