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Submitted by Rick on Sun, 10/08/2006 - 4:20pm.
[via omjp] On October 5th, 2005, a small contingent of Students for a Democratic Society and anti-capitalists converged at the World Can’t Wait rally in Seattle, Washington at Cal Anderson Park. The group planned to attend the rally then leave to hold workshops and skill shares with their peers. While sitting in the park sharing a melon before the rally, a cop on a bike approached the group and seized their red and black anarcho-syndicalist flag. Matthew Hyra of the Seattle Police Department began to walk away from the crowd telling the person who had been holding the flag that if he wanted it back he would have to follow him, alone. At that time everyone who was in the area stood up and followed Hyra, demanding to know why he had taken the flag, abridging their right to free speech. As this happened, Hyra targeted an individual who was copwatching and arrested him and two of his comrades. The three were booked and processed in the King County Jail. Two of the arrested were charged with obstruction of (in)justice and resisting arrest. The third arrested was initially charged with obstruction, which later evolved into an investigation of assault of an officer. The first two were released on bail at 1:00am Friday morning and the third was released on bail at 10:00pm Friday after an earlier appearance before a judge. Comrades of the arrestees, the “Flag Three
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The problem that I have with
Submitted by Norm on Sun, 10/08/2006 - 6:24pm.Link request
Submitted by Sarah on Sun, 10/08/2006 - 7:29pm.I've absolutely no problem with folks wanting more information, other perspectives. Don't have a problem either with people making their own decisions about where they put their money.
hmmm, ok, working on it
Submitted by Norm on Sun, 10/08/2006 - 7:36pm.Found One
Submitted by Norm on Sun, 10/08/2006 - 8:07pm.http://www.olyblog.net/blog/rick/more-action-at-the-port-today
Now, I know Rob well enough to know he was not lying, and probably not fabricating anything, that doesn't mean that the folks he talked with weren't though. I was toward the outskirts with my camera, and my then gf, and saw multiple things chucked over the fence, 2 were bottles, and a handful of things that were smaller. Rocks? Maybe, but I don't want to assume anything. At this point I told my gf that it was time to back up because the situation was gonna change. I was not the only person to back up at that point ( my girlfriend said she didn't hear me, but 2 others near me heard and followed, go figure ) and the deputies filed out and formed their little line. Now, maybe the vantage point near the fence made it hard to see bottles going over, maybe some folks were too busy shaking the fence to notice, I don't know. With all of the emotional people down there though, I think I'd rather get perspective from folks from both sides, and hopefully people that are removed from the situation.
I'm still looking for the post from when I was down there the first night and people said, "We were pepper sprayed without any warning, it was totally unprovoked." Or something to that effect. That night myself and a couple were watching this deputy loudly explain to the half dozen people that had been close to the fence and climbing on it that he was going to spray them unless they stopped touching the fence.....20 seconds later the 3 of us were retreating because it had caught the wind. We were warned from 30 feet away, how the hell do people right against the fence miss that?
Simple yes or no answer please, Norm.
Submitted by Mike on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 5:39am.Provided you are doing
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 7:56am.NO
Submitted by Mike on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 6:27pm.No
Submitted by Sarah on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 7:42pm.Question on back, are you aware of how emotionally loaded some of your language choice reads? How did you get from the story read to "folks who are crying because they were picked on"? I didn't read the story at all that way.
Remember: I have no problem with you or anyone wanting to hear other perspectives of this story. I don't have a problem at all with folks making their own choices about how to spend their money.
Answer
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 7:58pm.Maybe these folks were crying. Maybe not. You're description of them as crying seems like an insult though. Not very helpful to the conversation. If you ask me.
Sorry
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 9:32pm.Passive Aggression
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 10:27pm.Ok, I'm holding back from
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 10:38pm.me thinks he doth protest
Submitted by Mike on Tue, 10/10/2006 - 5:42am.Own it, Norm. You say and do offensive things and then when you get called on it, you say, well I didn't everyone would take it like that.
I don't think this is the person that you want to be.
I sometimes play the player because they are here engaged in discussion with the possible motivation of gaining understanding, including understanding of themselves.
I have always felt that the first question to ask in these kind of situations is who are you trying to fool when you back away from your words and deeds? If you are pretty self-aware and you do it, you are probably trying to fool others. If you are less self-aware you may do it to fool yourself. It's harder to engage with folks who are intent on fooling themselves about who they are, what their words and deeds truly say about what is in their heart.
