I heard this program on FRO (Free Radio Olympia, frolympia.org,) last night. The program is a couple hours long. Here's a link and more description: www.unwelcomeguests.net/556
⌚ Sat 24 July 2010 ☻ Ivan Illich (reading), Stephen Bezruchka, Richard Wilkinson, Kate Pickett
This week we challenge traditional ideas about wealth and poverty. Our main piece is by two English professors, Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett on their 2009 book, The Spirit Level: Why More Equal Societies Almost Always Do Better. But first, we conclude the Ivan Illich reading from episode 554.
Comments
Truth about the economy
Robert Reich video from Moveon.org:
"Why More Equal Societies
Do Better
The authors, Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett, discuss this at length in the audio program. But the short answer is that more equal societies do better in terms of overall health and happiness, and in terms of reduction in crime.
Inequality in wealth, they argue, is the greatest driver of violence in society.
Sounds like classroom theory.
Standards of Living
Hey John, thanks for entering into this conversation. Your comment has inspired me to type away for a few minutes here.
You write that the USA is the most affluent with the highest standard of living in the world. As a police officer, I wonder how you can say that, because I am sure that you are aware many people in the USA do not have high standards of living. The USA, amongst industrialized nations, has one of the highest rates of violent crime (and of incarceration, many for offenses that are considered not violent, like drugs—no doubt in thanks to the sweeping increase of privatization in the prison industry. More prisoners=more profit for investors. More prisoners means more riches for the wealthy.)
The USA has one of the greatest disparities in wealth between rich and poor. (Thanks to capitalism.)
You can call it a classroom theory. But if you listen to the radio program, then you will hear the argument applied to real world socio-economic-political situations. The authors make a clear, persuasive and convincing case for how disparity in wealth, and the behaviors that lead to that disparity, affect people on a daily basis (increased crime and acts of violence.)
For example, some people make money off of war, and related policies of American Exceptionalism—international dominance. Some make money from stealing from other lands and peoples. All the while others lose their jobs when, for example, transnational companies relocate manufacturing to overseas.
(All of which lends itself to the idea that being rich as a measurement of success is not the best for society.)
For me, it basically comes down to the idea that people—all people—deserve to be, and ought to be, treated well. That includes, again, all people, regardless of age, gender, sexual orientation, ability, religious or ethnic background, or nationality, etc.
Blaming poor people for being poor, when the forces enabled by Wall Street (and a Wall Street friendly government) constantly-erode-the-likelihood of widespread economic security and stability, doesn't make sense.
Poor people are the victims here, in a long-long-long, ages long, war of rich against poor. Most people just want to get by, and have enough to live a decent and happy life. Maybe the problem is that some people just can't get enough. Some people feel the need to be at the very top of socio-economic hierarchy. Some people aren't satisfied unless they have control over other people. And we have socio-cultural and political systems that enable and 'reward' people who behave with intense ambition to 'get ahead.'
So it's a cultural phenomenon. And as long as some people view themselves as superior to others, whether it is based on race, age, gender, nationality, or ambition to get rich, then we will constantly have people who are willing to put others down, separating, comparing, contrasting differences in order to justify their own motives and ambitions for climbing up, even while others are pushed down.
Wealth is great. So long as it doesn't necessitate oppression. So long as it doesn't involve racism, or war, or any kind of other violence—including judging others based on political or cultural differences.
I tihnk that one of the reasons that many (what you might consider to be) 'socialist nations' aren't as wealthy as 'capitalist nations' is because of sanctions (which are aggressive) placed by capitalist nations.
Competition
Competition has its place. But when competition gets to the point of subduing, subjugating, demeaning, or behaving in ways that are downright cruel (or even just unfriendly,) then what good does that do—except to divide, and to open up corridors for greed and avarice, toward the pursuit of conquest.
There is enough (air, water, space, land, earth, money, time, love, etc.) in the world for everyone to have enough, and to live decent and happy lives. Why some have so little when others have so much is a matter of economic and distributive justice. It is not so much a matter of the poor being to blame for their poverty.
That's what I think.
To answer your question about places that have as good or better standards of living than the US: again, you can find some answers to your question in the radio program linked above. Some of the examples mentioned in the program include Germany, France, and Scandinavian nations.
Of course, there is the likelihood that Cuba would rival the USA in terms of wealth, if it wasn't subjected to such cruel and unusual sanctions.
The point here, again, is that we can have it all. We can have a wealthy, prosperous, industrious society, and society where everyone can have a decent, meaningful, and dignified job.
