I don't know why a business can't extend their authority up to 6' in front of their establishment, as this directly impacts the ability of their patrons to freely move in and out.

On the one hand, the risk is that someone might have to step around someone else. BFD. On the other hand, I can easily see someone resisting this, and the whole thing turning into a really bad situation.

Joe, if you are reading this, understand that the burden of proof is on you to show us that we need this ordinance. Nobody I hear from wants or needs it, and frankly, I'm not sure I believe that what you said actually happened to you. How about you go around downtown and take pictures of all of the sidewalks being blocked. Joe, you went to college back east and studied politics, I know you know that there are systemic problems with Olympia that not only lead to failing businesses, but the homelessness that the failing is blamed on. Give us real solutions, or give up your seat.

"Everybody who imitates Christ is a fake Jesus." –Alan Watts

I have never heard of anyone experiencing anything like that in downtown. Except maybe when former mayor Stan Biles told of being chased down by an aggressive panhandler making threats and screaming profanities in response to the Mayor's courteous decline to give him change, or whatever.That was four years ago, the last time these types of ordinances were on the table.

I wonder why its only city officials who seem to have these weird, freak experiences of people downtown being unreasonably rude and threatening out of absolutely nowhere? (Well, ok, city officials, and the "friends" of people who never go downtown.) And they only mention these bizarre stories after some new "downtown safety" legislation has been drafted, and they are asked to defend it. And why are there never any witnesses?

Perhaps our downtown safety problem is specific to city government? Should we maybe give them bodyguards?

Next time something like this happens to a city official, whether the issue is deliberate and forceful sidewalk obstruction or blood-thirsty panhandlers, I want to see a police report, with a confession from the perpetrator. I'm sorry, but that is the only way I'm going to buy another one of these stories from a council member.

Jade

"Everybody who imitates Christ is a fake Jesus." –Alan Watts

To challenge Joe Hyer on his truthfulness with no evidence of that fact is wrong. I believe you better have proof of someone lying before you call them out.

I too have seen big groups of people blocking the sidewalks downtown in the past, usually in the summer time. Also businesses have complained about individuals blocking or nearly blocking the sidewalk and impeding their store front. So it does happen. Frequently, probably not from my perspective, but a business owner's "frequently standard" is likely different from mine.

As far as an ordinance, and Rick's concerns over the use of force to enforce that ordinance, it shouldn't be a problem. If the violators of the ordinance are directed to move and they move to comply with the law, no use of force. Just like the kid in the UCLA vid, comply and no force, fail to comply and pain compliance tools will likely be used on you(although a taser isn't a pain compliance tool). It is only if the violators MAKE THE CHOICE to not comply they would get some level of force used on them. And the more they failed to comply and used resistance to further that non-compliance the use of force would go up. So I see Rick's concerns fixed by people being reasonable, and comply with the law, all laws.

As for the contention there aren't a lot of people filling the council chambers with concerns about the sidewalk issue and other issues is they have an easier way to deal with it. They just go elsewhere with their business. Protesting and writing letters, etc. takes time. Most working families don't have the time to do that. And if they have the time, why bother when the fix is real easy going to Lacey or other locations in Olympia where they just don't have to deal with the social environment in downtown Oly. If the downtown was the only place to shop, you would likely see more people coming to complain, write letters, etc.

The argument that there is no problem, why have the law. Well, if there is no problem then nothing to worry about if the law goes into place. If we use the "it rarely happens" standard in Olympia, then should we apply that to all of our laws? We "rarely" have a murder in Olympia, maybe we should get rid of that law too.

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.

Distrust of elected officials is fine. Calling them a liar and not having proof is not.

Also for the record, the individuals I have seen in mass on the sidewalks haven't been the homeless.

And further, for what it's worth, the homeless generally aren't defiant when given legal direction. More of the TESC crowd, or juveniles have the 'tude.

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.

------ Original message -------
From: "Joe Hyer"

Rick -

And I want to thank you back for a thoughtful and civil tone - it's always the best route for discussion, but all too often, folks seem to revert to name calling and prejudgments in communications to us.