Clarification
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Tue, 10/10/2006 - 6:25am.I think Norm does come off a
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 10/10/2006 - 7:23am.Maybe so. Tomorrow is the
Submitted by Mike on Tue, 10/10/2006 - 11:43am.So when folks make awful comments about dead children, the rage and grief of surviving parents, I just figure man, you just don't have a clue about it, and I hope you never have to get a clue about it.
Norm made the caterpillar post. I think he knew when he wore the logo that it would rile people. I think when he made the comment here he knew it would rile people. The thing he doesn't know is how it feels to have lost a child.
Saying that to him may have
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 10/10/2006 - 11:52am.I'm sorry for your loss. I
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 10/10/2006 - 12:31pm.I'm sorry for your loss. I can assure you I didn't wear the sweatshirt to rile anyone up. I can only tell you that I am being honest about that, accept it or not that is my truth. I know well that losing a child is very hard, unbearable for some. I've watched my grandparents struggle with it everyday for 20 years. I've seen the change in my grandfather from a bright and warm man into a very hollow person full of sorrow. I remember watching my mother cry when she realized that she was a 28 y/o widow with two children who would grow up never knowing their father. I remember realizing at 5 that I would never see my father again when my mom answered, "No" after I asked her if I could call "call dad for christmas".
I assure you, I am not the kind of person to take a poke at someone after they've lost a loved one. I do have my darker moments when it comes to death, but those tend to melt when it comes to people's losses. I have participated in one conversation about Ms. Corrie on this blog. She also happens to have been my age, so there was a lot of realization when she died. Keep in mind that I didn't agree with this girls ideals, her actions, her political views, yet I still remember being angry at God ( how typical of a catholic? ) when I first read about her death. I have tried my hardest to never make a negative comment about Ms. Corrie, or anything that could possibly border on it. For me, I think I've done quite well. Oh, and I've never met her parents.
Glad to hear it. But you
Submitted by Mike on Wed, 10/11/2006 - 12:39pm.You are not familiar with the caterpillar suit, right? You have not heard of the demonstrations at the caterpillar business in Tacoma, right? This seems strange when you are clearly interacting with the community that is working and actively involved with this corporation.
Do you get that you might get some pretty hostile reactions with that attire? Do you get that police at events might see the caterpillar logo and make some political judgments about you?
As far as meeting the Corries, I think they put up with a lot of flak from middle of the roaders and right wingers and I think if you are sensitive to their loss issues, knowing your middle of the road politics, I would suggest you just wave and smile at them if the opportunity arises. They have a lot to deal with it and seem to be doing it gracefully, but I think your "down on the farm" and "shoot from the hip" language might inflict pain and suffering that you are apparently unaware of.
Ok, I think I'm done with
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 10/11/2006 - 2:25pm.Ok, I think I'm done with this exchange Mike. I am feeling a little insulted by some of your remarks and I don't feel that this is healthy dialogue for an idea exchange and I think it goes against what this blogs purpose is for. Even your last post here seems to take a stab at me and I'm just not feeling good about that. Best of luck to you during this rough time.
Wow, I was actually unaware
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Wed, 10/11/2006 - 3:08pm.Wow, I was actually unaware that people were protesting Caterpillar. I knew the Corries had filed suit against Caterpillar, but I didn't realize it was get up, stand up against the company.
wearing a caterpillar logo to an activist event in Olympia is about as offensive as painting a swastika on the walls of the temple or hanging a noose and the confederate flag in your office.
Holy smokes. That's all I have to say about that one. Holy smokes.
so don't give money then or
Submitted by maria on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 10:14am.Have we ever met maria? You
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 11:00am.I'm not sure...
Submitted by Rick on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 11:15am....if "attracted" is quite the right word here.
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
I couldn't help it...
Submitted by enpen on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 11:33am."If you are a dreamer, come in. If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, a hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer. If you're a pretender, come sit by my fire, for we have some flax-golden tales to spin. Come in! Come in!"
Backing Norm up a little
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 11:43am.Backing Norm up a little bit, I'm always wondering about these stories where everyone was just standing/sitting around and are "all of a sudden" under arrest.
Never in my life while I was just standing/sitting around have I ever been arrested or, for that matter, had the police come talk to me.
an ignorant assumption...
Submitted by enpen on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 1:19pm."If you are a dreamer, come in. If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, a hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer. If you're a pretender, come sit by my fire, for we have some flax-golden tales to spin. Come in! Come in!"
