Citizen Oversight of Law Enforcement in Olympia

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Citizen Oversight of Law Enforcement in Olympia

Submitted by Mike on Sun, 11/11/2007 - 7:04pm.

The little red balloons on the map represent the communities that have established citizen oversight of law enforcement.

Here is a link to the website for the National Association for Civilian Oversight of Law Enforcement.

Citizen oversight of law enforcement is an idea whose time has come.

Police Chief Magazine has an article about citizen oversight in their October 2003 edition. You can read it here.

It's written from the pov of law enforcement and is largely interested in the appearance of accountability instead of the burden of accountability.

Nonetheless, I encourage folks to read it. But I will quote this section because it speaks to the question about whether citizen oversight of law enforcement is a reasonable idea:

The issue of whether some form of citizen review is appropriate may have been settled from the public's viewpoint. Three-fourths of the largest cities in the United States have established some form of citizen law enforcement review.3 These actions represent a de facto public finding that the civilian oversight is an appropriate response to the problem of law enforcement malpractice.

Police Assessment Resource Center is another valuable and informative website.

I think that some basic footwork and research to identify the best model for citizen oversight would help the community decide what model of citizen oversight makes sense for Olympia. We would not be inventing the wheel here.

Mike's blog
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Hey Mike,

Submitted by Rob Richards on Sun, 11/11/2007 - 7:10pm.

Would you be willing to send this information, in email format to the city council and post their responses? It would be valuable to get their opinion on it.

OPD has great accountability...

Submitted by security_six on Sun, 11/11/2007 - 8:23pm.

I will not go into great detail on a recent personal experience with OPD and their complaint system as someone else's blog is really not the place to discuss my own personal encounters (*cough* *cough* as I seem to magically lack the blogging ability *cough* *cough*) but will state that they have an excellent system, multiple independent tiers of oversight and approachable staff. My rather unusual issue was resolved to mutual satisfaction in an unusually short time. I think OPD has a model that should be followed at other agencies.

and by OPD you mean...

Submitted by Rob Richards on Sun, 11/11/2007 - 10:34pm.

...Ontario Police Department?

Seriously, you just described the exact opposite experience I've run into. In my experiences the OPD grievance procedure is where grievances go to die. I've never seen anything come out of a complaint against an officer, never even heard of the complainant being contacted for more info. My experience has not been anywhere close to what you're describing here.

Then I had a unique experience...

Submitted by security_six on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 10:21am.

My complaint was made the day after a rather humiliating stop/frisk in the park, and three weeks later was resolved to my satisfaction to the mutual benefit of both parties. In fact I still need to write a letter expressing my thanks to the Olympia Police Department. Perhaps it is all in how you handle the complaint. I had the weight of state law and the courts on my side in this matter though...

I'm interested in how that went down.

Submitted by Rick on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 10:27am.

Would you feel comfortable describing it in more detail?

When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow

More detail...

Submitted by security_six on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 11:42am.

"Would you feel comfortable describing it in more detail?" Rick I think you know where I would be comfortable describing it in more detail. Something turned off about three hours after I registered. I said I would not post in the open on someone else's blog. It is not the place to hijack their posting, as I am almost certain what I did and what happened will end up hijacking this thread. I have no problems sharing in all it's Technicolor Glory what happened to me, in fact I have done so on another website where such things as I was doing at the time of the stop are discussed. I will be happy to share, but not by taking over someone else's thread. Private messages will get some info. You want the whole story, I need a place to share it. Time from complaint to conclusion 3 weeks, concluded to the benefit of myself and the OPD gained a bit from it too...

Why Aren't You Being Allowed To Blog Security_Six?

Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 1:38pm.

Docents - Are new members not allowed to blog? If so, why?

"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown

It's a new process being

Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 1:42pm.