On your first point --- you're right, we can't prosecute someone for being a jerk. We can however, ensure they don't usurp the public space from everyone else. I also think you make a great point about people misunderstanding our intentions - and I think some will. Some will read more into this by choice, some because of past experiences, some because they believe already we have an ill intent towards the homeless. I can't help those biases - all I can do is try to be calm, explanatory, and do my best to explain our intentions, as well as the limits of what we are and aren't doing.

I do think, however, that a larger number of people than you think perceve this as a problem. You suggest that those who are downtown the most don't share my experiences. In all the comments I have heard in the past few months, the overwhelming majority (hard to quantify, but I would estimate 75-85%) have all agreed this is a problem - it was coming to consensus on how to deal with the problem that took time, not on agreeing on this specific problem.

I do continue to listen and learn, however, and if indeed I find most people concur thisw isn't a problem, I will rethink conclusions.

On the second - I saw the video from UCLA the day it came out. And I was appalled. There's an obvious lack of training at UCLA - by their 'security officers'. I refuse to call them 'police' as they actions would not be acceptable in any policing guidelines, particularly in ours.

Is the risk of a bad reaction to authority worth the problem we are trying to solve? Actully, that's an excellent filter by which to put these things through, and one I had not considered. It's basically a cost-benefit analysis test - and in this case, I think it is. I have witnessed our police officers in action, on ride-alongs as well as in situations when they didn't even know I was watching (the real test) and have always seen them act with the utmost care and respect for the law, and for people in general.

There are instances when our police forces across the country get black eyes because an officer does something (with a Taser, or in New orleans looting, etc etc) poorly, or with ill-intent. But to fear or characterize ALL (or even most) police because of these extreme instances --- I think that simply feeds the distrust and fear which we are all trying to fight.

Last night, I flipped over to FOX news for a laugh, and saw the strangest documentary- depicting Arab Americans burning flags in New York, in Iran, and saying hateful things about Americans. They seemed to pull the most extreme examples they could find, and put them altogether, to try and paint a picture that ALL followers of Islam are this way - and hence create or re-inforce FEAR and DISTRUST in their viewers. It was so blantantly biased I not only didn't find it funny, I found it frightening, windering fi there really are people who takes such things seriously.

They took the most extreme examples, declared them every day occurrences, and tried to create fear. While I concede there are instances of inappropriate law enforcement and police brutality - to depict them as the norm, as some choose to, simply creates a fear and distrust of the police that is in many ways as unfair as declaring all followers of Islam as enemies of America.

Our entire police force has also been trained in ways most have not - our CIT, or crisis intervention training, teaches officers how to deal with mental illness, and individuals who have a problem with authority. I don't know of another department in the country whose entire force has had such training.

I do fear for our police officers, but in another way. I often fear that they will eventually end up with a type of PTSD from having to deal with so many difficult situations, their heart wanting to help people, their sense of duty making them enforce the law. It is a reaction to this that often drives an officer to become too harsh or brutal...and I contonue to focus on, ask about, and attempt to ensure that ALL of our officers recieve counseling or help if needed, aren't allowed to do so much overtime that they are overstressed, etc. We need to look at the causes of why a few officers give the rest a bad name - and a lack of training or support can easily lead someone down that road.

Thanks,

Joe

It can be a difficult group here to give the police a pat on the back to. I appreciate your courage to say you have seen our officers do a good job. I know we do a good job 99% of the time, and this community is fortunate to have a good group of officers. Occasionally we do stub our toe, but it's the rare event, rather than the status quo.

It is important to the officers to hear "our bosses" the City Council, say they are happy with our work. And for a politician take the extra step to give a public compliment in a forum that has its share of anti-authoritian members is appreciated.

I also know you would chew us up if you thought we deserved it. So from the Olympia Police Department, thank you.

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.

Well Rick, you inspired me. I just e-mailed my two pistoles to the entire Council. I really hope they don't push this through. And if they do, I'll be sittin' right next to you on the sidewalk, Phil.

"It is a rare mind indeed that can render the hitherto non-existent blindingly obvious. The cry 'I could have thought of that' is a very popular and misleading one, for the fact is that they didn't, and a very significant fact it is too."

here we go again :)

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.

campaign website, right? 

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.

and youth causes too.

Maybe he wants balance in the downtown, both the issues you all are concerned with and the issues businesses are concerned with.

Check out his endorsement list too. Interesting I think.

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.