Olympian values

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Olympian values

Submitted by Rick on Wed, 03/22/2006 - 9:07pm.

The Olympian published an interesting opinion today. Evidently, the Olympian endorses corporations that engage in all of the following behaviors:

Under the plan, a report card would be used to grade businesses on whether they discriminate against employees, pay a living wage, pay overtime, allow workers to join unions and give part of their profits back to the community.

And again, the paper flogs that old fallacy about how low paying jobs are better than no job at all. Except the facts don't support it. For example, the introduction of a Wal-Mart results in a net loss of jobs in a community.

Go read it. It's heady stuff. There is a good comment by Drew Hendricks in the comments.

Rick's blog
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I agree with the Olympian,

Submitted by white feather on Thu, 03/23/2006 - 12:37pm.

I agree with the Olympian, the Council finally did the right thing rather than hook up with this "looney" idea. Any kid in a junior high economics class, or anyone with some common sense, could tell you that wouldn't work, and certainly wouldn't help the City with their financial problems.

Your values

Submitted by Rick on Thu, 03/23/2006 - 1:35pm.

So you think it is ok for corporations to pay less than subsistance wages, externalize their health care costs to state government, abuse the environment, put local shops out of business, etc.? It is you that have the explaining to do, because to me, it is a slam dunk that communities have every right to protect themselves from this kind of behavior.

We’ve talked about the

Submitted by white feather on Thu, 03/23/2006 - 4:06pm.

We’ve talked about the health care issue before and you should remember where I stand there. But in-case you forgot, I believe if the business is large enough, they should have to provide at least basic health care and the tax payer shouldn’t have to pick up the tab. I believe the insurance companies are dirty in this too, as are the doctors, but that is another discussion.

So how much is a subsistence wage? Is it having to go up due to the taxation of the working man, to support social programs? Probably part of it. And the high level of social programs is the making of your side of the middle.

Abuse of the environment? Gonna have to be more specific on that. Some things I might agree with you is abuse, other things I likely will disagree is abuse. Certainly use of the environment is not abuse.

Communities have the right to set standards, yes. But if the standards are unreasonable they will fail on their face. At least the City Council had enough sense to see this idea was a big loser, and we didn’t have to feel the pain before we abandoned it, because we would have abandoned it, or the downtown/city would have died a death.

Something you guys forget, it’s the big box stores, auto mall, the mall, etc. that pay for your social programs, your parks, your fire dept. your police dept. Without the taxes you can't support that stuff anymore. And the mom and pop businesses can’t make up the differences, particularly if you have them pay wages outside what their business will support.

Also, its now not just a national economy, its international. And with the internet, I can shop world wide. And unlike you Rick, I’m not a Doctor with reams of money, so I have to shop for the best price. Currently I try to put my money back into this community, but only if the business is competitive. If not, I will go elsewhere, and have gone clear around the world for that bottom line improvement.

If it wasn’t so easy to get welfare, people would be more thankful for a minimum wage job. Because back during my great grandparents time they did work hard, they didn’t take handouts, and they earned what they had. Unlike many of the X generation. They think they have a right to the things I have had to work for.

It doesn't add up

Submitted by Rick on Thu, 03/23/2006 - 4:56pm.

If the big box stores subtract jobs out of the local economy, then how exactly are they paying the taxes for social programs, especially when the wages they pay cause more people to need help from social programs? If you want to look at who to tax, look at the top 5% of the folks who pay the least amount.

The environmental issue: Wal-Mart stored its chemicals (such as herbicides and pesticides) on pallets in the parking lot, and they were very reluctant to change their practice.

In a broader context, I don't understand why you think that a corporation has any interests other than its own in mind. Its interests certainly don't align with my values. Why trust a corporation that is under constant pressure from investors to make more and more money, in any way it can. Do you own stock in Wal-Mart?

Nope, no stock in walmart,

Submitted by white feather on Thu, 03/23/2006 - 5:50pm.

Nope, no stock in walmart, but I probably should.

Pesticides on pallets, thats all you got??? You will just cringe to know I have close to a ton of diazinon in my shed. I bought lots of it when they said they were going to quit selling it. It works far better than anything else for crane fly, ants etc. I love the stuff. So I probably put more pesticide in the environment than 10 walmarts each year. I got enough to last a lifetime, or at least until I start growing a third arm out of my back.

Cmon Rick, Olympia lives and dies by sales tax. That is one of the largest revenue sources for the city. What do you think would happen to the city revenue if the auto mall, home depot, lowes, to name a few, left the city for elsewhere? You think the electric rose, and the china clipper is going to step up with the same revenue?

I think there should be a flat tax of an amount, lets say the most common talked about amount, 10%. So if you make 12000.00 for the year you pay your 1200.00. And if you make a million, you pay your 100,000.00 Everyone pays the same. That is my vision of taxing.

Also, I would do away with withholding of income tax. I would have people cut a check to the IRS every month based on their income. If people had to cut a check every month, they would be much less likely to agree to tax increases.

