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Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 09/01/2006 - 7:33pm.
Sam Harris, author of The End of Faith, has a new book coming out on the 19th of September titled, Letter To A Christian Nation. I am excited about this book, I think he is one of the most important minds of our time simply because he dares to ask questions that no one else will. He challenges the status quo, and makes his points eloquently and wisely, yet is accessible to all.
» In his note to the reader, he writes: "Forty-four percent of the American population is convinced that Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead sometime in the next fifty years. According to the most common interpretation of biblical prophecy, Jesus will return only after things have gone horribly awry here on earth. It is, therefore, not an exaggeration to say that if the city of New York were suddenly replaced by a ball of fire, some significant percentage of the American population would see a silver-lining in the subsequent mushroom cloud, as it would suggest to them that the best thing that is ever going to happen was about to happen—the return of Christ. It should be blindingly obvious that beliefs of this sort will do little to help us create a durable future for ourselves—socially, economically, environmentally, or geopolitically. Imagine the consequences if any significant component of the U.S. government actually believed that the world was about to end and that its ending would be glorious. The fact that nearly half of the American population apparently believes this, purely on the basis of religious dogma, should be considered a moral and intellectual emergency.The book you are about to read is my response to this emergency..." And begins the book with: "Thousands of people have written to tell me that I am wrong not to believe in God. The most hostile of these communications have come from Christians. This is ironic, as Christians generally imagine that no faith imparts the virtues of love and forgiveness more effectively than their own. The truth is that many who claim to be transformed by Christ's love are deeply, even murderously, intolerant of criticism. While we may want to ascribe this to human nature, it is clear that such hatred draws considerable support from the Bible. How do I know this? The most disturbed of my correspondents always cite chapter and verse."
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And then there are we
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 09/01/2006 - 8:26pm.Were you wanting the perspective of another Christian? or did I miss the point in all of this?
But really, I think if you
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Sat, 09/02/2006 - 10:41am.But really, I think if you took a poll during any period you are going to see that the numbers are probably similar.
For instance, do you think we're in any worse of a religious "emergency" than colonial New England? What about George Whitefield's "revival" meetings?
Human emotion doesn't change, and you know what a common human belief is? That the world will end in their lifetime.
Whether it's Jesus coming back and taking everyone home with him or Al Gore warning us that we're all going to roast, people have believed for a long, long time that something significant to humanity will happen while they are around to see it.
I think a lot of it stems from the need to feel a part of something bigger than ourselves, but that's just me being an amateur psychologist.
I did want to hear the
Submitted by Rob Richards on Sat, 09/02/2006 - 11:18am.TFI, perhaps Harris answers your question in the book, which you should read. I think that perhaps religion does have more power now than it ever has due to technological advances. Christianity and Islam have certainly spread farther and converted more people. I don't agree with you that everyone has a doomsday idea of some sort in their minds. I certainly don't, and I don't get that feeling from most of the people that I know. I admittedly don't roll with heavily religious people, so perhaps my view is askew.
I think personally that religion can be a helpful thing in some ways, not for me but for others I'm sure, but only if people stop looking for something in it. Let go. The answers are inside of you, not in some external source. Alan Watts uses this example: Imagine when you're born, you are pushed over a cliff. When you are pushed, a giant rock falls with you. Most people immediately grab ahold of this rock and cling to it for their lives. They don't realize, or care, that the rock is not stopping their fall. They cling to it for security, to feel safe. What people need to do is let go of the rock and just fall, nothing you can possibly do will stop you from falling, so you might as well enjoy it. I think once people realize this, then religion can be quite nice.
Reclaiming "Religious"
Submitted by Phil Owen on Sun, 09/03/2006 - 10:07am.You do roll with heavily religious people, Rob. Just not heavily crazy people.
You're right. I guess I
Submitted by Rob Richards on Sun, 09/03/2006 - 10:43am.First off, "Rapturism", as
Submitted by Phil Owen on Sun, 09/03/2006 - 12:28pm.First off, "Rapturism", as understood via things like the "Left Behind" novels, is primarily an American phenomenon, not a primarily Christian one. To be more specific, most of the rest of Christendom generally believes (as does most of the rest of the world, methinks) that Americans are stark raving batshit crazy.
