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Submitted by Sarah on Wed, 02/21/2007 - 4:09pm.
Go read what Mike wrote in a comment thread: Normies:
» I think it's wise, prudent, compassionate to accept that everyone's experience of the world cannot be judged and understood through the prism of another single person's experience. |
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That truly was a good post
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 02/21/2007 - 5:47pm.Good post
Submitted by Sarah on Thu, 02/22/2007 - 8:37pm.I'm closing this thread now as I slowly tidy things up towards the vacation I'll be taking soon. Conversation can of course continue elsewhere.
Well,
Submitted by OlyCop on Thu, 02/22/2007 - 2:22am.I think Mike said the same thing(s) that Rob and Phil have said. Nothing really new or particularly profound.
I would like to know where the accoutability is for people that are receiving the resources. Some here seem to think it's ok to just give, give, give, without having some controls on the giving. Not all homeless are equal in their homelessness or their "ability" to get out of the situation.
So, no we shouldn't use a prism, we should use a microscope.
There "needs" to be discernment on the distribution of the services. I would hope that Rob and Phil are doing this.
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." (emphasis added) ~~ Mahatma Gandhi
Bread and Roses is an
Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 02/22/2007 - 3:45am.I'm quite honestly more concerned with there being no accountablity for those providing services to those they are serving. That's what's missing in the equation.
“One man scorned and covered with scars still strove with his last ounce of courage to reach the unreachable stars; and the world was better for this.
I think you are right. My
Submitted by Mike on Thu, 02/22/2007 - 3:11pm.I think the "hey, I made it out of homelessness or adversity, why can't you?" approach that you and Merwyn have expressed is appealing, but deeply flawed. In the final analysis this approach simply fails to even recognize the multitude of reasons why a person might become homeless or mired in catastrophic poverty. In that sense, to keep pushing the "get a job" bootstrap mentality, as a general solution to homelessness and catastrophic poverty is mean spirited.
The get a job - bootstrap approach is simply one of the avenues that will work for a certain number of people. Good for them. That was a good outcome, but it probably means those folks had certain skills, abilities, social and biological history that others do not have.
For example, with poorly controlled eplileptics who have seizures, have difficulty holding jobs, can't prove to the social service agencies - like Social Security or SSI staff - that they are truly disabled, should we just slap them around a bit? Teach them to shake off the brainstorms and get a job like the rest of us? Like normal people like you and Merwyn? Epileptics are such slackers, you follow? Is that a sensible approach? Can you tell by walking by if a person at a homeless camp is epileptic? Or has been head-injured working somewhere a few years ago?
I may not have always been
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 02/22/2007 - 4:48pm.In one of his responses Rob denied that even able-bodied, able-minded people had no reason not to try to find work. That's what I'm not in agreement with.
au contraire
Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 02/22/2007 - 10:03am.“One man scorned and covered with scars still strove with his last ounce of courage to reach the unreachable stars; and the world was better for this.
Merwyn:The thing is,
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 02/22/2007 - 10:20am.Rob:That's just simply not true, Merwyn. Please come down to the Bread and Roses Advocacy Center and volunteer some time, meet some people. We've had people come in and have their perceptions shattered very quickly. Well, maybe that's the kool-aid.
Once you eliminate the barriers of addiction or medical conditions then I fail to see why not. I'm not trying to argue that day labor offers job security or a liveable wage but it's a starting point. I'm where I'm at with a GED and not enough college credits to bother mentioning. I started with little, almost insignificant, steps.
And I'm still sweating blood over finances. I'm doing a somewhat decent job saving what I can, not overspending, and attempting some sort of financial planning for the future, but right now if, say, my transmission went out I'm screwed.
In other words it's not Easy Street, I'm nobody's boss, like every other worker I feel I'm worth more than I'm getting, but that's life. I'll eventually be even higher up the ladder, but I had to first climb onto that lowermost rung.
Where or which service providers
Submitted by OlyCop on Wed, 02/21/2007 - 8:13pm.are dropping the ball?
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." (emphasis added) ~~ Mahatma Gandhi
Which service providers? Maybe it's the design of the
Submitted by Mike on Thu, 02/22/2007 - 2:51pm.Chatting on the street with recipients/beneficiaries of services to homeless suggests that Salvation Army is not well thought of or respected. They are empowered however and might be difficult to modifiy or replace.
I think the record of DSHS speaks for itself. Despite efforts by many good employees, the agency culture is not one that generally supports recipients and truly helps families overcome adversity and move out of catastrophic poverty.
I see a lot of entrenched interests in social service agencies - the entitlements really seem to accrue to employees of the agencies - a power and stability or them and us mentality is not uncommon. For these reasons a coop format such as the PPU with an interest in consensus or democratic process has great appeal to me.