Call-Out: Manifestation At Tacoma ICE Detention Facility, 5 pm

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Call-Out: Manifestation At Tacoma ICE Detention Facility, 5 pm

Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 09/17/2007 - 5:00pm.

author: Smash ICE

Sep 17, 2007 17:48

Call-out:

Call-Out: Saturday, 5 pm, Manifestation In Front of ICE Detention Center, Tacoma (Directions and details below)

At 11 pm on Saturday night Immigrations and Customs Enforcement (ICE) set up checkpoints around a Lynnwood Fred Meyer store. At these checkpoints ICE was stopping everyone and checking their papers. Beyond these checkpoints they were raiding the Fred Meyer. When it was all over, ICE had detained six latino men who are now being shipped away from their homes, families and loved ones. The checkpoints and the raids are just a small glimpse of not only what immigrants are having to deal with on a regular basis but what everyone in the US will have to deal with in the future.

ICE agents can go anywhere they want with impunity, carrying their guns and looking at the skin colors of those they walk past. The Gestapo did the same thing in Germany. Why is this country different? Why is ICE not seen for what it actually is? No one in the government is going to put a stop to this. We cannot wait any longer for action to be taken by those in power. It is those in power who allow and want ICE to continue doing what it is doing. Lets show the powers that be that we will not be blind to their attacks on our friends, family, loved ones and our communities. Lets show them that we can see their institutions and their actions for what they are: racist Gestapo tactics that threaten each and every one of us. We must forget them and realize the only ones who will stop this horror are ourselves. All the work is for us to do and no one will do it for us.

There will be a manifestation at 5 pm in front of the Tacoma ICE Detention Center. Come in whatever capacity you can and with whatever you can bring. During previous actions ICE agents have been scanning crowds looking for people. Those with complications should think of not coming to this manifestation. All input and ideas are welcome. We will be meeting near the front gate of the Detention Center.

-Smash ICE

Location and Directions:

1623 East J Street
Tacoma, Washington 98421-1615

From North:
Take EXIT 135 toward PORTLAND AVE / WA-167 N / PUYALLUP. Ramp becomes E 27TH ST. Turn SLIGHT RIGHT onto PORTLAND AVE. Turn SLIGHT LEFT onto ST PAUL AVE. Turn LEFT onto E 15TH ST. Turn LEFT onto E J ST. End at 1623 E J St

From South:
Take the I-705 N / WA-7 S exit- EXIT 133- toward CITY CENTER. Take the exit on the LEFT toward CITY CENTER / TACOMA DOME. Take the EAST 26 ST. exit toward TACOMA DOME. Turn RIGHT onto E 26TH ST. Turn LEFT onto E D ST. E D ST becomes E 15TH ST. Turn RIGHT onto E J ST. End at 1623 E J St

Rob Richards's blog

All input and ideas are welcome.

Submitted by Tschida on Mon, 09/17/2007 - 5:24pm.

Immigrate to the United States legally and then enjoy the endless opportunity that this nation offers to everyone. Immigrate illegally and by your own choice live in continuous fear of deportation to the country you came here from. I particularly enjoyed the moral relativism of enforcing immigration law to Nazi Gestapo tactics of 67 years go. And liberals wonder why they are accused of hating their country! C. One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

Is there anything about this post...

Submitted by Rick on Mon, 09/17/2007 - 6:04pm.

...which is not meant to provoke conflict? Would you be able to talk about this issue in a less confrontational way?

When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow

Is it conflict or discussion?

Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 09/18/2007 - 7:47am.

The post explicitly invites input with this quote from Mr. Richards column, "All input and ideas are welcome."

Why is any disagreement with you or anyone else conflict. Why is it unreasonable to expect the citizens of this nation to obey the laws of the nation? Why is it ok with you for Mr. Richards to compare the United States to Nazi Germany? Why are you not outraged at such an incendiary comment?

C. One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in. Thomas Sowell

Not a liberal.

Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 09/17/2007 - 7:44pm.

moral relativism

I believe I've said this before, but I don't agree with many of the tenets of reformist/liberal/progressive thinking. Mainly because of the compromise involved, by compromise I mean sacrificing some of what you believe in order to gain some rights in return. I don't believe that rights are something that anyone owns. I believe that as creatures on this earth we all have the "right" to exist and be happy. Imaginary lines on a map created by those in power should not dictate our humanity. Therefore, in my eyes, your entire argument is moot.

Hmmm.

Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 09/18/2007 - 7:55am.

So Rob, What do you know about humanity that trumps virtually all knowledge of human history, when it comes to boundaries, borders and 'imaginary lines on a map'. People have had boundaries, borders, wall, and fences for just about all of history. (Lets for the sake of conversations say since the times of Ancient Egypt.)As for your denial of being a liberal/progressive/socialist/communist/anarchist, I don't really care. Here is my thinking as far as this goes; if it waddles like a duck and it quacks like a duck, more than likely it is a duck. If it works for you to define yourself as a anarchist or what ever it is called, great. I can understand the need to separate you from the liberal left. But I don't see how the positions you have stated to me are any thing other than quasi-Marxist. C. One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

I know that people with

Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 09/18/2007 - 8:26am.