It's a new process being tried out here that would make the blog a more intentional community. It prevents people who want to post nothing but inflammatory things, or post weird spammy stuff from being able to do so on a blog. It's done on a lot of blogs, it's just a way to keep things from getting crazy as membership numbers rise. Think of it as a probationary period for new members.

What's The Purpose Of Probation?

Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 1:46pm.

if they don't have blog posting capabilities? Just moderate the blogs during the probationary period instead of silencing their voice altogether. The point of blogs is to communicate, not silence those you don't want to hear from because they don't agree with you. Spam could be prevented through moderation as well.

"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown

It's a new process....

Submitted by security_six on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 2:08pm.

That just happened to be turned on right after I got into words with Rick. So I am relegated to second or third class status until somebody decides arbitrarily that I am mostly harmless.

"Security through Obscurity is not Security"

I don't know if this is the

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 1:44pm.

I don't know if this is the answer, but there was a Call to Arms in that other place's comment threads telling everyone there to open accounts here and "take us over". There's a little bit in the docent emails about restricting access to newbies at first.

[EDIT: and then it was explained at the same time I was typing this.]

It's the same old story - Everywhere I go, I get slandered, Libeled, I hear words I never heard in the bible

I Can Understand

Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 2:37pm.

if there was a call to arms to take us over but in fairness, posters also said you didn't need an account here just to read. It still seems like the wrong message is being sent by Olyblog to cut off access completely until you can figure out which side who is on and then determine who to let in & who to keep out. Moderate their posts for a bit but don't cut off their access completely.

"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown

Now Onry

Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 3:10pm.

we can't just have chaos in the streets can we? ;-)

You can read about it on the docent's list

Submitted by Rick on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 3:17pm.

...here. security-six has his nose out of joint because he happened to have just signed on when I made the changes.

Look around on this blog. Do you see a lack of different view points? And so why is it that ANY attempt to apply some limits is blown totally out of proportion by you folks? Get a freakin' grip.

Here's the deal: from now on new accounts can post, but their posts are moderated until it is determined that the new person can carry on a civil conversation. END OF STORY. No one has time or inclination to screen for political positions. Grow up.

Oh my...

Submitted by security_six on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 3:45pm.

I didn't think people got angry here. I thought civil conversations were they name of the game. Who has their nose out of joint?

We try

Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 4:12pm.

and fail. But sometimes we get it right...so we keep trying.

Do nor do not

Submitted by security_six on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 4:19pm.

There is no try.

On trying

Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 4:29pm.

Someone said, "A man's reach should excede his grasp, or what's a heaven for."

Thread is being hijacked.

Submitted by Mike on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 3:20pm.

Can we keep this discussion in its own area?

Unhijacking then....

Submitted by security_six on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 4:33pm.

Here is what happened to me.

In Washington State it is legal to openly carry a handgun in an exposed holster, so long as you are not carrying in a prohibited place, or are not engaging in behavior that "warrants alarm" for the safety of others. In other words, minding your own business packing heat, perfectly legal. A person worried that I was reading a book and eating cookies while taking responsibility for my own protection and safety called 911. Three OPD responded. The usual, stand up, hands behind head, frisk, etc... They were rather polite and never made aggressive moves, and finally begrudgingly acknowledged I had broken no laws. One officer placed my weapon inside my backpack without my permission which I complained about as well.

The next day I spoke with a Lt. from Professional Accountability or whatever they are calling it (am too tired to look it up right now) who right off the bat understood I had broke no laws. I asked some questions, he asked some questions and a recorded statement was made. I was assured the investigation would be quick. Over the course of three weeks we exchanged some emails and phone calls touching on privacy rights, the right to bear arms, and open carry in general. The end result was they found that the officer did not open my pack, but rather inserted my weapon in it without opening it. A three page document was prepared to clarify the laws on Open Carry in this state and was distributed to the OPD.