Can't say I have.I'm
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 1:37pm.Can't say I have.
I'm thinking I should go out sometime, sit around and see if any law enforcement will approach me for doing nothing.
maybe...
Submitted by enpen on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 1:49pm."If you are a dreamer, come in. If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, a hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer. If you're a pretender, come sit by my fire, for we have some flax-golden tales to spin. Come in! Come in!"
I've been to two protests
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 2:36pm.oh Norm
Submitted by enpen on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 2:52pm.You're being facetious, right?
When I was 19 I got pulled over at 3am while driving down Rainier Ave. S through the Rainier Valley in Seattle. Apparently I was clocked at 70 mph (in a 35). I got off with a warning and the cop telling me that the next time I drove through that neighborhood late at night I should slow down when I see a squad car. I can't imagine the treatment I received had anything to do with me being white and looking moderately well-to-do. Nah....
"If you are a dreamer, come in. If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, a hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer. If you're a pretender, come sit by my fire, for we have some flax-golden tales to spin. Come in! Come in!"
I think body language has
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 3:08pm.I think body language has something to do with it also. I've been pulled over and given a ticket for doing 5mph over the limit. I was dressed in a suit with my girlfriend in the passenger seat wearing a dress. As luck would have it I was on my way to court to contest the previous ticket I got for doing 5 over the limit and show the judge what a good driving record I had. The judge had a good laugh, lemme tell ya.
The only thing that made me look different from any other protester was the fact that I was not wearing a bandana over my face, and I was wearing a sweatshirt with the caterpillar logo on it. Apparently given the reaction of other protesters there, I look like a cop, so possibly that has something to do with it also. I think attitude and body language shows more though.
Catepillar Logo
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 10:30pm.It's a logo, not unlike a
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 10:34pm.Oh, and the protests that I
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 3:19pm.zoom...there it goes
Submitted by enpen on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 3:33pm."If you are a dreamer, come in. If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, a hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer. If you're a pretender, come sit by my fire, for we have some flax-golden tales to spin. Come in! Come in!"
Ooops
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 3:38pm.RAce and Class
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 10:34pm.Could the same be true of today's protesters? Do some in society view them essentially as a different race?
Race
Submitted by DrewHendricks on Wed, 10/11/2006 - 11:33pm.Yup - I know all three. They're humans.
Fnord.
...blah...
Submitted by bunnyface on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 2:06pm.seriously,
there are a few things that i have picked up on while living on this planet, or is it just amerika, for just over two and a half decades. one of which is that if you hear a story pertaining to law enforcement and it sounds like its exaggerated on the case of the victim, it usually is not. especially if the victim is a person of color or poor. i've also noticed, and it has been documented, that police like to instigate violence so that they can then use the only thing that they understand when dealing with people, brute force.
now i've done my fair share of instigation when it comes to cops, and i am always willing to except the responsibility for what i provoke, but i know the flag three, very well actually. i also know that they did not want to have anything to do with cops when they went up there, more so they have also been known to try to deescilate situations like this, usually, and once or twice saved me from an 'assault on cop' charge. so anyways i just wanted to throw that out there.
and norm, if your posting comments on a public blog you can't expect everyone to appreciate every comment you throw out there.
Oh I expect it, and you can
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 2:39pm.Here's what I've learned:Not
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 3:09pm.Here's what I've learned:
Not to believe people any more or any less simply because they're a trusted civil servant or a victim with an accusation.
I look at a story using logic. Now, is it logical for a law enforcement officer to walk up to three people who are sitting down and holding a flag? I don't think so. I can't see it happening at least and I think it would require an irrational mind to read such a scenario and say, "That must be the truth."
That's not to say it's not what took place, it's just that when a situation doesn't seem right or logical that the burden of proof falls on the person to prove that an irrational situation took place.
Now, you don't have to prove it to me, Norm, or anyone else. I'm just explaining my thought process when I (and I'm sure others who are like-minded) read stories that seem out of the ordinary.
A question I've been meaning to ask (not of you, necessarily, but just when these stories are posted): Why is the name of the officer involved printed but not of the alleged victims? I assume the law enforcement name is printed to encourage accountability, which is fine. But shouldn't those making the accusations tag their name to the story, also?
logic
Submitted by enpen on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 4:23pm."Now, is it logical for a law enforcement officer to walk up to three people who are sitting down and holding a flag?"
