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Submitted by Sarah on Mon, 10/02/2006 - 12:56pm.
Another school shooting in the news.

And we are still at war.

Sometimes people decry the supposed apathy of others when it comes to violence and war. Apathy surely is part of the story but not all. Many if not most of us are in outright shock.

We don't give ourselves or each other or other countries a break. Much less time to debrief and heal and develop some other way to exist.

Those of us who are anti-war, it is important that we remember to not lash out at each other, or anyone. Our world is indeed frustrating. But no one person knows it all, has all the answers. The person standing next to you looking spaced out might not be a "stupid sheep" or apathetic. They might very well be in absolute shock, still functioning, still walking and talking, possibly not even aware that they are in shock.

A friend once told me that she would welcome a chance to have PTSD, because it includes that word "post" and the opportunity to be "post" anything would be a luxury for her. As a member of a target group she isn't able to ever fully be done, over, recovered, safe.

Numbness and denial can all be part of response to trauma. I think our entire country is in shock and that our country unfortunately is also a large part of the global problem.

I know this is just a fanciful dream, but I wish we humans could take some time out from the daily grind of violence and war. A full day free would be a great start.
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 "I know this is just a

 "I know this is just a fanciful dream, but I wish we humans could take some time out from the daily grind of violence and war. A full day free would be a great start."

It would be lovely.

"To me, it's a good idea to always carry two sacks of something when you walk around. That way, if anybody says, "Hey, can you give me a hand?" you can say, "Sorry, got these sacks.""

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Violence

Some would say that it's manifest destiny. But I would disagree. This violence is no more a destiny than an individual's decision to brush his teeth twice daily.

The violence is the result of a plutocratic system, wherein the will of men becomes dominated by the will to increase their capital. It goes beyond reason to the point of causing great and terrible death and destruction.

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Philosophical moodswings

I'm having philosophical moodswings, I'm temporarily now leaning towards the theory that we humans just do this. Violence is in our collective genetics or some such.

Blech.
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As a born-again I think we

As a born-again I think we are created, but I hope we can evolve.  I think some folks manage it.  More have to make the step, lay down their weapons.  (they can still bear them constitutionally, just lay them down.)
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genetic altruism

Robert Trivers' theories can make a pretty good argument for those with an altruistic bent getting together and procreating as much as possible.   Otherwise, laying down weapons (or not using any available tools as a weapon) is a pretty good example of the prisoner's dilemma.

"If you are a dreamer, come in. If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, a hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer. If you're a pretender, come sit by my fire, for we have some flax-golden tales to spin. Come in! Come in!"
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I understand the dynamics of

I understand the dynamics of game theory, nash equilibrium etc, but I am thinking of the altruistic cultural development model where how I live might be more important than whether I live.  Read or listen to MLK Jr's speech the night before he was killed for some insight into the realm I am thinking about.

Here are the last few lines: 

Now, it doesn't matter, now. It really doesn't matter what happens now. I left Atlanta this morning, and as we got started on the plane, there were six of us. The pilot said over the public address system, "We are sorry for the delay, but we have Dr. Martin Luther King on the plane. And to be sure that all of the bags were checked, and to be sure that nothing would be wrong with on the plane, we had to check out everything carefully. And we've had the plane protected and guarded all night."

And then I got into Memphis. And some began to say the threats, or talk about the threats that were out. What would happen to me from some of our sick white brothers?

Well, I don't know what will happen now. We've got some difficult days ahead. But it really doesn't matter with me now,  because I've been to the mountaintop.

And I don't mind.

Like anybody, I would like to live a long life. Longevity has its place. But I'm not concerned about that now. I just want to do God's will. And He's allowed me to go up to the mountain. And I've looked over. And I've seen the Promised Land. I may not get there with you. But I want you to know tonight, that we, as a people, will get to the promised land!

And so I'm happy, tonight. I'm not worried about anything. I'm not fearing any man! Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord!!



Say Amen, somebody.

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see link

"but I am thinking of the altruistic cultural development model where how I live might be more important than whether I live."

That's precisely why I posted the link to Robert Trivers.  From an evolutionary standpoint the altruistic model requires real world practicality; Trivers (and his intellectual descendants) attempt to prove just such a thing.

If you are a dreamer, come in. If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, a hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer. If you're a pretender, come sit by my fire, for we have some flax-golden tales to spin. Come in! Come in!"
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I missed your point because

I missed your point because I was unfamiliar with Trivers.  Took a short look and Trivers is right on.  Thanks for helping me understand your post and become a little less unfamiliar with Trivers.
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good people

Yeah man; as soon as I saw your belief that humans could evolve away from violence Trivers came to mind.  OlyBlog seems to be this great real world community forum for dialogue between people pushing toward a more altruistic norm.  I'm down with the actions toward your vision (even if I believe in the right to bear arms).

"If you are a dreamer, come in. If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, a hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer. If you're a pretender, come sit by my fire, for we have some flax-golden tales to spin. Come in! Come in!"
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Say Amen

Amen
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Amen and right on.

Amen and right on.
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I like your post Mike.

I like your post Mike.
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my two assumptions

I have come to two fundamental assumptions about the human condition:  1) people will socially assemble (improve chances of survival, procreate, battle lonliness) 2) there will be misunderstandings (language making it impossible to fully convey individual experience).

It seems that as long as misunderstandings exist (intentional or otherwise) violence is a strong possibility for an end result, as the immediacy of its solution is a great temptation.  Oddly, it seems to me that the greater our reliance on our neighbors' expertise, the less likely we are to commit violence against them.  So maybe that makes an argument for extreme specialization.  Down with the jack-of-all-trades!

