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Submitted by The Fire Inside on Tue, 10/24/2006 - 1:31pm.
And this is the direction everyone is chomping at the bit to go? One reader quote: What's the problem? Essentially it is just clinical waste. From the article we learn that the hospital cannot "afford to the dignified disposal at a local crematorium of fetuses from unwanted pregnancies." And it's not just the "pro-lifers" who find something very disturbing about this. The revelation sparked anger and distress among church leaders and pro-life groups, as well as women whose pregnancies were terminated at the hospital. So why is this happening? A combination of the crematorium raising their prices and - get this - the hospital isn't funded properly! And this is the country which many point to when saying they're "getting it done" with socialized medicine.
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so we know the slant of this article, very cute
Submitted by Crenshaw Sepulveda on Tue, 10/24/2006 - 2:47pm."I would make it impossible for the covetous and avaricious to utterly impoverish the poor. The rich can take care of themselves."
^@^
"Falsehood is invariably the child of fear in one form..."
Submitted by bubbaz (not verified) on Tue, 10/24/2006 - 3:08pm.“Falsehood is invariably the child of fear in one form or another”
Aleister Crowley
"I don't want every break in the world. I just want justice..." Lenny Bruce
At least you went the
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Tue, 10/24/2006 - 3:36pm.At least you went the direction I was thinking.
Do you remember the "South Park" where Cartman is selling fetuses on the black market? A funny episode and one which was intended to mock the idea that fetuses are nothing more than a tendon or bone.
I suppose one can wish to have a "dignified" ceremony for these foetuses, but what is really the point.
There is no point. My assumption, however, is that the reason a "dignified" ceremony is offered would be due to women who struggle with the decision to have an abortion.
Now that I've had time to think about the article some more, I hope they continue to burn the fetuses with the rest of the medical waste. If we're to be serious about a fetus being on the same level as a tendon, bone, or any other waste a hospital would deem necessary to incinerate (such as garbage), let's go all the way.
Eric Cartman
Submitted by bubbaz (not verified) on Tue, 10/24/2006 - 3:53pm.Eric Cartman speaks about this sensitive (t) issue...
"I don't want every break in the world. I just want justice..." Lenny Bruce
And the fact you say that will such coldness
Submitted by OlyCop on Tue, 10/24/2006 - 4:00pm."I suspect that US clinics do no different in disposing of foetuses."
Says a lot about the pro-choice movement
Heck, most families would even bury their still born puppies.
"The strongest reason to retain the right to keep and bear arms is to protect against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson.
TFI was making reference to "socialized medicine"
Submitted by Crenshaw Sepulveda on Tue, 10/24/2006 - 4:19pm."I would make it impossible for the covetous and avaricious to utterly impoverish the poor. The rich can take care of themselves."
^@^
Crenshaw, you have to be one
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 10/24/2006 - 5:40pm."where's the outrage?"
Submitted by Crenshaw Sepulveda on Tue, 10/24/2006 - 10:11pm.So when I see crap posted on OlyBlog and I call it crap doesn't mean I'm uncaring. It doesn't mean I have an attitude that is capable of amazing you. What it means is that you have to resort to attacking my humanity when you don't have a reasonable argugment to put forward. If you post crap, expect it to be called crap. Posting the desperate propaganda of Fox news or the inflamitory propaganda of the pro-life lobby does little to create reasoned discussion but it does plenty to show how little people have to work with in propping up the Bush administration.
"I would make it impossible for the covetous and avaricious to utterly impoverish the poor. The rich can take care of themselves."
^@^
So former patients at the
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 5:40am.So former patients at the hospital who also are uncomfortable with feti being disposed of with the other trash are simply part of the "pro-life lobby?"
Do you think polling would reveal the general public to not care? I'm more inclined to think that if people were aware a fetus was being tossed into the trash heap and burned with other "medical waste," you might find some who have even had abortions to find the process unsettling.
