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Submitted by Norm on Sat, 12/09/2006 - 12:35pm.
phuney tea shert
»

i've seen the shirt

It is not so funny and it can be misconstrued the wrong way.  I think this one might back fire on the conservatives.  The intended audience might just be making fools of themselves.

"I would make it impossible for the covetous and avaricious to utterly impoverish the poor. The rich can take care of themselves."
^@^
»

I don't get it...It's

I don't get it...It's supposed to be a play on the pro-war camp's illiteracy? What am I missing?

»

It's a play on Kerry's

It's a play on Kerry's botched joke that was all over the news a few months ago. I'm sure Olycop and TFI will find it amusing.
»

Didnt Kerry actually see combat?

Bush?

Cheney?

Rumsfeld?

Wolfowitz?

TFI?

Norm?

Olycop?

should I go on..
»

Hmmm, what difference does

Hmmm, what difference does that make? and what relevance does it have on the conversation? Kerry botched a joke, he sounded like an ass insulting soldiers. As shown by the banner below there are a few soldiers who were insulted. Kerry is a chump, if he runs I will not be voting for him and will fight it all the way, I'd even vote for Jeb over him.

T-shirt = funny. I don't care what any of the rest of you think.

A couple of those folks you mentioned above never saw combat, but they were still in the military, what have you done for your country lately Bub? Besides insulting Lacey that is.

»

Bush botched a war..

RE: "what have you done for your country lately Bub?"

I pay my taxes without complaint..

RE: Kerry..

The point being,

Why would you give someone like Bush the benefit of the doubt before you give Kerry the same benefit?

Because of a botched joke?

heh..
»

I dislike Kerry's politics,

I dislike Kerry's politics, plain and simple. One of my big issues (should not be a huge shocker for readers here) happens to be one that he lied about and tried to present himself as something he was not.

 The botched joke was just hilarious, and it insulted the EXACT people that he was trying so hard to convince that he was this great guy. Too many people saw through him, I was one of them, that is why I don't give him the benefit of the doubt. If you want to convince me in your campaign come on out and be yourself. He came out trying to sweet-talk people about issues that he was going to protect while displaying a huge history of voting against them. Then he tries for some great pictures of him during recreation and was laughed at by the same group, he was being a poser.

 Most people pay their taxes without complaint Bub, if you're looking for a pat on the back you'll have to hit the next person in line.

»

I dont care who you vote for..

But I do agree..

That the best way to support your country is to pay your taxes..

Like most people do without complaint..

Wink
»

For those who don't like the

For those who don't like the military there is always the peace corps, or you can keep it local and help out Phil, Meta and Rob. Paying your taxes is nice, but unless you are a mobster, or wesley snipes, we don't hear much about people not paying their taxes.
»

paying taxes

Maybe you're just not looking hard enough...

"Anybody who doesn't know that politics is crime has got a few screws loose."

»

Wow, I stand corrected, and

Wow, I stand corrected, and a little better informed. I imagine the IRS is loving them.
»

an interesting case

I check in every couple of days to see if a decision has been handed down. Joe Banister makes for an interesting read as well.

"Anybody who doesn't know that politics is crime has got a few screws loose."

»

i understand it

I know what they are saying, the joke just doesn't work.  It really looks like the shirt is making fun of our soldiers.  If they wanted to make it funny it would have appeared to be from an extremely literate person writing to John Kerry.  That's your lesson in Humor 101.  There will be a test later.

"I would make it impossible for the covetous and avaricious to utterly impoverish the poor. The rich can take care of themselves."
^@^
»

CNN: Troops respond to 'Jon

CNN: Troops respond to 'Jon Carry' with plea for 'halp'

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- U.S. troops showed their displeasure -- and sense of humor -- regarding Sen. John Kerry's comments this week to a group of California college students, whom he told to work hard in school or they'd "get stuck in Iraq."

Eight soldiers, who are stationed near the southeastern Iraqi city of Nasiriya, are shown holding the sign in a photo that has been widely distributed on the Internet.

»

it still is not working

it is a great picture, to be sure, but it really doesn't get its intended point across.  Kind of reminds me of the news footage of the Iraqui man beating on the statue of Sadam after the military toppled it.  I wasn't sure what message that was supposed to be sending but they showed it constantly for a while.  Actually I'm fairly certain that the picture of the soldiers is againt the military code.  Such messages are prohibited by the military.  Service people making political statements in uniform is strictly prohibited by the UCMJ.

