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Submitted by Norm on Sun, 04/22/2007 - 7:31pm.

Obviously unless the dots are connected and conclusions drawn then insults don't really count.

»

immature at best, slander, cheapen, etc??


Charged language Norm..

Just one question:

When did anyone on here ever call the decision of the City Council racist?

Concretely show me..

Thanks..
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Less straight talk, more

Less straight talk, more innuendo.

The title alone, Olympia City Council Meeting and Racism - Discussion & Potluck

and in

this thread mentions it also.

I was trying not to point fingers or name names. Maybe the posters had different intents but both didn't read well to me. The second link not as much as the first, but it's still an accusation that doesn't sit well with me.

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less straight talk?


the straightest talk (read: concrete language..) I have read so far referring to the Council as racist is the following language: "makes anybody on the council racist.."  (Norm 4/23/07)

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Yep, more innuendo than

Yep, more innuendo than straight talk.

Again, the title, Olympia City Council Meeting and Racism, doesn't look good. It insinuates that the Olympia City Council is racist.

and the comment, I felt the detractors, those who opposed the proposal, relied on an almost purely ad hominem attack that wasn't without a certain degree of overt racism.

So all of the detractors relied on racism? Pretty strong words.

Again, if someone can point to the racism that was used by the detractors, the council, whoever, concerning the Rafah/Olympia sister city, I'd be happy to retract my statement. I think even mentioning it here is cheapening racism.

Thanks for twisting my line around there Bub, I appreciate that. So does it have to be a concrete statement in order to be wrong or deragatory?

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so you have nothing concrete..

so you have nothing concrete..

Just innuendo huh..

Thats defamatory slanderous..

FYI..
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Which is why I didn't want

Which is why I didn't want to point fingers Bub.

Whatever though, it's withdrawn.

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now dont be all mad at me now..

now dont be all mad at me now..
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During the public comment

During the public comment period, many comments and actions were taken demonstrating ignorance and intolerance in our own community.

 

I believe both posts you linked to carried the above sentiment and not that the city council member are racists.

.

 

“Tell me, what is it you plan on doing with your one wild and precious life?” ~ Mary Oliver

»

I think the decision to deny

I think the decision to deny Rafah official sister city status with Olympia was discriminatory. And it was also quite possibly racist. I haven't processed enough to come to that conclusion yet.

But I find myself asking whether such a vocal opposition would have come forth had such a relationship been proposed with an Israeli city/town/village. And if there were those who opposed such a relationship, and called it "political" and "divisive," would the council have decided against it also?

The point is that the Palestinians are being treated as inferiors. Palestinians are suffering under the oppression of the Israeli state. Sure, there are terrorists in Palestine. Just as the Israeli military machine surely terrorizes Palestinians. It goes both ways.

Is that a good enough reason to pass judgment and decline a sister-city relationship? I don't think so. I don't think that the sister-city proposal in any way said that terrorism is acceptable behavior. The object of the proposal was to benefit, mutually, the people of Rafah and the people of Olympia, through increased communication and trade.

The people who made it divisive brought race into the issue. They said that Palestinians are terrorists. Well, if they want to look at it from that POV - Israelis are terrorists too.

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One person's terrorist is

One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter.  Carrilles Posada walks free today despite his likely involvement in blowing up airplanes.  Mumia Abu-Jamal is on death row and can't get a fair trial or a retrial for decades.  Convicted felons John Poindexter and Elliot Abrams are called back to serve in the Bush administration. It's all about politics.

The Oly City Council's decision lacked courage, it ignored the legitimate efforts and intentions of a large number of South Sound residents who desire the official city status and whose work should have been recognized and accommodated.  Normalizing relations, establishing connections between palestinian and american communities is an important element of a potentially more peaceful future.  I think the Council's decision was largely about politics, not race.  I have always been pretty race-blind, and as an apparently white christian male in the US, I have not generally felt the oppression of racism, patriarchy etc. which has enabled me to be less aware of these forces as they work in others and in our communities than I might otherwise be. 