Also, the reason I was attacking socialized medicine was not that it would lead to this but rather it cannot fund it in the first place. Regardless of whether you think it's stupid to "dignify" the incineration of a fetus or not, the fact of the matter is that socialized medicine is not able to fund a hospital program. Judging by the amount of pounds involved in their cutbacks, my assumption is that there is much more than feti waste programs being scaled back.
Also, in regard to the "crap" about the US soldiers: every media outlet I viewed described the bodies as being "mutilated." This from China Daily:
Obviously the Fox editorial went into much more detail, but if one is to believe that the outlet and administration are so closely alligned, why would it be unreasonable for Fox to receive more specific information regarding the extent of the "mutilation?"
It's not your point that I
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 10:29am.My spouse had a spontaneous
Submitted by Mike on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 6:00am.They were all very kind. Nobody asked if we wanted the sit with the bucket of medical waste for a little while. Nobody asked if we wanted the medical waste in an urn or coffee can to take home with us.
This whole thing is a political wedge issue used by folks who will stoop to anything to get a political edge. Olycop and I are both easily manipulated on this issue. I know when folks are trying to manipulate me and I examine their motives. I don't like to be manipulated. It takes a little perception and intelligence to see through the whole political charade. None of the medical waste disposal process has been in the hands of the pro-choice movement.
It's not about the pro-choice movement and it's shameless, cruel, and manipulative to go there. But that's what this thread is all about.
My guess is that TFI has no first hand experience regarding pregnancy, abortion of any kind, or the tragic ends of pregnancies and children. I have been through one of each and they are both rough. It's shameless to use these highly personal decisions, losses for political ends.
Thank you, Mike...
Submitted by Rick on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 6:20am....for providing some much needed perspective.
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
Bull
Submitted by OlyCop on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 8:03am."None of the medical waste disposal process has been in the hands of the pro-choice movement."
The pro-choice movement's hands are stained with the blood of those unborn children.
The liberal perspective is usually in conflict with itself and illogical.
"The strongest reason to retain the right to keep and bear arms is to protect against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson.
Boots on
Submitted by Sarah on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 5:48pm.There is cruelty a'plenty on all sides (there are more than two).
Oh I see crap
Submitted by OlyCop on Tue, 10/24/2006 - 4:34pm.Which is the whole pro-choice argument.
Socialized medicine is a failure in the UK, and in Canada. I suspect it's a failure everywhere, but I don't know that to be a fact. If we ever get socialized medicine here the quality of care will go down, but yes everyone will have SOME crummy medical care.
I would love to see medical care costs go down. Heck, I'm on the hook in retirement for over $1000.00 a month for medical insurance. So yeah, if I could keep all or part of that grand, I'm for it. But I don't want a decrease in quality.
"The strongest reason to retain the right to keep and bear arms is to protect against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson.
AARRGG!
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 10/24/2006 - 8:56pm.You don't know it to be a fact because IT ISN'T A FACT! Do some research, please. Most of the countries with single payer systems have higher life expectancies and pay less for it than we do -- by a considerable margin.
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
Breathe Rick, breathe. Think
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 10/24/2006 - 9:01pm.Thanks.
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 10/24/2006 - 9:07pm.I feel better now.
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
Right wing politics is a
Submitted by Mike on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 6:06am.Left wing politics, if
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 1:42pm.We have a great opportunity here to really learn and grow from one another, let's not get hung up on stereotypes or on the little points in which we disagree. Instead, let's always look for common ground first, and build from there.
Cheers..
Submitted by bubbaz (not verified) on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 2:22pm."I don't want every break in the world. I just want justice..." Lenny Bruce
I represesent Mike here. Not
Submitted by Mike on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 5:38pm.An argument without any facts is a foolish argument. An argument with selected facts taken out of context or magnified beyond their true significance is foolishness or manipulation.
I live in a time when our first amendment right to assemble has been abridged. I live in a time when our fourth amendment right to be protected from unreasonable search and seizure has been set aside. I live in a time where habeas corpus has been set aside and in a time when our country has legalized torture. I am in despair and working every available minute to rouse the rabble to protect our collective freedom. I plead and pray every chance I get to reduce support for genocide and war.