Rapturists gather their views primarily from a so-called "literal" reading of the book of Revelations. But their reading of this book is hardly literal; it is laced with superimposed superstitions and conspiracy theories (think the "Bible Code"). Frankly, "literalists" are usually at odds with sound reason, and while they "literally" interpret particular passages of the Bible, they frequently stretch and distort other passages. “Literalism” generally known as biblical inerrancy, is fraught with its own problems (the discovery of dinosaur bones being the least of the difficulties).
" Lastly, you aren’t
Submitted by Rob Richards on Sun, 09/03/2006 - 2:49pm.Also, when I said that I didn't roll with heavily religious people, my tongue was planted firmly in my cheek. Still, I wouldn't classify you or Selena as "heavily" religious. My ex step-grandfather, the true believer in Bush and Jesus, was heavily religious. Before my grandmother died, while she was sick, he would say to me things like,"Your grandmother's one wish is that you get saved before she dies." After she died, he once said to me, "Your grandmother would be really disappointed in you if she were here, and saw the way you live your life." This after I was working for Bread and Roses. That would be my definition of heavily religious, you and Selena just don't fit that. You ain't heavy.
I really, really enjoyed your response, Phil. Up until the end when you got personal, I stopped really caring at the end of the third to last paragraph. I don't claim to "be" any religion or philosophy, I highly sympathize with Buddhism and Taoism, but I choose not to constrain myself with labels. As far as God is concerned, I don't believe. I see that, throughout time, many "gods" have come and gone, and a part of me can't accept that this one or that one is God-for real this time. I assume that one day, who knows when, something will happen and people will begin to drift away and something else will take it's place.
I don't like having these conversations sometimes because of how intensely personal it is. We are at an immediate disadvantage from the jump because one of us believes in god and the other doesn't. I think this, a lot of times, prevents us from having a reasonable conversation. Let's try to embrace our diversity and appreciate the wisdom we bring to one another.
I agree completely with your ideas about innerency. I also think that it's probably true that religion does not literally, or actively, cause the dangerous consumerist culture that we live in here. What I said was that it "may" have an effect, I made no assertions, because I'm not sure. It seems a logical deduction that if, and this is putting it very simply, people don't care about the future, then they wouldn't care about the present. I want to explore that idea a little bit, because it makes sense to me. So, I don't think preachers are saying "go out and buy!", and people are running out and buying, I think, if it's true that there is a connection between rapturism and consumerism, that it's more deeply rooted in peoples psyche. I understand you don't feel this way, and I'm glad. 40% of the people in our country are willing to tell a stranger that they believe Jesus will return and judge them in their lifetime. That's the reality. If more people thought like you, we would likely have an easier time. However, I'm not concerned with how things should be, I'm concerned with how things are. If we are, the shoulds will work themselves out.
Okay, I apologize for the
Submitted by Phil Owen on Sun, 09/03/2006 - 4:19pm.I've been getting pretty frustrated with what occurs to me as a perniciously persistent (flawed) logic that goes: Rapturists are hurting America, rapturists are Christians, therefore Christians are hurting America.
A similar vein of thought is to call right-wing Christians "heavily religious", as though blind, illogical, and irrational beliefs somehow make a person more religious than others. In my eyes, it's folks like Archbishop Oscar Romero, Martin Luther King Jr, Dorothy Day and Peter Maurin, Caezar Chavez, and the litany of saints who count as heavily religious. The ones who make heavy sacrifices out of faith.
However, I may have misinterpreted your use of the word "heavy"... it sounds as though you were actually not using it as a synonym for "devout" but rather in the slang use of "whoa, that's heavy". If that's the case, I thank you for saying I'm not "heavy", though I think my last post may have unfortuately disproven that assertion.
I'm very sorry about the hurtful words your ex-stepgrandfather used with you. I'm certainly not disappointed in the way you live, nor do I believe that God is disappointed. You have a lot to be proud of.
Back to the Apocalypse: I've spent a bit of time reading apocryphal (non-canonized) New Testament apocalyptic literature, out of curiousity. There's actually quite a bit of it out there. In one book, Peter describes the beauty of heaven and the horrors of hell, and then actually teaches that God will take the people out of hell and into heaven who are prayed for by the faithful. That one never made it into the canons, but Revelations did.