End result? My civil liberties have been respected and acknowledged, and the OPD have had a sticky issue clarified. Both parties won. Myself and the OPD engaged in civil and polite discourse. It is amazing what happens when you meet and treat the OPD as an equal, not an evil force, when you see they are men and women, not horrible beings out to destroy your rights.

I own guns and am not shy about empowering my own defense. I do not see fit to conceal my weapon, my protection, but rather let it be known that I have taken responsibility for my own safety, rather than someone else do it. It seems that I have had a rare experience with the OPD. I don't know, all I can say is if you treat them like humans, it is amazing, they treat you the same. Visit www.OpenCarry.org for more info. (sorry for the plug but it is part of the story...)

Very cool

Submitted by Sarah on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 4:57pm.

Thanks for writing this up and sharing with us, great report. Glad all went well.

More to make a point...

Submitted by security_six on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 5:00pm.

I have every desire to share a lot, I shared this out of my better judgment here on this thread to make a point about content.

Well, that and to show that the OPD is not the monster popular *unbiased* opinion would have.

So Rick, how about now?

I think it's a clear minority here

Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 5:39pm.

that considers the OPD monstrous. What gives you that impression?

I think you're wrong. Read

Submitted by Norm on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 5:41pm.

I think you're wrong. Read back a few months, the majority of the blog contributors could be considered anti-authority/anti-police.

It think the key word is monster

Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 5:52pm.

I'm anti-authority and I am critical of the police, but I do not consider them monsters by any stretch of the imagination. I can only think of one or two people here here who might.

Oh c'mon

Submitted by Norm on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 5:55pm.

You know what his point was. OPD can't do anything right, which is why they are considered to be a "neutered" department by so many others in the area.

that's your characterization, not mine

Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 5:59pm.

By saying, "the OPD is not the monster popular *unbiased* opinion would have," six is grossely mischaracterization the majority of OlyBloggers or the community as a whole. If he thinks most people are critical of the police, he should say so instead of stooping to such hyperbole.

Hmm...

Submitted by security_six on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 6:23pm.

Too many people complaining about being pepper sprayed after being ordered to disperse. Too many posts over the time I have been lurking that complain about OPD. Then it is a pretty vocal minority that has given me this impression, which I am willing to grant.

Speaking of characterization... have you read my blog lately? Oh yeah, there isn't one... so this seems to swing both ways lately.

So let us assume that the majority here does not think ill of the OPD, or simply has no opinion on the matter. Well and good.

There is usually a strong anti police sentiment in these sort of communities, which I have seen so far.

Don't see as many people praising OPD lately as complaining about them...

More Dick Nixon than Bob Marley

Submitted by Mike on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 5:58pm.

to file a complaint against OPD about the right to carry weapon openly. I will suggest that a second amendment beef with OPD might have better chance of a satisfactory outcome than a fourth amendment beef regarding illegal search.

When you talk about gun rights, you are talking police language.

Did you think about making an appearance downtown this past week with your weapon on display? Maybe reinforce the lesson of the three page memo on open carry law?

I did...

Submitted by security_six on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 9:52pm.

A lot of cops don't like private citizens with guns, and a lot do, it's a mixed bag.

I OC'd Thursday downtown, went into Last Word Books and Old School.

I never stopped OCing, and have been seen by cops while doing it.

I crossed the bay a couple of times while the ship was unloading and was stopped by the coast guard, was carrying twice, never even was asked for ID. The Coasties were more interested in making sure I stayed on the far side of the channel..

As far as the illegal search complaint I was satisfied with their conclusion, because it was perfectly reasonable, showed good intent on the part of the officer (you would have to read all my communications...) and quite frankly I threw it in the mix because I was pissed. They knew it, I knew it. The important thing is that the main issue (lawful open carry) was addressed. I hope to raise awareness here about OC, but got a bit sidetracked trying to regain my voice...

Given my experiences, I still maintain that the OPD will give anyone a fair shake. I have talked with rank and file officers who are not happy I OC, believe me some of them are strongly against it, but I still achieved a good end.