And I run into people here whose argument against mine is largely based on repeating over and over again that they believe that total war is actually sensible. Never mind the Geneva Conventions. Don't bother to analyze how we came to have these conventions and why they exist to constrain total war. We Americans are pissed off and ought to be able to wage total war.
In the "burning babies" thread we get this:
Do you find that to be fact-laden post full of persuasive first-hand experience? You see any powerful analysis of a complex subject there?
How about this one:
Does that advance the discussion or help us reach consensus?
Let's look at this one:
I must have missed the opening to reach consensus in that post.
I could go on and on, but my point is that I have little interest in reaching consensus with folks who are willing to give up all of their bill of rights protections except their second amendment right to own guns.
If you, Rob, wish to champion their causes, please feel free to help them out by bringing back data, facts, evidence that will support their argument. I can be swayed by facts and cogent analysis. Just saying over and over again, well I just believe something so strongly that it must be true can be a good personal mantra, but it comes up a little short in a vigorous debate of ideas.
Now, I would be a little more kindly disposed toward fools with these views and intellectual capacity if they were not in charge of this country and killing hundreds of thousands of people on the planet with their convictions.
Mr. Magoo is entertaining when he is walking on the sidewalk and patting the fire hydrants on the head and talking with them. Mr. Magoo is not entertaining when he is driving the bus you happen to be sitting in.
Obviously you need to read a
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 5:48pm.Obviously you need to read a little deeper Mike. My comment was to simply point out that I found his post to be distasteful. I feel that his post not only did not advance the discussion but was put out to get a reaction out of some people. How anyone could read that and not find that offensive amazes me. Everyone jumps TFI for typing something similar but Crenshaw's golden, god forbid anyone calls crenshaw on going over the line.
Do you want to be an ass on this forum? say things specifically to get a reaction or hurt people? How does that advance the conversation? How about all of the times you resort to name-calling or belittleing people? A few of your posts are caustic mike. I've been on the receiving end of some of them. I'm not sure what your problem is but you frequently don't come off as a very nice person.
I am a very caustic
Submitted by Mike on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 7:00pm.Name-calling? Go through and show me. I love the stooges and I will bring them up from time to time. I like Mr. Magoo, but I don't let him drive.
Be-littling? I subscribe to the Eleanor Roosevelt school on that one: "nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission." I also subscribe to the Harry Truman sentiment - that I never did give them hell, I just told them the truth, and they thought it was hell. And finally, though I am willing to converse back and forth with you on occasion, what you think of me is really none of my business.
As to what is bothering me? Gosh, my tax dollars are killing lots of people again for no good reason. That really pisses me off. I haven't learned how to shrug that one off. I am not sure I am supposed to.
Great, so now you are
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 7:07pm.Great, so now you are validating being a jerk? Very nice. Many of us don't like the way our tax dollars are spent, we still suck it up and try to be civil. You can quote whoever you want, make it sound cute, cover it with a little bit of sarcasm, but it is what it is Mike. Just think about how hard you want to poke before you go poking, not everyone listens to Mrs. Roosevelt.
Let's see. Let's post a
Submitted by Mike on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 7:06pm.How about:
This advances the discussion, right? I just missed the opening here to move the abortion issue toward some smiley-face outcome that you can imagine? Tell me about how that was going to look?
shuuuuuuuunnnnnnn!