We can take care of the planet, we can take care of ourselves, and we can take care of each other.
It's a question of human v. nature, and human v. human, versus —human with nature, and human with human.
The US has the greatest income disparity
among industrialized, developed counties (as measured by the Gini Coefficient). There are plenty of other countries with less equitable distributions of wealth or income. Still, the US has a decidedly unequitable distribution of wealth that is perpetuated by our wealth-friendly tax code. I wouldn't blame it on capitalism, but on the tax and regulatory system that rigs the game in favor of the wealthy few..."rigged-market Capitalism" parading about as free-market capitalism.
As measured by the Human Development Index (HDI),
which includes life expectancy, literacy, and material standards of well being, the US ranks 12th behind Iceland Norway, Australia, Canada, Iceland, Sweden, Switzerland, Japan, Netherlands, France, and Finland. Most of these countries, like the US, have what are considered mixed economies (no one is purely capitalistic or Marxist, so that dichotomy is pretty meaningless these days). The "mix," of course, can vary.
The HDI and income (or wealth) distribution are related. One way to measure income distribution is with the Gini Coefficient, which is stated as a ratio between 0 (perfect equality) to 1 (perfect inequality). For example the Gini Coefficients in Sweden and Nambia are .23 and .70, respectively. On average, a country's HDI ranking increases one rank for every 0.0948 descrease in it's GINI Coefficient. So, yes, there is a relationship between equality and well being. It is not a perfect relationship, but it is there...on average.
Robert,Have you been to
Robert,
Have you been to France or Germany? I have in the early 80s, and the standard of living, although not 3rd world by any means is no where near what the standard of living is in the USA (our middle class has a better quality of life than either Germany or France) I have never been to Sweden or Norway, so I have no REAL LIFE experience to share about them here.
Yes, there are disparities in the USA, but the opportunities abound. Even those who lived in poverty have risen to riches by their own hand and hard work. Yes, in capitalism, if you are lazy and unmotivated you will find capitalism very unforgiving. But if you work hard, you will reap the rewards many times over.
I personally believe that everyone should be compensated by what they provide in the society. Work hard, reap the rewards. If you are lazy then you can wallow in poverty....your choice...and frankly very fair. But don't expect to get just because you have a pulse. Don't think cuz Bill Gates worked hard and made something of himself that he should have to share his piece of the pie with you, or me.....It is capitalism that develops the work ethic in this country and the work ethic has produced the HUGE accomplishments this country has delivered to the rest of the world. The accomplishments in medicine and engineering to name a couple.
This redistribution of wealth philosophy will result in a huge drop in the quality of life in this country. Sad for my kids and grandkids, cuz they will never benefit from the hard labor of the generations that came before them no matter how hard they work.....sad indeed.
If this country's economy collapses as it converts to socialism or worse, I'll look you up and see how you are gettin along and if you like it...... ;-)
FWIW
Logic of the system
So what you're saying here, is that it should come as no surprise that workers organize to defend their property (labor) and get a fair price for it, discarding the lazy and the unproductive middle and upper management in their companies and discarding the interest-charging bankers in favor of credit unions and other forms of responsive, responsible collective capital management. And you're saying that you as a former police officer would expect that your former colleagues (the police) should support such action rather than hinder it through enforcement of petty laws in the service of economic perogative enforcement.
That's a rather surprising position, John. It shocks me that you would support collective organized social arrangements rather than predatory capitalism and austerity measures such as are often imposed by the International Monetary Fund and other 'socialist' structures. Care to clarify?
Drew, I will be happy to
clarify about my inconsistencies you mention, when you clarify your inconsistencies you mention and how you are disenchanted with officers having the same benefits of a union as the average laborer.....
Values
Your stated values seem at odds with your political "stance" in that you claim you are anti-parasite, yet pro-capitalist. Capitalism is the rule of capital (those who have money) at the expense of everyone else who needs to use capital (business, government, individuals) and the enrichment of these rulers without doing any particular useful work. You might say "But Drew, they are providing the money!" but the fact is, no - they are borrowing that power from the US Congress and renting it back to the rest of us, both indirectly and directly.
I'm not against police having unions. They don't have unions, they have guilds. They (Police) also don't protect the rights of the rest of the working class in this country, but more often interfere with their right to organize. It's no mistake that police officers usually identify with the "middle class" rather than the working class.
But you're mixing two threads, and I asked you a very direct question about your political / economic pose on this thread. Answer that if you can. You can't, I would bet.