No sheds

Submitted by Rick on Thu, 03/23/2006 - 7:04pm.

The problem with Wal-Mart was that the didn't have any sheds and the bags (many of them damaged) leaked into a nearby river, killing lots of critters.

The discussion is not just about values (which I think is important enough), but also about how to best protect the local economy. Wal-Mart is bad for the local economy. If communities all around the state had been better about protecting their local economies, there would still be mom and pop business doing the same about of traffic -- just not in one large box store. You can't make the argument that these places take in so much tax revenue without considering what the alternatives look like.

Let's compare...

Submitted by DrewHendricks on Thu, 03/23/2006 - 2:28pm.

Kids: WASL will test specific knowledge and problem solving abilities to see if they meet our expectations.

Business: Of course it's a stupid idea to think we even have an interest in setting standards for business, so no WASL for business. No Community can set its own standards. F*&k democracy.

No, thank you. I'll trust my community to set stanards for a living wage and responsible employer behavior any day. So would you, White Feather, if you had to work as hard as your great grandmother did.

It's the only editorial stance on that topic they could have

Submitted by Drew3000 on Fri, 03/24/2006 - 5:56pm.

The Olympian was long owned by Gannett and much of the corporate values of that company still seem alive and well. This is really the only stance the paper could have on this issue since if such a program were launched, the paper would rate around the Wal-Mart level. Different ownership may bring changes, but for decades, the paper was owned by a company notorious for breaking laws to drive out competition, sucking money out of the communities where it has papers and busting any attempts to unionize. Knight Ridder, which just sold the O, has a history of keeping bare-bones staffing. When the paper goes over to McClatchy, the company will have a virtual monopoly along the I-5 corridor (once the P-I is put down), owning The 0, the Tribune and 49 percent of the Seattle Times. Expect resource sharing to follow, meaning fewer people in all their newsrooms and job cuts in either the news or business side or both. The last thing a company like that wants are pesky community members looking at what it brings them compared to what it takes.

As the opinion said, it's

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Fri, 03/24/2006 - 8:06pm.

As the opinion said, it's one thing to waste public money grading different businesses on ethics. It's quite another to advocate government have the power to shut down a private business because they don't adhere to practices you wish they would engage in.

Here's how a community "protects" itself from a large corporation: You don't shop there.

There is democracy in the market, Drew. We vote with our dollar.

Hmmm

Submitted by Drew3000 on Sat, 03/25/2006 - 4:25pm.

True. People do spend their money where their values are, when they think about it. And divestment/boycotts have had their effects, either for the better or worse depending on your outlook on whatever particular issue causes it. I didn't see anywhere that said this "report card" would give government the "power to shut down" any business, and I think such a proposal would be chilling to some people, depending on the business, I guess. I mean, such a thing would bug me no matter the business. Though, the government currently does have the power to shut down businesses. It can take away alcohol serving licenses, food serving licenses, enact highly restrictive zoning ordinances, keep adult-oriented businesses from find viable shop space, restrict businesses based on what sort of "element" it attracts to certain so-called "high crime" areas, restrict the sale of low-priced alcohol simply because it stereotypically is the choice of homeless drinker, close businesses on the basis of whether it offers smoking, etc. And with regards to restaurants, you can already find sanitation records published in the paper each week, letting you know which eateries scored well and which were dinged for what. I'll read the editorial and the original proposal again, but I don't recall anywhere that said "and if it ranks at a certain grade, the government will close the business in question." Didn't spot it. Will look again. All in all, a clearinghouse of information — run by a public institution — about any local business' standards and practices, labor issues, wages, benefits packages, trade issues if they apply, and so forth is not a bad thing in my mind. More specifically, what is looked into and how it gets rated would be something to figure out and look at with a critical eye. If such information could be formatted in a database, then, as you suggest, people could much more easily vote with their dollars.

From the article:Under the

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Sat, 03/25/2006 - 4:35pm.

From the article:

Under the Reclaim Democracy proposal, businesses scoring below 50 percent on their report card would have to close their doors in two months. Those scoring between 50 percent and 89 percent would be put on probation to raise their score or face closure. Think about the absurdity. A company has a nonunion work force and a thin profit margin that doesn’t allow much charitable giving in the community.

Am I misreading this portion of the editorial?

I agree, government does have too much power over private business today.

Who is government?

Submitted by Rick on Sat, 03/25/2006 - 5:29pm.

You talk abou the government like it's some other entity. The government is YOU! If the government doesn't represent your interests, then get active.

The government is not me.

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Sun, 03/26/2006 - 8:54am.

The government is not me. The government is elected to represent the majority.

That's democracy. Fifty-one taking from forty-nine.

Say what?

Submitted by Rick on Sun, 03/26/2006 - 9:18am.

Just because your candidate didn't win the election, you repudiate the government? Look -- this present administration is the embodiment of pure evil in my book, but it is still my government.