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 11:20pm.CS and Rick
Submitted by OlyCop on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 7:37am.CS,
Just because there aren't numerous resources saying the same thing, and countless study's etc. on a topic doesn't mean it isn't true. Like the Fox report that still has you so incensed. Fox reported that the 2 American soldiers were mutilated and tortured. Because no other broadcast agency said anything like that, it is false in your mind. I don't think you can dismiss it. (using your logic, the CNN broadcast that was done showing an American GI being killed in combat must not have happened because CNN is the only one that chose to air it) Clearly Fox is more friendly with the military than say NBC, ABC, CNN, MSNBC, etc. And it would be likely they would feel more comfortable with sharing with Fox. I don't think Fox should have reported the details, but just because they did doesn't mean it's not true. Further, I have seen things and been a party to things in the military that the general public never learned of. Things that would make some gasp. They were classified then and likely still are. But if I told you about them, you would likely call it crap. But it doesn't change the fact it happened. I agree more info is better, but less info doesn't mean false.
Rick,
As you know I don't like socialism. I like capitalism. I have seen it be a very good thing even for the very poor. But for some, capitalism is very ruthless too. Secondly, I don't like taxes, and I hate paying for the abuse of many social programs. The people that really need it, not just qualify for it, I'm in support of. But the ones that really need it are few compared to the number that are using these social programs all carried on my back. I see the same thing with socialized anything. And why this group that wants less government involvement in your life, want more government involvement in your life, just weird.
There are all kinds of info on Canada's failed health care system. But even more so the people tell the story best. We have friends that moved to Alberta. She was a Canadian, they got married, had some kids and moved back to Canada. They think the health care system sucks up there. Yeah, it's cheap, but access is poor. Also a motorcycle club that is in a bigger coalition of clubs in the US is out of B.C. Most of the guys in that club have mostly negative things to say about the health care system in Canada.
Yes, you can find those that say the Canada and UK systems are good systems. But there are those that say its crappy. If it was all that good you shouldn't have the negative comments at all. Below are some excerpts from articles on the net talking about the UK system.
For example, in the UK, which provides a socialized medical system, an antibiotic-resistant "superbug" (MSRA) runs rampant in state-run hospitals, but not in private ones. "One in ten patients becomes infected when they are admitted to an NHS hospital, resulting in at least 5,000 deaths a year."[1]
Another group recently discovered that medical malpractice in state-sponsored hospitals is the fourth-highest cause of death in the UK. "One in ten patients admitted to NHS hospitals will fall victim to medical errors, which have now become Britain's fourth-biggest killer. Medical accidents and errors contribute to the deaths of 72,000 people a year, and they are directly blamed for 40,000. They also cost the NHS £2 billion in increased hospital stays alone."[2]
Worse, studies also show the number of errors reported (the numbers I just cited), are just the tip of the iceberg, since state-run hospitals are shown to cover up many more than they report, and some studies estimate the total number may be four more or even higher. (Poor accountability is a classic problem in governments-run endeavors.)
The research confirms our experience of an alarming rate of errors occurring in our NHS. The figures do not even include errors occurring in primary care, such as in GPs’ surgeries, and are likely to be significantly less than the actual rate as they are only based on reported errors....
The figures do not include any hospital-acquired infections or complications of childbirth, and almost 10 per cent of the trusts surveyed claimed an unlikely error rate of zero. The article cites an example where only 1 in 3.2 errors were estimated to be reported. If so, the UK's state-run medical system kills 72k x 3.2 + 5k people. That means, looking at only two factors, the UK's socialized medical system kills roughly 236,000 people each year!
I don't know what the answer is for fixing our health care system. But having the government directly involved in the process is a receipe for a mess.
"The strongest reason to retain the right to keep and bear arms is to protect against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson.
OK.
Submitted by Rick on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 8:19am.We had this conversation already, and I still hold that a single payer plan is not "socialism". I wonder where you got your references, because "if you want to know the truth about the emperor's clothes, don't ask the tailors."
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
Yes, anecdotes are great.
Submitted by Mike on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 6:05pm.But for the folks who anecdotes unsatisfying, how about some basic stats to see how Canada and the US compare. Infant mortality is a common benchmark, let's look and see how we are doing with some stats instead of competing anecdotes, shall we? Here's an article about infant mortality in the US. It says we are better than Latvia here, so that's something. Canada is ahead of us. The power of capitalism in health care has managed to keep us ahead of Latvia. Don't forget about Latvia.
