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Submitted by Rick on Mon, 12/04/2006 - 7:59am.
[Episcopal News Service] The Episcopal Diocese of Olympia, meeting October 27-28 in its 96th annual Convention, called upon the Episcopal Church's bishops and standing committees to join the diocese's affirmation for the full inclusion of gay and lesbian people in the life of the church. The resolution, detailed below, passed with 317 in favor, 79 against, and 51 abstentions.
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Ah point?
Submitted by OlyCop on Mon, 12/04/2006 - 4:36pm.You are a non-believer Rick, what is the point of the post then?
Either it's bait, or you're trolling, either way, I'll bite.
"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.
I can speak to that.
Submitted by Phil Owen on Mon, 12/04/2006 - 8:36pm.I for one am really proud of my bishop and my church. We've just elected the first female presiding bishop (similar to the archbishop in other provinces) in the Anglican communion. Many Episcopal priests are beginning to bless gay marriages. The likes of Dorothy Day, Sojourner Truth, and Oscar Romero are regularly presented as heroes in the faith in Sunday sermons.
The Church was on the cutting edge of social change during the civil rights movement, as it should be now. The Gospel is for transforming society, not for maintaining the status quo.
It seems perfectly clear to me that Rick has an interest in social change. Why in the heck shouldn't he take notice when the Church presents itself as a leader for change?
The Canaanite's Call
non-believer
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 12/04/2006 - 5:04pm."Everybody who imitates Christ is a fake Jesus." –Alan Watts
What he said.
Submitted by Rick on Mon, 12/04/2006 - 5:35pm.When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
What I saw
Submitted by OlyCop on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 9:41am.Was a guy that doesn't believe in God, by his own admission, posting about a church taking a position on a social issue and turning its back on the bible at the same time. So the further watering down of the Christian beliefs is a win for the non-believers, and Rick was rejoicing in that.
I believe what has happened in Episcopal church is apostasy. Clearly it is unbiblical. But the Episcopal church isn't the only church that continues to fall away from the bible, the United Methodists are too(began ordaining practicing homosexuals quite some time ago), and probably others.
As long as the choices these churches make are not forced onto other churches, that's fine. They can believe what they want to believe. My concern is that the moral decline in churches continues at a rate that the churches that cling to the Word of God are forced to follow a path of compromise in order not to be condemed, a form of religious persecution.
What I see in the above article is not something to rejoice about, it is some thing very sad. And it's not just homosexuality, its about sin. The article could have very well said that church was embracing idol worship, theft, drunkeness, viewing porno, etc. All of those are sins, and we Christian need to work to remove sin from the church, not invite it in. The Episcopal's, UM', and others continue to be churches of compromise. Societal issues don't drive a church's belief system, the Bible is the foundation, and must be followed.
"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.
We will never agree on this.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 10:22am."Everybody who imitates Christ is a fake Jesus." –Alan Watts
Give it a chance
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 10:47am.In the Course of Events
Christianity is a world of absolutes.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 11:16am."Everybody who imitates Christ is a fake Jesus." –Alan Watts
Frankly,...
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 11:15am....I'm surprised by your response, OC. I recall that you'd changed your position on the issue of marriage, which seems to me at least similar to opening opportunities for gays and lesbians in the church. I thought you would see this post as a good thing. In general, whether I believe in god is irrelevant to the issue of this being important news for Olympia.
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
I did
Submitted by OlyCop on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 11:32am.change my opinion on gay marriage. Much like I don't believe my religious beliefs should affect someone that wants to view porn, or worship idols, etc.
With your last statement Rick, I guess I'm less upset than what I took from the original post. I suppose the article could be important to some here in Olympia. But I will say, the position this church took on this issue does a disservice to those who want to follow the Bible.
Rob, I'm not anti-gay. But I do know that my belief system says this activity is a sin. No worse than many other sins, but a sin never the less. And churches ought not embrace sin. I would pray for someone gay to get over their sin just like I would pray for a co-worker that works too much overtime and his God has become money.
As for puppies, I'm a dog lover.
"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.
Wow... sorry I've been offline so long...
Submitted by Phil Owen on Sun, 12/10/2006 - 12:08am.Have a look at the essay On God and Gays on my blog. The Scriptures really don't have anything to say about homosexuality as we understand it today. And I'll have you know that the fuel for change in the Episcopal church IS based in Scripture... in the Gospel message of God's uncompromising love for us. The sacrament of marriage is a vessel for the revelation of His love, and no person has the right to stand in the way of that revelation.