I know that people with power/money/land have created borders and laws and the concept that rights are a thing to be given or taken away in order to keep their money/power/land. This immigration debate is that and only that, and then they pay slick PR people to create talking points and recite them over and over on TV and radio until their followers have learned them by rote, and then go to blogs and dinner parties and repeat them OVER and OVER in an attempt to get others to start repeating them. Most of the arguments against immigration are purely nationalist and have no real economic basis. Is there an economist in the house?

What does Marx have to do with anything? Are you just saying that to label me a communist, thinking that I'll be humiliated and others will shun me from the blog? Well, I'm more of a socialist than a communist, and I've never read the Communist Manifesto or really anything by Marx. I've read about him and his theories, he's all right I guess.

So, using your very own logic, I deduct this: Chris Brownell is a racist. Based on your response to my repost you simply don't want immigrants in this country, you don't have a reason for it, and if they come here you want them to live in fear for their lives and for their families to suffer. Quack quack.

I am racist, but you have never met me and ....

Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 09/18/2007 - 9:02am.

So to you, feeling the pain of all history of the oppressed, believe that money, borders and land are just tools used to keep people down? It has nothing to do with say security and safety? It has nothing to do with culture and the preservation of it? Perhaps France wanted to preserve its culture and customs when it was building the Maginot Line, in a failed attempt to prevent Germany from invading, or was it to keep the common man down?

I also enjoy how you insinuate that I am only offering talking points, and have no thought of my own. Very nice. That is awfully astute, considering I have offered time and again authors who promote a leftist agenda, and you have not read any of them. One of these times I will find something you have read. I will keep trying.

So how exactly am I a racist? When did I insinuate, imply, or other wise communicate any such idea that I am anti immigration? Oop, I am sorry, let me clarify for you, legal immigration? Where did I ever say that I as opposed to legal immigration? Is it racist in your mind that people would be expected to obey the laws of our nation? Is it racist that I would expect that people immigrate legally, as my wife's family did, as my sister in law from Brazil did? Is it racist that I would expect that legal immigrants work to become naturalized citizens? Should I expect my friend Vijay from India and his wife should not go through the legal steps to get green cards and then live and work here with out fear of being deported?

So why don't you go ahead and explain to me how I am a racist "using my very own logic", now that I have explicitly told you what I believe when it comes to immigration. Of course I will be waiting for Rick to admonish you for your inflammatory remark, and personal attack which was wrong and unwarranted. I will, however, not hold my breath.

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

Back away from the keyboard.

Submitted by Rick on Tue, 09/18/2007 - 9:09am.

Let's please refrain from name-calling.

And liberals wonder why they are accused of hating their country

Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 09/18/2007 - 4:23am.

Uh, I don't ever wonder about that.

Voted 1

Submitted by DC on Mon, 09/17/2007 - 8:21pm.

"Immigrate to the United States legally and then enjoy the endless opportunity that this nation offers to everyone. Immigrate illegally and by your own choice live in continuous fear of deportation to the country you came here from. I particularly enjoyed the moral relativism of enforcing immigration law to Nazi Gestapo tactics of 67 years go. And liberals wonder why they are accused of hating their country!"

Yeah, I don't really care if anything you said is valid.

It's so obviously inflammatory I can't help but think you are just being a jerk.

Inflammatory, yes...

Submitted by Rick on Mon, 09/17/2007 - 9:34pm.

...but no cause to engage in ad hominem language.

Ad hominem? How did I attack Rob personally?

Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 09/18/2007 - 7:57am.

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

You didn't

Submitted by DC on Tue, 09/18/2007 - 8:10am.

No, he means my remarks.

I think you are being a jerk by saying some of the things you are, they way you are. Rick identified that as ad hominem.

I don't think your beliefs make you a jerk. I even agree with some of the things you said, I'm just not interested in engaging someone who communicates like you have here.

I doubt you will make this a constructive conversation, but please, prove me wrong.

The way I read that, Rick's

Submitted by Meta Hogan on Tue, 09/18/2007 - 8:15am.

The way I read that, Rick's comments were not directed to you but to DC for calling you a jerk. Let's all breathe deeply and reread posts before replying, eh? We may be able to avoid some of the unnecessary quibbling (not to be confused with necessary vigorous debate). :)

You are correct Meta, Thank you.

Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 09/18/2007 - 8:35am.

Thanks, you are of course correct.

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

Last Sentence

Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 09/18/2007 - 7:16am.

OK, throw out the last sentence, "And liberals..."

I don't agree with hundreds of miles of fence (it's going to be torn down or mutilated to the point where people can fit through it), but I do believe we need to ensure everyone in this country is here legally. His first two sentences I can get behind and feel the exact same way.

We need to simply the process and reduce the individual cost but we can't ignore the problems illegal immigration presents.

our economy

Submitted by enpen on Tue, 09/18/2007 - 7:28am.

but we can't ignore the problems illegal immigration presents.