Your kind of thinking leads to people like Tim McVeigh.

be reasonable

Submitted by Rob Richards on Sun, 03/26/2006 - 9:27am.

In this case, I'd say you're both right. TFI is correct, this IS a representative gov't, I can't walk into the capital or city hall and demand changes be made with the expectation that changes will be made. Rick is right in that 'we the people', are suposed to be served by our elected officials. That's not happening in a lot of cases right now, but it doesn't make it any less true.

Also, Rick, I have to call you out on that Tim McVeigh line. A wise man once said on this very site, "play the ball not the man".

Maybe...

Submitted by Rick on Sun, 03/26/2006 - 9:35am.

But I think there is a real issue here.

I don't think TFI is going to start blowing up buildings, but the kind of talk that turns people that you don't agree with into the enemy IS dangerous. I think it is a radical position to say that the government is not mine, because it doesn't represent exactly the way I think things should be.

Be that as it may, I apologize, TFI, if I gave offense.

Personally, I didn't Rick's

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Sun, 03/26/2006 - 9:41am.

I wonder how history will look at McVeigh? Do you think history's perception will change from the contemporary view?

Also, I took no offense from the comment. Rick is right that when government is being preached as "against" the people there are some who will try and take dramatic steps.

Sometimes

Submitted by Rob Richards on Sun, 03/26/2006 - 10:07am.

Using your point about 51/49, there has always been, and will always be groups that are on that losing side and speak out against the gov't, sometimes strongly. People like McVeigh do not usually come out of that. There were many radicals that came together in his life which led to the Oklahoma City event, politics was one of those, but not the only one. I assume he will one day have that strange kind of 'Mansonesque' popularity. Vilified by most, glorified by some misguided individuals.

McVeigh was a nut yes, but???

Submitted by white feather on Sun, 03/26/2006 - 8:02pm.

The McVeigh piece brings up an opportunity to talk about if any of you would take up arms against your government.

So are there any scenarios that you would be willing to rebel against, even use force??

And there's that

Submitted by Drew3000 on Sat, 03/25/2006 - 5:32pm.

You beat me to it. Certainly chilling from the appearance of it in that paragraph, but it was voted down. If it's something that basic, then it wouldn't be that helpful. However, I don't think that actually represents the plan Reclaim Democracy is putting forth.

As the editorial says, the Reclaim Democracy website claims to be targeting large corporations with these standards, multi-million and billion dollar enterprises, rather than small businesses and mom & pops. It goes on to say that there is no way to differentiate between the two and hold them to different standards, and I would disagree with that. Reclaim Democracy's site addresses that in some places with very specific wording, it seems.

Maybe big business is right, though, and we should stop trying to regulate them and trying to get them to help our economy instead of leach off it: If we give up enough of our standards of living in this country, we'll get those jobs back from China.

The actual Reclaim Democracy proposal does seem to go to great lengths to be specific about the aims and objectives of not holding small businesses and mom & pops, places run and owned by locals to the same labor union standards and community investment as the big box stores, fast food chains and corporate newspapers that drive cash out of town, and this seems to be the real problem for the 0's editorial board. the proposal targets business that thrive by taking money and living-wage jobs out of the community, and contains rather specific definitions in it's plan about what it's going after.

You can see it here:

http://reclaimdemocracy.org/rdc/index.php?title=Community_Values_Act

After reading it, I'm still not sure whether this exact plan is for Oly, but a version of it still sounds like a good place to start. People here have a DIY ethic and could fashion something a little different and entirely useful for keeping our town vibrant, original and encourage locally owned and staffed business. The attempt is a good one. Places that tend to go without any standards or requirements tend to look, um, like ass. And are boring.

I'm doubting the actual document will win many converts among those who don't like these sorts of things, but I think anyone reading Reclaim Democracy's actual proposal most folks will see that the 0's editorial glossed over the specifics and made a generalization that jived with what its management wanted to hear no matter what. As for me, I think a version of this idea would work well here.

Keep Oly Funky!

See, I'm not buying into the

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Sun, 03/26/2006 - 9:05am.

See, I'm not buying into the notion that "big business" only exports money and doesn't put any back into the community.

Just from a business perspective, at the very least it would be bad PR not to donate to the community.

I remember playing high school soccer one year when the Miller Brewing Company (the same company LOTT forced out) donated a pretty substantial amount (comparatively speaking) to our soccer program. Let's not also forget in Tumwater the 4th of July event in is put on in part by private business.

I've even been told the Wal-Mart in Chehalis has made it possible for the local police department to have two K-9 units. For now, put the conflict of interest (a private company paying for police equipment) aside.

Playing youth sports my entire life, I've been sponsored by everything from L&E Bottling (Pepsi) to a retirement home. I know companies like McDonald's and Wal-Mart do the same (sponsor youth events).

So maybe these companies are putting money back into the community, just not in areas where most Olympians are active.

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