"If you are a dreamer, come in. If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, a hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer. If you're a pretender, come sit by my fire, for we have some flax-golden tales to spin. Come in! Come in!"
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We have to start with the

We have to start with the idea of a peaceful world, a world where conflict could and would be handled in a peaceful way, no coercion, no force. 

I don't buy the idea that because things have always been a certain way that change is not possible.  Change is possible, it may even be essential and necessary.  It all starts with a thought, then we breathe life into it when we express it, then we live it. That's not a zero sum game, it's a transcendent experience.

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and here's misunderstanding

"We have to start with the idea of a peaceful world, a world where conflict could and would be handled in a peaceful way, no coercion, no force."

You're saying this in a visionary sense, correct?  Otherwise, I think we have to start with what we've got.  In that light then your transcendent model has to out succeed other models in order to be human existence.  Unless, of course, you consider it human destiny.  As I don't partake in religious faith I don't buy a destiny based model so I fall back on the tried and true method of out breeding the competition (practiced by all "successful" theologies).

"I don't buy the idea that because things have always been a certain way that change is not possible.  Change is possible, it may even be essential and necessary."

I agree, lest the human experiment come to a crashing halt (barring unforseen natural extinction disasters, of course).  There is a point in the doctrine of change that I do get caught up in with my fellow liberals on a regular basis, though, and that's that I firmly believe that change requires a recognition of and deference to what preceeded it.  This is why I think outrage over Abu Gharib, Guantanimo, Bagram and their like is wasted energy.  We should know by now that something like this would happen.  I think before a people ever decide to war they should be faced with the evidence of past war attrocities knowing that it's a given that future attrocities will occur when people are placed in positions of violence.  I long for the day when pre-war dialogue involves non-stop propaganda showing Vietnam era attrocities, photos from Guantanamo,  Hiroshima shadows, etc., etc., etc.  I think if people are actually faced with the results of violence, instead of trying to clean it up, then your transendence on a social scale may come much more quickly.  I guess my point is that change never starts with a thought in a vacuum, change starts with everything else that came before.

"If you are a dreamer, come in. If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, a hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer. If you're a pretender, come sit by my fire, for we have some flax-golden tales to spin. Come in! Come in!"
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Make seeing the results of violence a consequence

I'm not able to follow this great conversation as well as I'd like, sometimes my ability to understand what I read online (on monitor) is next to zero, but my mind can latch on to that idea of facing the results of violence.

I don't want the flag draped coffins of our soldiers hidden from view. Somewhat along this theme also, I want the Bush twins serving in Iraq.
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Yes to the visionary sense,

Yes to the visionary sense, with the wrinkle that from a narrative-constructionist pov, we create the world through our internal and external narrative, maybe third-way type of thinking. 

Lots of human behavior changes over time through this kind of process. For example - in Freud's time, (and before, leading up to Freud's analysis/deconstruction of hysteria) hysteria was apparently a common human neurosis.  It is much less common today in the way that it existed in that earlier time.  Through analysis and dialogue, classic hysteria became untenable. 

Luckily, humans were able to launch into depressive and anxious states as hysteria fell out of favor, so there is no lack of neurotic options for us all.  So, maybe through dialogue and cultural evolutionary dialogue, we could create a world where depression and anxiety are less tenable, and maybe that could start with leaving off with the starting with the state of the world as we have it, and instead begin with the state of the world, the state of being, that we believe in. 

The Robert Kennedy quote comes to mind - "some men see things as they are and say why?  I dream of things that never were and say why not?" 

My take on all this is founded in something deeper than simple pollyanna'ism - but in the work of people like Maturana, Bateson, Meade, Jung and others.  Guess I will add Trivers to that list.
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oooo

"Through analysis and dialogue, classic hysteria became untenable."

That's hilarious.

"Luckily, humans were able to launch into depressive and anxious states as hysteria fell out of favor, so there is no lack of neurotic options for us all."

I about spit coffee when I read that.  So true...so true...

"So, maybe through dialogue and cultural evolutionary dialogue, we could create a world where depression and anxiety are less tenable..."

I'm pro no anxiety, but if we lose the depression I'll be sad.  It goes so nicely with the Pacific NW winter.  But I think you're right about moving toward the "why not" spectrum of Robert Kennedy, and I think the internet may allow we dreamers to more readily find each other.   What is Meade all about?

"If you are a dreamer, come in. If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, a hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer. If you're a pretender, come sit by my fire, for we have some flax-golden tales to spin. Come in! Come in!"
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Hysteria IS real. Check this

Hysteria IS real. Check this out.
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Jenna and Barbara Bush, Troopers in Iraq

I don't like to use the N word, so I won't. I will say this though: I cannot see Mr. Bush's twin daughters serving in Iraq under any circumstance.

Prove me wrong 'commander in chief.'

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Maybe Not

You know, I feel bad about wishing Mr. Bush's daughters into combat in Iraq. I don't wish that on anyone. And I don't think we need to beat up on his daughters just because he has done so much wrong...

What I would like to see is Mr. Bush, with shovel in hand, digging the ditches in Iraq, being a uniter and not a divider - taking the health and well-being of Iraqis into his own hands, and doing what he can to repair the infrastructure that has been damaged, and gone neglected for far too long, as a result of this invasion/occupation.

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I hear ya

I do hear you on this, good point. Though I also want our government authorities who are pro-war to have some experience themselves, including their children serving overseas. Yet at the same time, in my more peaceful moments, I don't want anyone harmed.

Mr. Bush, shovel in hand, excellent idea.
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