Let me think about it.

Submitted by Mike on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 8:26am.

I am waiting to see what comes from the community forum that took place last night at Traditions.

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed." President Dwight D. Eisenhower April 16, 1953

Rob

Submitted by DJW on Sun, 11/11/2007 - 10:41pm.

Not sure what the problem is. I have had two seperate incidents with OPD. Both were handled extremely well. Olympia PD kept in constant contact and both situations were settled to mutual satisfaction. I was impressed by how eager they were to help and communicate. Part of the problem for some people is that they are very rude and think the police should jump for them. A little respect goes a long way. Not pointing finges Rob, just stating an opinion.

I think the experience with OPD

Submitted by Guglielmo on Sun, 11/11/2007 - 10:44pm.

depends on which side of the club, or taser you're standing on.

Well...

Submitted by security_six on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 10:23am.

There were three of them surrounding me... So that's what side I was on. Of course as another person mentioned, you have to be polite and treat them as you would want to be treated. Of course I'm sure everyone here knows the multiple tiers of independent accountability and oversight the OPD has...

You may not be pointing fingers,

Submitted by Rob Richards on Sun, 11/11/2007 - 10:55pm.

but I feel like you are making assumptions about how I would act in a given situation. That's OK though, it's only human. I'm a really reasonable and easy going, easy to get along with person. I'm like Buddha I let things roll off my back so easy.

I personally have never been through the grievance process, but have helped many people through it. Here's how it has been for me and the different people I've helped. First, fill out the form, then, turn it in. Then, wait. After a couple of weeks of not hearing anything, call. The call doesn't really go anywhere, usually "Your complaint is on file and awaiting review" or something that sounds like that. Then nothing.

I feel it relevant to disclose that the folks I work with are houseless. I don't want to make assumptions about your gender, race, or class, because I don't know you. I will say that after hearing you account, I'm left with the feeling that the system must just be broken for certain people (actually I've felt this way for a long time and hearing your account of the grievance process wasn't a big surprise to me). What does someone do if they feel that an officer has violated their rights or broken a law? Especially if they have no resources and are simply not trusted because they are poor, or a woman, or black, or mentally ill?

This is why I feel an independent citizens review board is necessary. So that the process provides equal access to everybody.

Citizen Oversight

Submitted by Mike on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 8:13am.

is largely driven by minority communities everywhere it takes hold. I think it is generally the case that law enforcement agencies do a good job of enforcing basic law and coordinating/communicating with a stable, traditional, and invested population. I think it is generally the case that law enforcement agencies do not do as well respecting constitutional protections with minority and marginalized populations. There is an argument to be made that law enforcement is more inclined to serve property rights than the law and that constitutional rights are often trampled in the service of property rights. This is a dynamic tension in the US that goes back to the Hamilton and Jefferson, the Federalist Papers, etc.

I believe that law enforcement agencies commonly enforce their collective politics that align with property rights instead of the law, and especially so as the law pertains to constitutional rights of individuals - first, second, fourth, fifth and eighth amendment rights.

Here is how it went for me...

Submitted by security_six on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 2:10pm.

You said it happened for you like this Rob...

"Here's how it has been for me and the different people I've helped. First, fill out the form, then, turn it in. Then, wait. After a couple of weeks of not hearing anything, call. The call doesn't really go anywhere, usually "Your complaint is on file and awaiting review" or something that sounds like that. Then nothing."

Here is how it went for me.

I go inside and stand behind some crazy woman setting everyone on edge. After she is done, I ask to see a copy of a police report (I presumed one existed in my case, there was none filed it turned out...) She told me to fill out a form and wait up to five days. I told her very firmly that was unacceptable and that I wanted to speak to someone from Internal Affairs. Now. About a minute later my request was granted. The person I spoke with was polite, and well spoken and I responded in a similar matter. I explained my situation, asked a few questions, he asked a few other questions, we reached a basic understanding, I made a recorded statement, and left.