"I would make it impossible for the covetous and avaricious to utterly impoverish the poor. The rich can take care of themselves."
^@^
»

If tried, it may be illegal.

If tried, it may be illegal. That's the upside to being on the winning side of the banter, you can poke fun at the other guy (kerry) all day because he not only lost, he continues to screw up poorly written jokes, and the military isn't going to charge these soldiers because they are making fun of....a loser!
»

source of the joke

I wouldn't be horribly surprised if the impetus for this joke came down through the ranks. Maybe it was a "funny thought" at the Pentagon that quickly made its way to a politically sympathetic commander in Iraq? That being said, I think John Kerry may have been the only person alive who could lose to Bush in that last election (voting fraud included). And insofar as responding to a duffed joke, I think the banner was pretty f'n funny.

"Anybody who doesn't know that politics is crime has got a few screws loose."

»

I wouldn't be horribly

I wouldn't be horribly surprised if the impetus for this joke came down through the ranks.

The Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy at work again?

»

More along the lines of the

More along the lines of the vast election week conspiracy at work again.

"Anybody who doesn't know that politics is crime has got a few screws loose."

»

Hey Norm,

This is one of those times when I'm going to invite you to look a little deeper. Kerry lost to a bunch of thugs who haven't seen a minute in combat, while he was getting shrapnel pulled out of his butt. Bush and Chaney won because of lies, lies that can no longer be suppressed. Now who's the chump again? Kerry, or all the people who voted for Bush?


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
»

Kerry, he played his

Kerry, he played his campaign wrong, and he tried to represent himself in a way to score better with certain people instead of just being honest. Kerry's whole campaign was "I'm not Bush." He still lost. There were enough people out there who would still take bush over kerry that kerry lost. Kerry = chump.
»

It never ceases to astound...

...that you think it more important to nail Kerry for not knowing how to run a campaign than to nail Bush for not knowing how to run a war, economy, foreign policy, domestic policy, etc... Way to keep those priorities straight, man.


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
»

Rick, you are assuming here.

Rick, you are assuming here. I have never said that I hold any love for Bush. He's a moron! How many times do I have to say that? I don't like him, many people don't like him. With that in mind, how big of a CHUMP do you have to be to lose to a guy with that bad of an approval rating? Someone out there doesn't like bush, but thought bush was somehow the lesser of two evils. Don't blame me, Kerry lost to the guy. I didn't vote for either of them. I wouldn't vote for him if he ran in 08 either, I hope we get a better alternative in both camps by then.
»

But every time you buy the hype...

...and pile on with the same old tired joke about how much of a chump Kerry is, you just make it easier for Bush to skate. I'd be damn happy if Kerry was president right now, and I think that we'd have fewer dead soldiers and Iraqis. That's the point. It's not a freakin' personality contest.


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
»

You almost make it sound

You almost make it sound like you want me to be resentful of the fact that Kerry isn't president. It's in the past Rick let it go. You sound like you are turning this into some kind of personal anguish story...it's life. I'm not sure I agree with your less dead soldiers thing but yes, it's too bad there aren't less dead soldiers. I'm not going to live my life wrapped around that because I'd be a walking gloom.

 How exactly am I making it easier for Bush to skate? Nobody is asking me what should be done with Bush now, my opinion doesn't matter, so why do you care?

 Yes, it is a freakin personality contest, every election is. Why do you think arnold is govunuh of kaleeforneeuh? Why do you think everyone liked clinton? All about personality Rick. Bush lacks a lot of that, so did Kerry.

»

Nope.

Clinton got elected because he knew a thing or two about how to run a government (and he proved it for eight years). Arnold was elected by 20% of the voters in California in a recall election. He was re-elected because he also showed ability in actually running that state.

You help Bush (and others who want to make elections about personality) by going along with the high-school humor tactics: Laugh at the nerdy guy. He's too smart to be anything but a wimp. His wife is French. In doing so, you aid and abet the people who think politics is a game. Tell that to the families of the soldiers that have died since '04.