Is this illogical to you, or is it illogical period? If you're stating that it's illogical, I would contend that this is a statement of perspective based deduction. Since the WTO protests in 1999 Seattle law enforcement has been on heightened alert for anarchists attempting to effectively take over other protests. One aspect of the heightened alert that I have personally witessed is the confiscation of anarchist symbols that are only released upon the owner(s) going to the police station and giving the police their name, address and social security number. Now, given that information, in what way would it be illogical to conclude that a Seattle police officer would approach a person carrying an anarcho-syndicalist flag in order to confiscate said flag?
Logic implies a method of reasoning that can allow anyone to arrive at the same conclusion from the same set of premises. Please keep that in mind when you decide to use the term again.
"If you are a dreamer, come in. If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, a hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer. If you're a pretender, come sit by my fire, for we have some flax-golden tales to spin. Come in! Come in!"
Ok, so if the department is
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 4:31pm.I'm gonna take a wild guess
Submitted by enpen on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 4:40pm.I do agree with you, Norm, in that I'd like to hear as many sides of the story as possible. I have seen Seattle police approach people of the anarchist and/or activist "look" with vastly different body language than polo wearin' Joe or Jane, though.
"If you are a dreamer, come in. If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, a hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer. If you're a pretender, come sit by my fire, for we have some flax-golden tales to spin. Come in! Come in!"
What we know:
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 4:49pm.What I think:
To say that they should not speak out against the actions of the cops is like saying you would just let a cop take your gun, which you, if you have the proper licenses, have every right to have, without taking a stand afterward. If we are going to live by socially accepted constructs, such as our constitution, then I think it is our duty to stand up for our rights. I cannot see any difference between the case of the flag and the example that I gave of the gun.
I can see a huge difference
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 9:29pm.confrontation
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 10:40pm.What is a "dirty cop,"
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 10:42pm.What is a "dirty cop," though?
The obvious is, say, selling cocaine out of a patrol car.
I get the impression, however, that a lot of people think aggressive policing is on par with being "dirty."
I didn't call anybody dirty.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 11:07pm.If indeed the three people
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 11:55pm.If indeed the three people were simply sitting around, holding a flag and were approached by a police officer (who then took their flag for no reason), I would say rights were most certainly violated.
That's why I said I don't think that's how it went down. Not saying it isn't possible, but I just can't swallow the likelihood of a police officer standing on the street corner, picking three people with a flag out, and then taking their flag for no reason other than self-entertainment (or, evidently, standard proceedure for the Seattle Police Department).
If people really thought their rights were being violated they wouldn't give the flag up in the first place. They would ask why their flag is being taken. And Norm, I couldn't disagree more. I'm going to start asking why they're taking my property. If I feel the situation is bad enough (such as in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina), I don't see myself handing over a firearm that I am in legal possession of.
It would be that much easier to tell the officer "no" with a sign. You don't ask for a reason after you hand your sign over. You ask for a reason before. If the reason is unsuitable to you, you don't give up your property.
Private property is the most important thing we have. Whether your private property is the land you live on or the backpack you're walking around with, the government had better have a pretty damn good reason to be interfering with it.
Private property is the devil.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 10/10/2006 - 7:37am.Oh, and private property is the devil. It's like heroin. Private property is why we fight. It's why we are in Iraq right now. It's why every war I can think of has ever been fought. You are right though, people are deluded enough, at a large enough scale that private property is considered the most important thing we have. I'm not saying we should all give up our possessions and live like hippies or beats. I'm just saying, who the fuck cares about stuff? Stuff that you can't take with you. Stuff that doesn't make you happy or pretty or smart or tough or God.
It justs makes you heavy.
Based on what? A hope you
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Tue, 10/10/2006 - 8:27am.Based on what? A hope you have in your heart that the police are here to protect and serve? Some undying faith in the American Dream? Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness?
Not at all. Like I said, I'm being asked to believe that three people were sitting down with a flag and, out of nowhere, a police officer approached the group and took the flag for no evident reason (other than it had an anarchy symbol).
Again, I'm not saying it couldn't have taken place in that way. I'm simply saying it's bizarre and, when you read numerous posts about people just "standing around" and being arrested, one has to wonder...
But evidently I'm one of the few who has milled around without being approached by law enforcement. I didn't realize how fortunate I really was.
TFI: Become aware of other realities
Submitted by Sarah on Tue, 10/10/2006 - 8:31am.I do understand your perspective. You write that you just can't swallow the likelihood of SPD doing that specific action reported.