Over the next three weeks some phone calls, and emails were exchanged. I was a bit testy at times, my bad but who likes getting jacked up by cops? After three weeks the situation was resolved. I exchanged a couple more emails over two days clarifying the matter a bit more, and that was that. I was happy, they were happy and everyone smiled. I still owe the gentleman from OPD a letter of appreciation... Anyone who wants more specifics on this matter can message me... I don't want to post it in the open under someone else's blog...

Two questions for those opposing citizen review:

Submitted by Mike on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 8:18am.

Do you look more like Richard Nixon or Bob Marley?

Do you think it is possible that your experience with OPD would be different based on your appearance or economic status?

Heh

Submitted by Norm on Sun, 11/11/2007 - 10:56pm.

and Olympia can't figure out why the city is having such a hard time hiring officers.

Rob

Submitted by DJW on Sun, 11/11/2007 - 11:03pm.

I wasn't pointing fingers at you at all. My off hand remark was more for the professional police critics. I think we know who I'm talking about. Maybe the people you are helping are guilty by association which would be unfortunate. Again, not pointing fingers at you or the work that you are trying to accomplish. I'm not sure a citizens oversight is appropriate. I'm in favor of having outside agencies review complaints. Apparently I have no good answers for you.

I'm interested

Submitted by Rob Richards on Sun, 11/11/2007 - 11:19pm.

How does outside agency review work? I imagine they are paid to review grievances, and would not be connected to the PD in any way. I imagine they have some pull as far as holding officers accountable, say, if a single officer has a number of similar complaints filed against her.

Complaint procedures...

Submitted by security_six on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 10:54am.

www.ci.olympia.wa.us/NR/rdonlyres/9F6F8430-DDD6-4CE0-A179-0C0B6628D431/0/521M040406.pdf The OPD's procedures for handling complaints. It works if you work with them.

It's pretty clear to me that

Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 5:47pm.

It's pretty clear to me that there are a couple of realities here. One is that the grievance process worked very well in couple of cases, to the point where the grievers walked away feeling good.

The other is my lived reality, where for many homeless people there were nothing but closed doors. I'm trying to figure out how to balance that out.

Carry yourself as a citizen, not a victim.

Submitted by security_six on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 6:05pm.

People who are perceived as not having the backbone or willingness to fight for something are pushed aside. I refused to play the paperwork shuffle. I cut through the red time with one simple sentence.

Got to the top of the food chain, or as high as you can get that day. Shit rolls downhill. An email to the Chief or the City Manager will get read and someone will deal with it. Why? Because Chiefs and Managers do not like being bothered with things those delegated under them should have to deal with.

I did not short circuit the chain of command in my case, but in some cases it may be needed.

A citizen is freely armed, freely speaks his mind, reads and believes as he chooses, votes as he pleases and is able to have his voice heard in the halls of government? Why, because a citizen delegates his power to the government and both parties know this. A subject is walked over because it is seen that this person has no voice. A citizen has rights and responsibilities. A subject has no voice and grovels. Quite frankly if I can achieve and end such as mine, so can you. How many people here honestly will view the open carry of arms as acceptable to them? I'm willing to bet at least half. Of that half, I'll bet at least half of them would be the sort to go running to big brother when they see someone peaceably exercising that right.

You have taken a charge upon yourself to help some people. So don't be defeated by the system. You can get through to and be heard by the OPD. It took me five minutes or less. Why are you still taking so long? Make like the imported shoe and "Just Do It"

Hey Rick, how about turning that blog thingy on now?

6

Submitted by Sarah on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 6:13pm.

Rick isn't on right now, please take a deep breath if you can and relax. :) Exactly what I'm gonna do myself. We have plenty of time here.

Time...

Submitted by security_six on Mon, 11/12/2007 - 6:18pm.

I'll take a deep breath upon equal treatment.

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