Finally, you started this thread. Who can't let go?


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
»

Ok Rick

You are making this personal. I posted the thread because the Tshirt is funny. I have no reason to let go, this thread is completely valid. Folks are talking about John Kerry running again, how am I supposed to let go of something when it hasn't fully come to pass? Tell the families WHAT? Gee, I should have voted for Kerry? The guy WON OUR STATE RICK!!!! My vote didn't mean crap one way or the other! As for laughing at politics if you can honestly tell me that you have never laughed at a political joke, or laughed at dubya I'd be very surprised. They are in the public eye, they are laughed at. Anyone watch saturday night live? I'm sorry you think the world is so serious Rick but you know what, don't drag me down there with you ok?

 I'm not sure what's going on with you lately Rick but you are being an ass. This post has nothing to do with "yay for bush, look at how kerry lost." It's about kerry making a bad joke, that hurt him with a portion of the population that he tried to win in the last election.

»

Ignorance is bliss...

...I guess.


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
»

and negativity kills, so

and negativity kills, so smile you jerk.
»

Interesting...

...that you should bring up negativity -- the person who is engaging in political smear by perpetuating this myth. You, me and everyone in Iraq knows that's not what he meant, but it's just so fun to play this silly game. The reason that Gore isn't president: someone made up this little lie that he claimed he invented the internet. As CS points out below, the world is much worse off for it. Essentially the same process continued in '04 with Kerry, and you don't seem to see it. In fact, you have shit on your hands.

What's next, Norm? Do we get to hear about how Nancy Pelosi has an alcohol problem and Hillary Clinton molests children? Will you laugh and repeat those lies too?


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
»

Rick, I'm done arguing about

Rick, I'm done arguing about him. I'm done arguing with you. If you'd like to keep arguing feel free, but this will be my last response to you on this thread. I tried to end on a joke and you wouldn't let that happen.

 I didn't vote for Kerry because I didn't like his politics. It had nothing to do with the swiftboats, or any other political mudslinging. He preached one thing, and practiced another, and had the voting record to back it up. When he realized this he staged some photo op's to make him look cool in my eyes, I called him on his bullshit. NOT like it made a whole hell of a lot of difference, again, WA state was in the bag for him, we run on electoral votes Rick, you know this. If Clinton is the front-runner vs. a democrat the next go round I'm sure WA will vote for her too. I love my state, but I'm not going to let it's politics drag me down.

 Obviously you've forgotten the debacle. He refused to apologize for awhile there. Also, he was the one that came in firing with the joke. If you want to gripe about the mud-slinging maybe you should go after him. Maybe it's karma, he was going in there trying to take a jab and it back-fired, I feel no love lost, and when I first read his comment I was a bit pissed. With all the lying that politicians do who's to say that's not what he meant? You aren't going to make me feel bad for this one Rick. Type up "ignorance is bliss" or whatever, I don't give a flying fart. I will say though, that up until a little while ago I held a lot of respect for you, and that is slowly dwindling.

The gore internet thing is laughable at best, I have never read anything, nor heard of anyone who decided not to vote for him because of that. I didn't vote for him because of his policies on gun control, he was worse than kerry.

EDIT: I should explain the karma part. Kerry has said the joke was "suppose" to be you get stuck in Iraq with a low IQ president. He was taking a shot at Bush, it backfired.

»

Just do me a favor, Norm...

...since I see there's no hope of you gaining any insight about the past, in the future, think twice before you swallow the distortions, innuendo, ridicule and straight-up lies. Politics is about more than personality. It's about competence. The more you participate it the echo chamber of sophomoric character assassination, the harder it is for real, qualified human beings to get elected. The consequences of this are real: lots of dead bodies all over Iraq. I don't care if you respect me; I'd rather you had some respect for reality.


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
»

Hey, Rick, Can you reason with the Right?

I cruise by once in a while and scan the conversation, but haven't felt any need to comment until now.

A couple of months ago when I was engaged in a similar dialogue with the far right "middle of the roaders" here you advised that this was a useful venue to engage with those folks.  That I might not have the opportunity elsewhere and elsewhen, so I should be sweet with them and hope to help them come to their senses.  I am wondering if you remember that suggestion?