It's funny, because the ecumenical councils (such as the Nicene council) were highly suspicious of apocalyptic literature, as well as of the Gospel of John. They very hesitantly agreed to add Revelations to the canons, and to accept the views of the Johannine community as mainstream enough to avoid schism. More than a millenium later, a very powerful minority of American Christians are using the book of Revelations, almost exclusively, to promote some pretty ugly stuff. Recall that the early Christians were just about unanimously pacifist, and now one of the consequences of a merely dogmatic decision they made is that some Christians hope to see massive bloodshed in the Middle East. Bizarre.
I don't believe that religion contributes to consumerism. This is actually one point that both liberal and conservative Christians agree on: that consumersim hurts faith. We live in an economic world, however, that preaches consumerism so pervasively that only the most strong willed people escape it. And I don't think they would claim to have escaped it either... they would probably describe non-consumerism the way that recovering alcoholics describe recovery or that pacifists describe non-violence: as a continuous struggle.
It may be possible that the specific belief in an immanent rapture could lead to an increase in consumerism. I mean to say, I think you've got something on that point. I think this highlights, however, a horrible reality that lurks beneath the surface of our society. If I thought the world were going to end tomorrow, I'd be getting in touch with all my relatives and friends to make amends before we all die, not going out and eating as much as I can. Our American culture encourages us to forget what is important in life, and to embrace that which is harmful. I imagine that this is probably a great fear for Rapturist preachers: that if they do too good a job of convincing their followers of the immanence of the Apocalypse, their followers will begin to do awful things. James Watts, who served as Secretary of the Interior under Reagan, apparently once said (in front of Congress!) that protecting the environment wasn't important. "after the last tree is felled, Christ will come back," he testified. (Quote from Common Dreams) This runs a shiver down my spine.
In spite of their frightening political power, Rapturists are still a minority, almost as small a minority, in fact, as people who approve of Bush's performance as president. But they are growing, the megachurches are growing, at a far faster rate than that of the mainstream churches. This suggests to me that mainstream, or "progressive", Christianity is overdue for a revival.
One last thing: I'd be interested to know more about the diversity of views among people who believe that the Rapture is just around the corner. I do know a couple of folks who believe that the Rapture will come, and who might answer "within the next fifty years" if a poll came their way, but who do not take a "literal" interpretation of Revelations and who are politically progressive. There was even a preacher in Seattle who suggested that Bush is the anti-christ. There is a definate "Rapturist" trend, captured by the Left Behind books, that is absolutist and very far right-wing. But I don't know that everyone who answers "yes" to the question, "Do you believe the apocalypse will happen in your lifetime?" is necessarily a part of this trend. I'd be interested to see a poll referencing political views to apocalyptic beliefs. I dunno, there's still a lot to be explored.
My favorite lately, If you
Submitted by Norm on Sun, 09/03/2006 - 6:08pm.Thanks for posting this, Rob.
Submitted by jlw on Sat, 09/02/2006 - 8:46pm.Perhaps we should have a few
Submitted by Rob Richards on Sun, 09/03/2006 - 10:49am.We should!
Submitted by jlw on Sun, 09/03/2006 - 9:43pm.I am very interested in the
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Sun, 09/03/2006 - 11:11pm.I am very interested in the idea the frighteningly widespread belief that we are living in the "end times,"
Seriously, though. Isn't this what Al Gore is preaching, too?
I'm not trying to make an easy joke, I'm being honest. Aren't most people today preaching about the end of the world, both secular and religious?
I think. I think the
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 09/04/2006 - 1:09am.Can you expand on your idea a little bit? If you could provide diverse examples of this, then I would understand better what you're getting at.
Yes, TFI, Al Gore is "preaching" about his own kind of end times
Submitted by jlw on Mon, 09/04/2006 - 9:11am.To digress a bit, does anyone happen to know if Dick Cheney has evangelical beliefs?
To Every End,
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 09/04/2006 - 9:16am.May we wake up after the end to find a better world waiting.
Aldo Leopold: "We abuse land because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us. When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect."