I think there is a distinction to be made.

I'm sorry. I know you are trying to make a peace offering here, but how can you say things like religion is the cause of all violence, and then expect the world to work together with you?

How can you say you don't believe in "I'm right, you're wrong" when you just said yourself you are anti-religious and you keep proving it through your discourse?

There are a lot of gentle religious bloggers here and you just launched a major attack on their ideas, only to turn around and tell US we need to learn to get along.

Religion may not be the great uniter, but niether is anti-religion. No one likes to be lectured by those who think they know better. Jade

(A Rose in the Pumpkin Patch)

Okay, I gotta get this off my chest. I was really offended at the things you said in the last thread.

Some of it, both in tone as well as in the specific tactics of argument you used (taking scripture out of context, making inaccurate generalizations about people of faith, etc.) reminded me a lot of the kind of really racist stuff that comes out of the mouths of the very far right (such as generalizing muslims as terrorists, taking quotes from the Koran out of context, etc.).

I really do hope you read all the responses I posted.  Particularly the one on the Psalms.  It may help to clarify things for you.

To me, religion doesn't hold any "answers" either. My faith is a way of getting out of my own head, a structure that allows me to experiment with humility (god and my friends know I need it). It is a context within which I can see what's missing for me, what I can give up, and what's possible. There are many things that serve this purpose for me; my sporadic, undisciplined and half-assed religious meandering is only one of them. I also enjoy talking with people about things that are important to me, spending time with my cat, working at Bread & Roses, reading books, taking time for long baths and occasionally writing. All these things contribute to my growth. My beliefs, religious and otherwise, inform my anti-poverty, pro-environment, getting-along-with-others activities. Much like the passage from the Qu'ran quoted by Phil in the previous thread, I choose my friends from those who support and respect me and whose integrity is evident in their actions, regardless of what faith if any they practice. I appreciate that there are lots of people who, like me, have a variety of sources for their strength and growth. I will defend anyone's right to be "religious" or "non-religious". We CAN talk about this, we ARE talking about this, and we will probably continue to talk about it. Being attached to a resolution of this conversation (ie, "someday everyone will believe the same thing") is the only thing we have to fear. Our diversity of beliefs is a strength, as is our unshakable respect for each other.

After talking with you a little bit, I'm getting a sense of what you're trying to get at, Rob.

I would strongly recommend, for the sake of both strengthening your argument as well as to avoid offending decent people, that you take some time to research the different religions that you are concerned with.  I don't just mean studying the Rapturists, but also the faith of the Catholic Worker.  Delve deeply into both the views of the megachurches as well as Liberation Theology.  Read Ann Coulter and Martin Luther King.  Go a little deeper and study Paul Tillich and Reinhold Niebur, as well as the various methods for interpreting scripture.

And don't limit it to Christianity, either.  Have a deep look at Zionism, both fundamentalist as well as mystical.  You could start with Martin Buber.  He was a Zionist of the type that I can have a deep and abiding respect for.

Study the history of the occupation of Palestine, going back to the 19th century roots of Zionism, to the Ottoman Empire, through the British mandate and the wars of 1948 and 1967.  I think that you will find ethnicity to be a greater factor than religion... Palestine was very diverse prior to the creation of Israel; it included muslims, jews, christians, druze, bedhouins, etc, who lived in relative peace with one another.  These were indigenous people who ALL have suffered under occupation.  Haven't you heard of the horrific discrimination against Palestinian Jews by the people of Israel?

Once you have really learned the motivations and ideologies of your opponents, Rob, you will be better armed to enter into dialogue with them.  The motivations and ideologies of say, the Irish Catholic terrorists are very different from those of Pat Robertson's followers, whos ideologies are very different from Hezbollah, whos ideologies are very different from Al Queda, so this will take some work.

Also, once you have really learned the motivations and ideologies of your potential allies, who include Christians, Muslims, and Jews, you will be better suited to inspire them in their work, or at least be better understanding so as not to offend them.

One last thing.  This is NOT all one issue, as you have tried to argue with me.  Religion may be a kind of social category under which many things fall, but so is politics.  The diversity of opinion within religion is far, far greater than in politics.  Again, I wouldn't compare you to Stalin or Hitler because of the fact that you have political views and they had political views.  To do so would be absurd.  Please don't make the corresponding mistake with religion.