And I don't say that to rub your nose in it that you are now engaged in a somewhat heated exchange with Normie.  Heck, everything you have said I might have said. But I do wonder if you continue to think that giving bandwidth to the right wingers makes sense?  Do we need to hear more about the absolute right to bear arms from the same people who are anxious to see the right to assemble and sit in a public space literally kicked to the curb?

Push this to the front page.  I think it's a discussion whose time has come and come and come. Why give Rove's people a venue?  Norm's approach and call is completely Rovian.  Forget about the facts and issues and consequences, let's make this all about personality and smear. 

It's effective at influencing the voting public but the long term consequence is public policy that robs the treasury and kills innocents for profit. Do you really want to support that on Olyblog?
»

You're right...

...I don't. But sometimes I just can't just sit on my hands!


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
»

I have to admit Mike, I

I have to admit Mike, I haven't missed you. That broad brush that you paint everyone with seems to have gained a fresh coat of paint.
»

I would agree with that

kind of like find out the chemo didn't work.

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.

»

"It's in the past Rick let

"It's in the past Rick let it go."

"how am I supposed to let go of something when it hasn't fully come to pass?"

Dude, WTF?
»

Since you are jumping into a

Since you are jumping into a part of the thread that lost a lot of steam. The first quote is in referrence to Kerry not getting elected. The second quote is referring to Kerry possibly running in '08. Both make sense but you have to put them into the context of the post. Taking them both and putting them in a single post makes no sense, you've taken me out of context.

That's WTF dude.

»

[Arnold Schwarzenegger] was

[Arnold Schwarzenegger] was re-elected because he also showed ability in actually running that state.

What!? Only a year before his reelection he lost every initiative at the ballot box that he supported.

MSNBC:

Within days of his drubbing, Schwarzenegger had publicly apologized to Californians for his “mistake,
»

Seriously, Rick

What reason did John Kerry give to vote for him?

That he wasn't George Bush? Wow, don't want to try too hard for those votes.

At least Howard Dean had a position and made it known.

»

Democratic botch job

I'm not convinced in the least the Kerry would be doing much better or worse than Bush right now.

"Anybody who doesn't know that politics is crime has got a few screws loose."

»

Do you really think so?

Do you think that Kerry would be running an Imperial Presidency a la Bush right now? Don't you think there would long ago have been a switch on Iraq to internationalize? Don't you think there would have been repair to our relationships with allies? These are real differences that are costing many, many lives right now.


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
»

I wish I did...

...but I don't. I think they represent two sides of the same coin, corporate America. I really think that had Kerry won election (which I preferred at the time) he would have taken his oath, signed in a new cabinet, set to work on putting his stamp on the Iraq war, changed a few things around, and then, asked us to give him a few years to see if it all worked. Meanwhile, the Iraqis still wouldn't want us in their country, their neighbors still wouldn't want us in their backyards, and the insurgency would have continued to grow and cost lives for every side involved. Right now I'm beginning to believe that the best thing that could've happened for Iraq was to get 4 more years of bozo to finally wake up America to the crimes committed in our names on a daily basis. Maybe Bush's last 4 years in office are culturally equivalent to a societal dose of ipecac?

"Anybody who doesn't know that politics is crime has got a few screws loose."

»

BELCH

NC
»

I hope John Kerry's advance

I hope John Kerry's advance planning team for the 2008 presidential run analyzes this page thoroughly. Kerry is DOA for 2008 I am afraid. Clinton, Obama, Edwards...
»

I kinda like Obama, the jury

I kinda like Obama, the jury is out on Edwards, but he could come in and win me over I think. Not a chance I'd vote for Clinton, and it has nothing to do with her being female either :P I'd like to see a woman in office next election, just not her.
»

I saw Obama on "The Tonight

I saw Obama on "The Tonight Show" the other night and liked him, too.

I'm at least interested in his politics and liked how he's pretty open. For instance, evidently in his book he acknowledges he smoked marijuana in high school. When Leno asked if he "inhaled," Obama goes, "Wasn't that the point?"

Pretty funny stuff. It was good to see a politician who wasn't stuffy.

»

interesting

The both of you like Obama. I like him as well, because of his politics. He's almost a socialist (think health care, workers rights), he believes religion should be kept completely out of the public square, he believes that we should listen to our scientists the same way we listen to our clergy, I'm sure there's more reasons that I can't think of. I'm curious as to why the two of you like him?