The Canaanite's Call
They set religious purity
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Sun, 12/10/2006 - 12:36am.So are the preceeding and succeeding "religious purity standards" applicable (e.g. " The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness"; " For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people")?
I'm only looking at chapter 18, which would appear to address acceptable sexual practices.
Also, I thought Leviticus had more to do with surviving in the desert versus maintaining any religious purity standard?
Out of curiousity, is polygamy explicitly addressed in either the New or Old Testament? You seem pretty up-to-date on biblical scholarship, so I'm just curious how many other sexual practices were omitted/addressed in the Bible?
A little complex.
Submitted by Phil Owen on Sun, 12/10/2006 - 6:47pm.The neighbors of Israel - Egypt and Canaan, which often fell under Egyptian rule - were considered to be wicked societies. They were idolatrous, gluttonous, and violent. If Israel was to be "set apart" - if it was to maintain its holy status as God's chosen people - it had to eliminate all practices common among the neighboring nations. These practices included human sacrifice, temple prostitution (specifically including male-male prostitution, which is why Lev 18:22 only refers to male-male activity), pederasty, idol worship, etc. Israel went beyond this to create specialized dietary restrictions and other codes separating its people from the pagans.
Though desert survival may have influenced some of the rules, the primary intention was to set Israel apart from the world. This was tricky; the Canaanites weren't just neighbors in the sense of sharing a national border. Rather they were mixed up among the Hebrews on many of the same lands.
The various sets of codes are intermingled in Leviticus. The diversity of themes even in a single chapter can be dizzying (this may be one of the reasons why many Christians relate to the book as a "flyover" chapter in the Bible, though it actually does have quite a bit of value for us).
We find in Ch 17 rules regarding proper sacrifice of animals, and a stern admonition not to eat the blood of animals. Those who eat the blood will "be cut off" from the people.
Ch 18 begins with the very reasons for many of the codes of Leviticus: "You shall not do as they do in the land of Egypt... and you shall not do as they do in the land of Canaan.... You shall not follow their statutes. My ordinances you shall observe and my statutes you shall keep..."
The chapter goes on to discuss a number of sexual practices, using "uncover their nakedness" as a euphemism for having sex. Parts of the chapter are strange; Lev 18:19 forbids men from "uncovering the nakedness" of women during menstrual "uncleanness". The next verse forbids adultery. The following verse forbids child sacrifice.
And then 18:22 "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." This line is interesting in that it only forbids anal intercourse between men. It has no application to lesbians. Furthermore, the word roughly translated as "abomination" is the Hebrew to'evah, which translates better as "ritual impurity". Had moral sin been implied, the Hebrew word zimah probably would have been used.
We can also look to the consequences laid out. The consequence for ANY action listed in Ch 18 is to be "cut off from the people". This (banishment or shunning) is the same punishment given for eating the blood of an animal.
This is also the same punishment laid out in 19:8 for anyone who eats the sacrificial meat more than two days after it was sacrificed! (Anyone accidentally eaten the steak that sat too long in the fridge? Banishment!) And we find again in Ch 19 that what is essentially a ritual code (when to eat the sacrificial meat) is preceded and followed by important moral codes (revere your father and mother; save the crops on the edges of your field for the poor).
So yes, Leviticus is a little bit complicated. However, the distinction between to'evah and zimah, as well as the narrow parameters given in 18:22 and the historical context in Canaan, gives the very clear sense that 18:22 had to do with ritual cleanliness specific to the Hebrew people and NOT with moral uprightness.
Lastly, on your question about polygamy, here is this from religioustolerance.org: Esau had 3 wives, Jacob had 2, Ashur had 2, Elkanah had 2, Solomon had 700 (!), Rehaboam had 3, Abijah had 14. There are numerous other examples in the Old Testament of men having more than one wife. And don't forget about Abraham conceiving Ishmael with Hagar, Sarah's servant woman.
Women were considered to be the property of men in ancient Hebrew society. There were many customs at the time, many outlined in the Bible, that we would find to be extraordinarily horrific and immoral. This is one of the reasons why it is very important to distinguish God's message to us from the context in which it was written.
The Canaanite's Call
church splits
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Sun, 12/17/2006 - 3:43pm.