How about maternal mortality? That's a pretty basic measure of a health care system. How are mothers faring with our free enterprise medical system? Here's an article with tables and stats and everything. Canada is beating us again, but we are ahead of Mexico, Romania, and Chile, so that's not too bad, is it?
Rob apparently us to be striving to reach consensus here, so how about we see if we can reach consensus that we would rather have a free-enterprise medical care system as long as we can stay near the benchmarks set by Latvia, Mexico, Romania and Chile? Does that help, Rob? Is there a consensus on health care that you can see on the horizon?
I realize feelings may get hurt in this discussion if we are going to insist on facts and intellectual analysis, so maybe it's best if we stick with anecdotes and just let more babies and moms die. Does that work for you, Rob?
Yes.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 11:43pm.Mike, your attitude is why there is violence in our world. Your inability and unwillingness to reach out to those who have dissenting opinions promotes duality and separatism. I get that you hold on to a lot of anger about JFK being assassinated. I get that you see parallels between Vietnam and Iraq. I get that you see the injustices in the world and don't know what to do with the resentment that they breed in you. I think most of us have similar feelings about a variety of things. I don't think this blog is the place for you to vent that in such a way, however. The people that blog here are doing so to learn about other ways of life, philosophies, opinions, whatever. This is a place where we can ask questions of one another, challenge one another to defend our points and learn from one another. No one is here to sling mud. No one is here just to provoke an argument. You say a lot about some of our more conservative friends on the blog, but you've been the most divisive of late.
I don't think the lefty intellectual bourgeois "wealth-of-knowledge" thing suits you very well. You should abandon it for a more open and reasonable tack. Maybe ask yourself: "What would Buddha do?"
WARNING!! GROSSNESS ALERT!!
Submitted by jlw on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 8:48am.A number of years ago, I had a first trimester miscarriage. I was sad, my partner was sad, and my daughter was sad, because we had all been looking forward to having a baby, and had been discussing names, etc. However, I miscarried about midway through the first trimester. (By the way, this is the point in pregnancy at which most abortions are performed.) I miscarried at home, which pretty much means that most of the time I was sitting over the toilet, in pain, crying, with blood and big bloody blobs of tissue coming out of me. This was a wanted pregnancy. We were all sad. We already had potential names for the potential life that was draining out of me into the toilet. But there was NO WAY we were going fish those blobs out of the toilet, figure out which one was the egg sac or developing placenta, and hold it or give it a proper burial or whatever. It was just a big bloody, blobby mess! There wasn't any apparent embryo -- it was all just a bunch of blood and blobs. Are there pro-lifers out there who are going to volunteer to muck through the bloody, blobby uterine contents when a woman has an abortion, to find the tiny little body of what might have developed into a human being, so they can have a funeral for it? Let 'em! My family and I were able to experience grief and lay to rest the lost potential life without paying too much attention to the actual body.
And I'm sure that my experience is hardly unique: a lot of much-desired pregnancies are lost, and flushed, with very little pomp and circumstance. I don't think the potential life of the lost embryo is disrespected this way.
I'm very sorry for your loss
Submitted by OlyCop on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 9:02am.And I do understand the pain a family goes through in this kind of situation.
Natural and spontaneous abortions are much different than man/woman made abortions.
"The strongest reason to retain the right to keep and bear arms is to protect against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson.
Yep, that was our experience
Submitted by Mike on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 5:04pm.Miscarriage
Submitted by Sarah on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 5:37pm.What Janet describes is close to my own experience during miscarriage. I eventually ended up in the hospital. My family and I found our own way to grieve.