I agree. Right now the most immediate beneficiaries of illegal immigration are the company's who exploit them for below market wages. Then there's the access to less expensive food, child care, etc., etc., etc. that much of America enjoys due to the abundance of illegal immigrants in the country. In many ways illegal immigration drives our consumer economy much like slavery used to make cotton affordable. It seems like we should maybe address our economy's tendency to encourage exploitation if we really want to fix the "problem."

This was an interesting comment.

Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 09/18/2007 - 8:07am.

I would bet you a dollar against a dime that the illegal aliens who were taken into custody at the Fred Meyer were paid the same as the employees who are legal citizens.I disagree that the economy is driven by underpaid illegal aliens. Is some of it? Sure I would agree with that. Should the illegals be deported? Should the employers who don't do 'due diligence' in making sure they don't hire illegals pay heavy fines and do lots of community service? Certainly!Who benefits the most from illegals in this country? I would disagree with your assertion there also. C.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

Who benefits most?

Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 09/18/2007 - 8:22am.

The contractor who hires 10 undocumented workers so he can undercut his competitors by 20% or the undocumented worker who falls off the roof and finds out he isn't covered by L&I?

Let's not ignore them.

Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 09/18/2007 - 8:50am.

What are those problems, in your opinion? Honest question, let's tackle them.

proof

Submitted by enpen on Tue, 09/18/2007 - 7:20am.

Immigrate to the United States legally and then enjoy the endless opportunity that this nation offers to everyone.

I'm sure you have proof to back up your statement that America offers endless opportunity to everyone. Please provide.

And while you're digging up that data, please edify us on how it is not a logical fallacy to accuse somebody of hating America because the person is strongly opposed to one of the ways (at least) the country enforces its laws. I realize you didn't directly accuse anyone of "hating their country", but you brought it up as a rhetorical reality, so you get to defend that as well.

Ok, gladly.

Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 09/18/2007 - 8:32am.

How many examples of success would you like me to give you in order to satisfy your lazy attempt to make some kind of argument that people are not able to succeed if they:

A) Immigrate legally

B) Earn some kind of education that makes them proficient at something

C) Find gainful employment and work hard earning a living

I could start with my sister in law who immigrated here from Brazil, had some educations in her former country, finished her degree here at a community college in Seattle then on to UW, all while working different jobs but mostly as an apartment manager, then after graduation became an electrical engineer.

So how many examples would you like? What would it take for you to open your head enough to see the obvious right in front of you? Or does ignoring the obvious feed your stereotypical view that the United States is a bastion of racism and the liberal idea of a class based society?

While I am doing this for you, why don't you tell me how people are not able to succeed in this nation? How are they prevented from doing any job or earning anything they want? Becoming as successful as they like? How many federal state and local programs public and private as well are on offer for people to get the helping hand they need?

You said, "[E]dify us on how it is not a logical fallacy to accuse somebody of hating America because the person is strongly opposed to one of the ways (at least) the country enforces its laws."

Do you really need me to explain how comparing the United States in general and Immigration and Customs in particular to Nazi Germany and its Gestapo is not an example of how Rob hates this country? Your lack of obvious outrage tells me one of two things, either you have a very shallow understanding of what happened in Germany from 1936 to 1945, or you have an agenda that would allow you to disregard such a comment an instead claim I am offering a logical fallacy. Because someone feels strongly about does not make it permissible to quantify it as evil incarnate which is what the Nazi party was.

I will gladly engage you in debate all day long, so to speak, but I am not here to baby sit your childish arguments. You choose what it is going to be. C. One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

Again...

Submitted by Rick on Tue, 09/18/2007 - 8:44am.

...your comment seems much more aggressive that is appropriate for this to actually be an exchange of ideas. If you're really about engaging, then provide reasons for people to consider. This does not include dismissing their arguments "childish."

Interesting...

Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 09/18/2007 - 9:09am.

What exactly is 'aggressive', in comparing my comment to Enpen's? I would like to know. I would not want anyone to think that you are putting one Olyblogger under a different level of scrutiny than the others. Being a docent you want to be fair right?

So could you please tell me how I am being aggressive, and how I should take Enpen's comment if you think it was not a childish attack at someone he disagrees with? The more specific you can be the better.

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

Y'know, as soon as I read

Submitted by Norm on Tue, 09/18/2007 - 8:54am.

Y'know, as soon as I read this I knew it was going to become a hot thread. I'm just going to leave it at that. Consider this a friendly reminder.

chicken

Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 09/18/2007 - 8:56am.

bocka,bocka,bocka

Sticks and Stones

Submitted by Norm on Tue, 09/18/2007 - 8:58am.

This just seems to be another touchy subject. That doesn't mean we shouldn't pick it apart and discuss viewpoints, I just think it would be good if we all walked softly. That's all :p

This thread has turned sour.

Submitted by Rick on Tue, 09/18/2007 - 9:11am.

So I'm locking it. Let's try again later.

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