"Everybody who imitates Christ is a fake Jesus." –Alan Watts

»

I honestly don't know a lick

I honestly don't know a lick about his politics and might find that I absolutely hate him.

With that said, I did find him refreshing with his honesty and humor. I wasn't "turned off," so to speak and raised my interest in finding more out about him.

»

the t-shirt is still dumb

but I see that it has stirred some interesting conversation.  Personally, I believe that Gore would have made a better president than Kerry.  Had Gore been president (and some think he actually won) Kerry would be a moot point, along with Bush.  Sept 11 would most likely have occured under Gore.  I believe we would have captured bin Laden by now and that we would not be in Iraq right now.  Most likely we'd be all done in Afganistan by now as well. 

Regardless of who is president, terrorism will continue to be something just on the horizon, striking us from time to time.  There is no shortage of people that want to make these sorts of points against the US. I believe that Bush has given the terrorists more reasons, not fewer reasons to attack us on our soil.  I don't believe that Gore would have given the terrorists as many reasons and he may have been able to give them fewer reasons. 

If you believe that Bush has made us safer in the world then you probably do think the t-shirt is funny and that what one needs to be president is some sort of used car salesman in a bar kind of personality.  I  believe that intelligence (not the kind bush used in determining the wmd) and consideration, along with a bit of wisdom can go a long way to making our country and world a better place.  I don't care if it is a democrat or a republican brings this to us, I just want to see it in my lifetime.

"I would make it impossible for the covetous and avaricious to utterly impoverish the poor. The rich can take care of themselves."
^@^
»

I believe we would have

I believe we would have captured bin Laden by now and that we would not be in Iraq right now. Most likely we'd be all done in Afganistan by now as well.

The only reason I disagree with this is because I don't see Gore using the necessary military strength (e.g. militarizing Afghanistan's borders, aggressive military tactics against Afghan militias, and so on).

Putting aside the reason why we went into various countries (namely, Somolia and Kosovo), the Clinton administration showed no willingness to use the military to the fullest extent possible. Leaving after 12 U.S. soldiers were killed in Somolia, rather than sending more (with more liberal shooting orders), was perhaps the most damning piece of evidence that the United States cannot stomach casualties.

My cousin is on leave from Iraq right now (he's stateside for two weeks). He's not too thrilled about our current situation in Iraq and has stated the following in the week since he's been back:

1. Dividng Iraq into three separate countries is the only thing that's going to work.

2. We're "fighting with our hands behind our back" (his words, not mine). He stated that he's required to file a report every time his weapon is discharged "and there's an investigation if you shoot people." This has really made me interested in researching military policies during American conflicts previous to the Second World War and whether we demanded this level of accountability of knowing who and what soldiers are shooting at.

3. When and if we leave before some sort of stability is established, there will be a lot of casualties among those who cooperated with the U.S. He said that's the biggest fear of the translator attached to their unit.

If you believe that Bush has made us safer in the world then you probably do think the t-shirt is funny

I don't believe we're any safer in the world, but I still see the humor in the shirt.

You know why? Because a lot of people I've spoken to about entering the military have all said the same thing: why would you go to college and then go into the Army? I can't tell you how many times this has been stated over the course of the last year and, I'm sure, will only become more frequent the closer I get to actually signing paperwork.

That's why I think the shirt is funny. Because there are people out there (e.g. Clinton, Bush and the entire Vietnam generation) who see college as a way out of serving in the military when the proverbial money is down. Kerry claims the statement was a "botched joke," but I think he knows what he meant.

»

Remember, Bush Stole Elections

Not in defense of Kerry here, but you have to remember the Bush supreme court debacle in 2000 and Ohio in 2004. Bush stole both elections to get in office. So, basically, our country is being run by a murderer / thief.

BELCH

»

Norm

I like the t-shirt, and it's clear that Kerry's stupidity pisses off his electorate, as they have to defend him. We saw it here. Thanks for the link to the shirt.

I don't like most of the presidents in the last 50 years. I liked Ronny. I know many here didn't like him, but I thought he was a great leader. Clinton wasn't a horrible president, and was 10 times the leader that Kerry could ever hope to be. But Slick-Willy was no Ronny.