Ok, just so my point is
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 10:34am.Ok, just so my point is clear here: This is by far the most disgusting thread I've come across ( thank you for the warning Janet ). I'm not advocating a burial for an unborn fetus. I'm not saying it's wrong to incinerate medical waste, and I also realize that a fetus ends up in this category. I just find it all to be upsetting. I've known a handful of women that have had an abortion, and ALL of them were upset for quite a long time. It has to be a traumatic experience. I just don't think it should be something that's public. I also don't agree with the paper printing shit like this. For a man to be upset by this, I imagine it must be incredibly upsetting to a woman who has ever had to face this choice...or had a miscarriage. Private, personal, none of my F$#*ing business. With that in mind, I'm out.
Best wishes,
Norm
It has to be a traumatic
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 11:54am.It has to be a traumatic experience.
I'm going to incur a lot of wrath on this one and maybe piss one or two people off.
But no, it doesn't have to be. If indeed abortion is a simple medical proceedure no different than any other surgery, there is absolutely no reason it should be a tramatic experience outside of the physical pain involved with any surgery and recovery.
From all of the discussions we've had about pregnancy and abortion I can say I have come away respecting pregnancy far, far less than before.
My opinion is shifting more and more into the direction that pregnancy should be treated no differently than a torn ligament, broken bone or disease.
I can't even imagine what...
Submitted by Rick on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 12:22pm....on earth would cause you to say such an insensitive and truly outrageous thing. I really have to ask you, TFI, to think twice, and then think again, before you say things that are so hurtful to the feelings of others.
And before you pop off about censorship or the right to free speech, just remember that free speech is not the right to say any damn thing just because you can, which I often feel is your entire motive. Stop being inflammatory just to get a rise out of people. It doesn't help people discuss things in a way that anyone enjoys.
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
on earth would cause you to
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 12:59pm.on earth would cause you to say such an insensitive and truly outrageous thing.
Because I'm honestly considering it? The point of most discussion is to allow others to see your point of view and, hopefully, even agree with it.
I don't know how one could read entire threads stating that a fetus is not a person (the word "parasite" has also been used) and not begin to shift toward the opinion (or at least consider) that feti (and pregnancy) are no different than the ligaments in my knee or nails on my fingers.
Stop being inflammatory just to get a rise out of people.
Where have I been inflammatory? With the use of "babies" versus "feti" in the headline? I really didn't put a ton of thought into it (and as I said in another thread, simply lifted it from the original article as I would any other source).
I would also counter with this in my defense, since it's obvious I'm on trial here: I think people tend to be overly emotional at times. I'm not one of those people. I can think of only one thing which could happen to less than 10 people which would shake me emotionally for a limited period of time. I've had family die before and learned to deal with it and I will have family die again. Outside of that, there's nothing worth emotionally vesting yourself in to the point that you cannot control yourself because of it.
Well, here's a wild guess...
Submitted by Rick on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 1:20pm....at what makes your post incredibly offensive: two people just posted about extremely personal and emotional events in order to help others understand the issues at stake, and you come back with a post that discounts and dismisses their emotions. If you can't see that, then you didn't think long enough about it before you posted.
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
So questioning why an
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 1:27pm.So questioning why an individual would be more emotional over the loss of a fetus moreso than the loss of a tendon is "offensive," even if the context of the discussion is abortion (which in and of itself will raise the "fetus v. baby" question)?
That's fine. I don't write the rulebook, I just play by it. I apologize for anyone I may have offended, because I definately didn't mean to.
You can ask many questions...
Submitted by Rick on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 2:44pm....but you should think a bit more about how you do it. I, personally, found the original post to be a bit over the top. You can find better ways to talk about these issues. It isn't necessary to use a club.
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
Well, we lost a four year
Submitted by Mike on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 7:17pm.I have had kidney stone. That hurt.
I would trade all my tendons and ligaments for a chance to hold my four year old again or to rock that child who was never born.
Mike, I'm so sorry
Submitted by jlw on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 7:23pm.I know a lot more about pregnancy than TFI...
Submitted by jlw on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 2:28pm.yeah, what she said
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 2:38pm.simply from a physical
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 3:00pm.simply from a physical standpoint it is more intense than an injury
If you could compare the physical effects of a miscarrage/abortion on a woman to anything, what would it be? Norm, I believe you said you're at St. Pete's. What do you think it is physically comparable to?