I get some sense of the seething racism that lives in the hearts of some americans when I hear potshots at Sharpton or Jesse Jackson or when I review the FBI tracking of MLK Jr. or when I hear Imus talk about nappy-headed hos.  From the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.  Read that somewhere.  I think the Council's decision was primarily political and expedient.  A chance for community leadership in the world was tossed away because several Council persons were political and weak.  I don't know what part race plays in all this.  Race is fungible.  It is a social construct, it is not a biological reality even though it is clearly a sociological reality.  I think the council's decision was primarily about politics and weakness, not race.  I could be wrong, but that's how it looks to me.
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righto..


RE: "I think the Council's decision was largely about politics, not race..."

I think that to flippantly consider the Councils decision racist ignores some fundamental realities with regards to U.S. policies in that region.

Our relationship with Israel is one of strategic significance, not race..
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This thread needed to

This thread needed to include some context.  Without reading the comments, I would have no idea this was about the City Council and the Sister City thing.  I assume it was a continuation of an existing discussion elsewhere.  So, just a suggestion/request for a little context please?
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The thread has "disregard"

The thread has "disregard" in the title for a reason. I retracted my statement, I had hoped by now the thread would be locked. If someone would like to start their own thread feel free.
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Blog etiquette...

...usually holds that one should retract statements by posting a retraction, not by deleting the statement. Then, people can figure out what is going on.


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
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s'ok Rick, you can call me

s'ok Rick, you can call me rude Wink
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I am in the dark because I

I am in the dark because I don't know what was deleted.  That goes to Rick's post about blog etiquette.  It isn't just Miss Manners type stuff, blog etiquette is about authentic, responsible communication. If you said something and you later decide or find out your statement was wrong, you issue a retraction (and explanation if you are so inclined). It's about ethical communication, about intellectual honesty, which brings me back to the Tom Tomorrow comic.  Deliberate miscommunication should be called out.  Accidental miscommunication should be handled by retraction and explanation or the posting just devolves into hit and run blogging.
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I feel as if my comments,

I feel as if my comments, serious in nature, were belittled because they weren't an exact phrase and up to a certain docents standards. Therefore screw it. I don't need to post about anything with a serious tone any longer if people are just going to be "mini-politicians" and spin it around. If my comments aren't going to be taken seriously, or whipped back toward me as some form of joke, I'm going to remove them.
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Wha?


I wasnt speaking as a docent Norm..

You were the one who wanted "concrete" examples, etc..

So did I..

You didnt have any so you got mad. Not my problem, you brought it up..

And yeah I joked about it afterwords. So what. Am I not allowed to joke with you?

I clearly was not belittling you,have never belittled you, and you know it..
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First, I said you belittled

First, I said you belittled my comments, not me. Second, I never said you were speaking as a docent, I simply said you WERE a docent.

Yes, I wanted something concrete. It seemed like people were pussy-footing around it. I think they still are.

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Norm..


There is no way to tell now, so lets all drop the references to the now non-existent commentary..

What was said was said. Post about it again and I promise to shut up, and let you fly solo on your post.

But do not suggest that I am here to belittle anyone, because you know that just aint true.

I also dont know what the docent stuff (docent is a funny word by the way) has to do with any of this..
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To heck with this..


Im going back to my spaceships..

Good day..
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Thanks for the

Thanks for the clarification.  I didn't take the disregard in that way.  Thought it was a comment on the attitude toward the council.  Thanks again for clarifying. 
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Bringing a seafood fork..

To a butter knife fight..

Bad etiquette..


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I think there is some of


I think there is some of this unfortunate linguistic dynamic working with the racism issue with the Council. 
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Division

Couldn't any issue be accused of divisiveness? What will the council decide if a group of citizen's comes forth to oppose a sister-city relationship with a city in China (based on China's dismal human rights record)?
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I should apologize

I really have a problem with the term "racism" used lightly. I really shouldn't have even started this thread and should have known that someone would end up ticking me off. Although I don't take "pokes" at Al Sharpton, I do get very tired of him, as Mike mentioned. I'll leave it at that.
»

This is interesting - and I

This is interesting - and I agree with Jason.  Originally posted on AOL, but that page has an ActiveX control install prompt and I thought I'd spare you the potential headache.

Time for Jackson, Sharpton to Step Down

Don't go past the first comment, but do read it!

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