Obama, I like his style, he is very likeable, but he is too new/young in the biz to run now, and we really don't know where he stands on most of the issues. Not to mention he's anti-gun, and pro-child murder, so he will never get my vote, just like most of the demos. All the rest of the demos threatening to run for prez all suck.

I wish a really charismatic Libertarian would come on scene and blow the doors off the 2 party system. If the libertarians would screw their head on right with respect to abortion, I would vote for them. But until then, I will vote for the guy/gal that is mind melded with me on the two above platforms.

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.

»

a really charismatic

a really charismatic Libertarian would come on scene and blow the doors off the 2 party system.

I'm really convinced of this, too. I don't think a socialist could do this, because not everyone would support the idea of an English or German welfare system (myself being among them).

But imagine if someone who thought the only role of the military was for defense of defined U.S. borders?

Also, I think it's interesting that the U.S. Constitution does not provide for a standing army (again, here's my case that a militia is a group of citizen-soldiers and is supposed to be the only standing defense of the nation and the individual state. In Section 8, Clause 15 outlining the powers of Congress:

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

But does prescribe that Congress provide and maintain a navy:

To provide and maintain a Navy;

Think about all of the controversy surrounding the defense of our southern border, the use of the military (Iraq and international-led action) and protection of seaports.

Now picture a politician standing up there, holding the Constitution, and pointing to the enumerated powers given to Congress versus the reality we live in.

Would his voting tally go through the roof? He would at least force the Republican and Democratic candidates to answer some pretty tough questions about the constitutional role of government.

»

Ban semi-automatics, and

Ban semi-automatics, and more possession restrictions Principles that Obama supports on gun issues:


Ban the sale or transfer of all forms of semi-automatic weapons.
Increase state restrictions on the purchase and possession of firearms.
Require manufacturers to provide child-safety locks with firearms.

Source: 1998 IL State Legislative National Political Awareness Test Jul 2, 1998

Voted NO on prohibiting lawsuits against gun manufacturers.

A bill to prohibit civil liability actions from being brought or continued against manufacturers, distributors, dealers, or importers of firearms or ammunition for damages, injunctive or other relief resulting from the misuse of their products by others. Voting YES would:


Exempt lawsuits brought against individuals who knowingly transfer a firearm that will be used to commit a violent or drug-trafficking crime
Exempt lawsuits against actions that result in death, physical injury or property damage due solely to a product defect
Call for the dismissal of all qualified civil liability actions pending on the date of enactment by the court in which the action was brought
Prohibit the manufacture, import, sale or delivery of armor piercing ammunition, and sets a minimum prison term of 15 years for violations
Require all licensed importers, manufacturers and dealers who engage in the transfer of handguns to provide secure gun storage or safety devices

Reference: Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act; Bill S 397 ; vote number 2005-219 on Jul 29, 2005

"Everybody who imitates Christ is a fake Jesus." –Alan Watts

»

Bummer, there goes my

Bummer, there goes my vote...and I had hope for him too Frown That last bill you mentioned ended up passing didn't it?
»

are you saying this because

are you saying this because it has to do with guns or because you really think people should be able to transport firearms with the intention or knowledge of criminal activity taking place?

I'm fairly on the fence about guns. I don't see much wrong with Obama's stance on them. The other thing to consider is that most of the time gun control is a wedge issue and really doesn't play into how a person will govern. I can't see ANY democrat seriously going after guns in a meaningful way, they would lose, probably even amongst a number of their own.

I know the point is that the constitution guarantees us guns, but the constitution is painfully vague. It can and has been interpreted, just on this issue, in inumerable ways. I see guns as a needs/wants issue. If you hunt, then you need a gun or bow for that. If you target shoot you need a gun or a bow for that. When you start getting into higher calibers and automatics, to me it starts becoming less need and more want. I think a little utilitarianism would be refreshing on this issue. I don't see some of the guns that are protected right now being for the benefit of the majority of the people. I also understand that it's fun to shoot AK-47's, as I have done, but I don't think people need to have ready access to them. I believe that people should be checked for certain kinds of weapons. Hell, I'd support grenades and bazookas if I thought only people like you would get to own them.