How can The Fire better understand the physical effect of pregnancy? Do I need to crash my car into a pole? Light myself - well - on fire? Shoot myself in the foot? In the hand? In the hand and the foot? Surely there is some sort of physical toll a male can experience in order to understand pregnancy.
I'm not really going to do any of these to myself, but I want to know: What is pregnancy physically comparable to?
As for the chemical side: Why not push for research and development into prescription medication which could combat these imbalances which occur during pregnancy?
And then, bringing back in the social and personal meanings
Let's work to eliminate these social and personal meanings, then. I think people believe I'm kidding, that nobody could be so cold as to push for pregnancy to be a sterile experience void of any meaning. But I really could and don't see a problem with it if the fetus is nothing more than a "parasite." The way you change the perception of society is over time. If we work hard enough, we could eliminate the negative social and personal stigma associated with abortion. But it's only fair to also eliminate raising pregnancy to the status currently enjoyed, such as special protections for the womb in the event the carrier is physically injured (which many of you agree with) and benefits.
In fact, the more I think about this the more I wonder how plausible it would be for sex to be strictly for enjoyment ( e.g. promote each male to volunteer themselves to have a vasectomy through various programs after freezing their sperm; tax exemptions, perhaps?) and the birhing process to become more clinical (e.g. promote greater use of artificial insemination).
The number of overall pregnancies would probably be reduced, bringing with it a decrease in the percentage of American consumption of natural resources.
Hmmm, uterine contractions,
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 3:33pm.Hmmm, uterine contractions, high amounts of pain, possibly to the point of vomiting. I suppose it depends on how far along they are too. I mean you can miscarry early in the term and it probably can be compared to really bad menstrual cramping. Later on it is probably worse, thicker lining of the uterus, more tissue in there that needs to be sloughed(sp?) off.
So completely from the amateur perspective here. Maybe compare it to passing a bladder stone ( I've heard that compared to labor though) but it would be a small stone. There's a scope that goes into the urethra to inspect a mans bladder too, I imagine that wouldn't be comfy. I've seen male patients pull out there catheter before the bulb was deflated, not a happy time. Plus there can be major tissue damage. Maybe it could be compared to having pollup removed from your colon, generally you are sedated for that though.
Short answer? I don't know for sure.
I still really think that nothing good can come from this thread though. Really folks this is a personal subject, why don't we just talk about our grandparents sexual relationship to top it off.
If the hormonal balance is changed, the pregnancy ends
Submitted by jlw on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 3:54pm.BTW, not everyone who believes that women have the right to choose abortion considers an embryo or fetus a parasite. I actually know quite a few pro-choicers who feel that they would never choose abortion themselves. That doesn't mean they feel it's their place to make decisions for others.
I've heard that passing
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 4:05pm.You should clarify what you
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 2:27pm.I think there are two sides to this. I agree with you in the sense that pregnancy is a natural occurance that happens everyday, a pregnant woman is not unique. I believe if the decision is made that abortion is needed, then for some it can be no different than any other minor medical procedure.
What I think you may be missing is the emotional side of it. There is some unexplainable thing that as a man I can't even begin to put into words, that happens to a woman when she becomes pregnant. Also, I think there is a big difference between a woman who loses a pregnancy and a women who decides to end a pregnancy. I'm sure there can be emotional consequences either way, perhaps regret even, but I would think there would be a difference.
I think it's a more nuanced issue than you're making it out to be. You should avoid the black-and-white, cut-and-dry definitions. Plus it just pisses off the lefties.
feck
Submitted by enpen on Thu, 10/26/2006 - 7:47am.Why respect pregnancy less? Even if you're a pure reductionist it's an absolutely amazing occurance. All you're showing with that statement is a complete and utter disregard for intellectual curiosity. If you ever have a kid I can only hope for your partner's sake that you'll be more supportive and interested and understanding than that.