I know we all have to make judgements and decisions based on what we experience. But ideally things don't then stop there. Sometimes it can be helpful to admit that life holds mysteries, we don't know what everyone else experiences, and even if something seems totally unlikely to us....it just might be true.
There are mysteries, there are unexpected occurences, and there are experiences other than our own. I may think I understand what it is like to a be a person who is X,Y, or Z, but I may have absolutely no f*ckin' clue. No matter how much I insist that I do.
I'm big on safety of all sorts, why I am writing this. I firmly believe that you will increase your safety if you realize that you just might not know. All the predictions and intelligence in the world won't stop the fact that you and I and everyone else don't always know everything, we are not the center of the universe, and that dog who is so sweet and has never ever bitten anyone is going to try to take a big chomp out of us. Or not.
WORD
Submitted by enpen on Tue, 10/10/2006 - 9:28am."If you are a dreamer, come in. If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, a hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer. If you're a pretender, come sit by my fire, for we have some flax-golden tales to spin. Come in! Come in!"
Why not let the cop keep the
Submitted by Mike on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 6:34pm.Hmmm... because he did not pay for it or make it? How about that answer.
Hmmmm... because he did not ask nicely for it? How about that answer.
Hmmm... because his confiscation of it was a constitutional violation, an interference in the most basic right we have - free speech? How about that answer.
So, if the folks at the Port had started stormin Norman and took his caterpillar sweatshirt, why not let them have it? Would that be ok with you? Can they take your camera also?
After all, you would have provoked that response by wearing that particular garment to that kind of event. The insensitivity of that gesture on your part should really shame you. It is really provocative and offensive.
Ok, first off, which is more
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 9:26pm.If I was pulled over, and the cop busted out my headlight and said he pulled me over because of my headlight. I would smile, and say I'll get that taken care of, and get up the next morning and report it to his commander. I KNOW that I will not win the confrontation, so my saying, "You dickmunch you busted out my headlight!" is not going to get me anywhere, I automatically lose. Chasing after a cop and his 2 buddies thinking I'm gonna rip the flag back out of his hand seems a little suicidal. Particularly with all of the dirty cop sentiments running around on this blog.
I just want to say that I've
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 11:13pm.And that was my point. If I
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 10/10/2006 - 8:07am.Lemonade...
Submitted by Phil Owen on Wed, 10/11/2006 - 5:10pm.I'd let the cop have the silly flag. As an anarchist, I can pretty easily say that the last thing in the world that is important to me is a flag, of any kind.
On the other hand, something that could be of GREAT value to me would be a photo of a police officer waving the ol' "red and black" (the anarcho-syndicalist flag).
So, let him keep the flag! But make sure to get a good picture!
lol
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 10/11/2006 - 6:14pm.Matthew Hyra actually is a bit of a...
Submitted by DrewHendricks on Wed, 10/11/2006 - 11:58pm.I mention this officer's formative period because in about a month he's going to turn 40. Yup, he went in as a middle adult, not as a punk 20 year old. That means he's probably ex-military. Ex-mil at that age is some cause for concern over whether he's a loose canon, but that is speculation. Let's let the man speak for himself about what he's like on the job:
Link to Sanyo love letter in which Matthew Hyra admits some lapses in judgement on the part of his employers and himself.
"As a police officer for the City of Seattle, I often find myself in unpleasant situations dealing with malcontents in my district, a district notorious for gang activity and heavy narcotics traffic. It has frequently been the case that I must chase and apprehend those unwilling to obey the law, and in the course of these events 'scuffles' occur resulting in damaged equipment as well as physical injury, specifically to myself."
(...)
"For the last five years this phone has not only performed up to my expectations, but has exceeded them in all categories. It has survived countless foot pursuits, four vehicle collisions, a myriad of 'scuffles' and at one point, when impaired by a love of fishing and a few beers, I fell into a freezing lake and fully submerged the phone for over a minute as I struggled to get out. "
(...)
"It saddens me to report that my phone is nearing its end.
(...)
Know that it will have a place of honor next to the keys of the four police cruisers I have totaled which, in turn, sit next to the myriad hospital ID tags from my many trips to the emergency room. "
Wonder why they put him on bike patrol?
In any case, finding this out about Matthew Hyra makes me tend to believe the story told by three people I know and three other people who were there, I got the call within 20 minutes of the event and the situation / story was the same, with fewer details. So I tend to believe the story as I have heard it - and yes, I have seen police do stuff like this before. Mostly in Seattle.