"Everybody who imitates Christ is a fake Jesus." –Alan Watts

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Well this is a rights issue

So lets change the number on the right to #1. You can speak your mind about some things, but not about your government, business, or lets say the poor. All other parts of the first amendment are fine.

I don't believe you need to have ready access to some books.

I think you should have to submit your political statement to the FBI, and have them decide if its ok for you to make your statement, and then you need to have 5 days to cool off before you can make your statement. This would apply to the press as well of course!

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.

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As you can see, I'm not

As you can see, I'm not quite as gung-ho as Oly here. Although maybe I should be Wink

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No, I'm totally against

No, I'm totally against illegal firearm trafficing. I'd even go so far as to say, if the government up and said "no more ak47's" I would dislike the principle of it, but wouldn't cry long over it. I own one firearm that kind of falls into that same category, and the only reason I still own it is because I built it.

 The part that got me was "Ban the sale or transfer of all forms of semi-automatic weapons." Putting the words "weapons" in there means handguns apply also. For self-defense purposes (don't give me stats on actual self defense needs in the country) these are the premium choice. I don't need lots of frills or a firearm that shoots 900 rpm's. I would like to be able to protect myself though if it ever comes up, and when/if I do I want to be fairly well equipped for the job. police/military use semi-auto handguns, I want to be able to use that also considering the wait times for police in this city and how small my place is. No cop is going to show up before I'm toast, I'll rely on myself thanks.

So yes, with thoughts like that, he's lost my vote before he's out of the gates. Which is a bummer because I had hopes for him.

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Doesn't matter if Americans are dying in Iraq...

...as long as I can have my guns? Can anyone say myopia?


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
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Separate issues,

how much of the rest of the Bill of Rights are you willing to give up for the dead and dying in Iraq, Rick? Or is only the second amendment up for trade?

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.

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It's a guarantee

There is no guarantee we will be in Iraq come '08. There is no guarantee that if we are that a democrat will pull us out of there. There is no guarantee that if a repub is put in office that he WON'T pull us out of Iraq. There is a guarantee that Obama will try to put through strict gun laws, and with the makeup of congress and the senate right now they would probably pass. So I'm going on absolutes, and not maybe's.

 How dare you insinuate how I should vote or insult my politics. You don't know me well enough to be doing this Rick, I don't let my own family influence my vote unless I come asking. If you want to convince me to vote another way you need to be more persuasive and less abrassive. You, sir, are playing the player, not the ball.

 Not only that, but I find it interesting you reply under my post, but not Olycops. So what's the deal Rick? Do you want to just whip em out and see who can pee the farthest? It really feels like that is what this is turning into and I find it funny, after this comment of yours, that you refer to MY behavior as sophomoric.

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OlyCop and I...

...have had a few dances already. I know where he stands on things. I don't, however, get you, Norm. You seem to be completely oblivious to the consequences of your statements. (And, by the way, if you don't want people to comment on them, don't post them on the blog.)

"Don't tell me any stats on the need for self-defense." There's a nugget. If you're impervious to research, then all you're really doing is telling us your bias. I'm not really interested in that, Norm. How's about bringing some facts to the table?

The world is a complex place, and absolutes don't really help. They limit one's options. If you want to really talk about these issues, then I suggest you leave the snark, myopia and absolutism behind, or you'll get me calling you on it.


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
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Stats can be pointed to

Stats can be pointed to wherever the statician wants to point them. A simple word change and things look incredibly different. Crenshaw mentioned earlier that we live our lives by stats. Yet our largest stat is that most people will die of heart disease. If we lived by this, there would be no McDonalds, people would eat far less sugar and fewer carbs, and we'd all exercise everyday for 30 minutes....america is still fat. Next up? Cancer. Most prominent cancer that is killing? Lung. Yet we still smoke! Speaking of which, that contributes to the heart disease also. So, when McDonalds goes bankrupt, and it becomes illegal to be over 15% body fat, I'll give up my guns, until then don't break into my house Rick or you may not walk back out.

You're right Rick, if I don't want my views commented on, I shouldn't post them. Thanks for reminding me.

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I really wish we could debate this stuff face to face,

as for stats, etc., I find if one comes here without stats, you are chastised.  And if you do bring some stats, they are questioned if not from a source the progressives like.