"My opinion is shifting more and more into the direction that pregnancy should be treated no differently than a torn ligament, broken bone or disease."
And that's just an ignorant opinion. Comparing the treatment of a disease to a broken bone is worthy of the greatest Medieval Phlebotomists. Maybe instead of being so worried about getting "real world" experience, you should concentrate more on the books.
"If you are a dreamer, come in. If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, a hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer. If you're a pretender, come sit by my fire, for we have some flax-golden tales to spin. Come in! Come in!"
Comparing the treatment of a
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Thu, 10/26/2006 - 8:30am.Comparing the treatment of a disease to a broken bone
I didn't mean medical treatment. I meant that pregnancy should be viewed just as a torn ligament, broken bone or disease is treated ("classified"): as a medical condition.
When was the last time you organized a group of friends to come over and celebrate your torn ACL? That's what I mean by downgrading the status of pregnancy.
hmmm
Submitted by enpen on Thu, 10/26/2006 - 8:48am.Pregnancy, when it is wanted, is a wonderful thing and I would hope it is supported by one's community, as the end of the pregnancy can signify the addition to that community. It behooves people greatly to work toward that addition being a boon rather than a bane. It's social construction at its finest when people come together to support a new family.
Again, let me underline this, you're exhibiting ignorance.
"If you are a dreamer, come in. If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, a hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer. If you're a pretender, come sit by my fire, for we have some flax-golden tales to spin. Come in! Come in!"
Glee
Submitted by Sarah on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 5:43pm.It's time for me to walk
Submitted by Mike on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 7:22pm.Happy Trails
Submitted by Sarah on Thu, 10/26/2006 - 4:51am.Olybloggers, you make me proud
Submitted by Crenshaw Sepulveda on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 8:17pm.On the issue of MSRA in public hospitals, MSRA is a condition afflicting the poor and often homeless. We also see a lot of it in jails. The fact that the condition does not show up with such frequency in "private" hospitals speaks more of the clientele than it does the conditions of the hospitals. We see plenty of it here in our non-socialized hospitals.
"I would make it impossible for the covetous and avaricious to utterly impoverish the poor. The rich can take care of themselves."
^@^
I think you mean MRSA. I've
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 8:24pm.i always get the initals wrong, can't even pronounce it
Submitted by Crenshaw Sepulveda on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 8:47pm.Group Health is the profit driven version of socialized medicine. But we are seeing socialized medicine tendencies even in non-hmo type medical plans and institutions. We already have it, for better or for worse. Now is the time to make it universal, and to the extent we can, more humane, more responsive to the patients, and without a doubt, unconcerned about the profit motive and the bottom line. No one's life should be part of a balance sheet or report to stock holders.
"I would make it impossible for the covetous and avaricious to utterly impoverish the poor. The rich can take care of themselves."
^@^
"No one's life should be
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 10/25/2006 - 9:01pm."No one's life should be part of a balance sheet or report to stock holders."
Now that, that I can agree with.
I'd like to see the 1 out of 3 health care dollars...
Submitted by jlw on Thu, 10/26/2006 - 6:10am.you...
Submitted by enpen on Thu, 10/26/2006 - 7:05am.Now watch the spinning wheel. You're feeling capitalist...very capitalist. The insurance industry is your friend. Middle man is a synonym for needed and useful. The war in Iraq is bringing freedom to people everywhere. Communism is a bad word. Rich equals moral. More money means you're a better person.
"If you are a dreamer, come in. If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, a hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer. If you're a pretender, come sit by my fire, for we have some flax-golden tales to spin. Come in! Come in!"
Commie
Submitted by Sarah on Thu, 10/26/2006 - 8:28am."If you are a dreamer, come
Submitted by enpen on Thu, 10/26/2006 - 8:50am."If you are a dreamer, come in. If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, a hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer. If you're a pretender, come sit by my fire, for we have some flax-golden tales to spin. Come in! Come in!"