But here are some stats I promised in another thread and then spaced it off. 

 

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.

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Wrong

"There is a guarantee that Obama will try to put through strict gun laws..."

This is a false statement, there is no guarantee of that whatsoever. I don't think Obama ever introduced, not voted on, but introduced, gun legislation. If not, then there is no evidence to prove your statement. If Congress were to pass gun legislation and he were president, he may not veto it, and that may be enough for you, but I don't think at this point in time, that Obama's going to come after your guns.

"Everybody who imitates Christ is a fake Jesus." –Alan Watts

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There is a thought to my

There is a thought to my process. Again I don't feel like sharing it here, ask me in person sometime.
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So what happens if you agree

So what happens if you agree with him on every other issue, and he never once mentions guns while campaigning? I think it's important to realize that guns are a partisan issue, and as a very young politician, he probably voted along party lines. I don't think he really cares much about guns right now, there are bigger fish to fry.

"Everybody who imitates Christ is a fake Jesus." –Alan Watts

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I'm sorry Rob, I don't feel

I'm sorry Rob, I don't feel like having my comments analyzed by Dr. Rick today. Ask me tomorrow at the broho maybe, or come to one of the coffee meetups. Maybe then I can express my thoughts and opinions without having a moral enema shoved up my bum.
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word

word

"Everybody who imitates Christ is a fake Jesus." –Alan Watts

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And you wouldn't believe...

...what I found in there!


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
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Some more for ya

Same number of deaths by drunk drivers for 2004 as there were firearm murders.  And those deaths are only 39% of all the auto deaths for 2004.  Since driving is a priviledge, and gun ownership is a right, if life preservation is your real goal, outlaw motor vehicles.

Stats 

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.

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If you think people care about their guns...

...just try taking their cars away!


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
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Yup me too

I'm done with Obama too.

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.

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The 2000 election wasn't

The 2000 election wasn't "stolen." I agree with you, it should have rested at the state level, but you really shouldn't start complaining about federalism simply because it didn't swing your way.

Come to the "loose confederation of states"-POV more often and we can both fight the good fight on a consistant basis.

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bubbaz

Did I see combat?  Nope, but would have if called upon to do it.  I did do time in one of these.

And was prepared to shoot these

And was very willing and ready to blow these guys off the face of the earth.

Warming up Siberia like this

And after "killing a commie for mommie", we would come home to this

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.

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Ok, that last picture and

Ok, that last picture and sentence are hilarious.

I love the 19th century divinity, "God has blessed us"-symbolism, also.

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OC


LOL

Shock and Awesome!..
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OC: I can see the big picture here..

When you came back home, Charleton Heston will be waiting..
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Take your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!

George Taylor: A planet where apes evolved from men? There's got to be an answer.
Dr. Zaius: Don't look for it, Taylor. You may not like what you find.

Dr. Zaius would make a fine president of our United States.

"I would make it impossible for the covetous and avaricious to utterly impoverish the poor. The rich can take care of themselves."
^@^
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Bubbaz

LOL, thats about it. It seems you are a bit of a sci-fi buff, yes?

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.

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will the last war supporter please turn off the lights

The war in Iraq is having its last gasps.  There is virtually no support for the war by the American public.  Some continue to support this war out of some blind loyalty to the party in the white house.  One by one they will jump ship as well.  Some saw the writing on the wall regarding the war very early in the process, some it took some time with.  Some of the people against the war today actually disagreed with those that were against it from the get go.  This war is a disaster.  When the only way it can be defended is by the mock offense to some botched joke tells you a lot.  Even if some soldiers were insulted, it does not change the nature of the war, it only changes the points from where people argue.  In the end the joke just served to deflect the argument away from the real point. I don't think that insulted soldiers is good enough reason to keep this war going in Iraq.

"I would make it impossible for the covetous and avaricious to utterly impoverish the poor. The rich can take care of themselves."
^@^
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Precisely.

Although I don't think that US policy is going to be able to turn on a dime. It's going to take a long time to extricate ourselves from this situation. The sooner we start, the better.


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
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kerry

I think kerry was just high or something
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I think your high there chum..

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Say

hello to my little friend.

"The World is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page." Saint Augustine (354-430 AD).

»

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