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Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Wed, 04/09/2008 - 11:21am.
Apr 17 2008 - 7:00pm On the eve of the Iraq War, retired Army Colonel Ann Wright resigned from the State Department, telling then-Sec. of State Colin Powell that without UN authorization the invasion and occupation would be a disaster. She was one of dozens of government insiders and active-duty military personnel who spoke out, leaked documents, resigned, or refused to deploy in protest of illegal government actions. |
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that without UN
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Wed, 04/09/2008 - 2:30pm.Versus the overwhelming success in Afghanistan, where getting countries to contribute troops is like pulling teeth?
I wish I could go listen to this stuff.
That UN authorization might have prevented a disaster in Iraq
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 04/09/2008 - 3:03pm.maybe
Submitted by enpen on Wed, 04/09/2008 - 3:34pm.If one were inclined to find the war in Afghanistan acceptable I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to convince that person that Afghanistan would likely be doing better had we more resources to allocate to its cause.
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
Agreed
Submitted by security_six on Wed, 04/09/2008 - 7:07pm.It would probably be over if even half the resources allocated to Iraq were sent there in addition to the present troops.
"Don't try to out-weird me, three eyes. I get weirder things than you in my breakfast cereal."- Zaphod Beeblebrox
"Beware the person who would take your guns. That person is your ENEMY."
Right
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Wed, 04/09/2008 - 8:52pm.But that would still be an American action.
According to DoD Personnel & Procurement Statistics, the U.S. Armed Forces has a total of 1.4M active duty personnel. By comparison, the British Armed Forces has 195,900 personnel available for Regular service and 222,300 for Regular Reserve.
Using "Personnel in French military" with a search engine will turn up nothing but jokes, but Wikipedia's page on the French armed forces lists its active personnel strength at 359,050 as of 2006 with a reserve force of 419,000.
However, 100,000 of those active duty personnel are gendarmerie and used for domestic law enforcement.
I have a difficult time believing that - outside of moral support - the international "stamp of approval" is the difference between winning and losing. Europe has little interest in ground combat these days. We saw the same thing with international missions in the 1990s during the Clinton administration. Sure, countries might make sporadic contributions, but it's American forces who are doing all of the dirty work.
We have nobody to blame for success or failure than ourselves. At the same time, that's all we can count on.
Hmmm...dirty work
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Wed, 04/09/2008 - 9:52pm.Maybe the retired Col. meant something like - if we didn't get the support of the international community to invade Iraq AND we go ahead and do just that anyway - we shouldn't expect the occupation of Iraq to be perceived as winnable or worth it to the international community.
Maybe if someone could raise some kind of realistic picture of what wining the war in Iraq would look like....
To me, I see no win. Only fight or not.
we shouldn't expect the
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Thu, 04/10/2008 - 2:32am.That's the fault of the current administration. The original goal - of toppling the Hussein regime - has already been met. Right now the purpose for troops to be in Iraq is to wait for stability to finally be realized. "Moral obligation" is a pretty vague justification.
The administration should come out and lay out - point by point - why it's in American and Western interests for Iraq to stabilize and be primed to accept Western ideals before troops should leave.
John McCain has come the closest to acknowledging this point by saying troops could be in Iraq "maybe 100" years.
I think on some level Western populations and governments are aware that it is necessary to have a military presence in the Middle East and - it would appear we're moving toward - Africa. From Foreign Affairs, July/August 2005, "Europe's Angry Muslims" by Robert S. Leiken:
While European populations may know it's necessary, they just can't bring themselves to actualize the fact that battling a radical element within a population is not restricted to domestic law enforcement (just as we believed prior to the 9/11 attacks).
As we're seeing with the protesting of the Olympic torch regarding Chinese policy toward Tibet, the world is far too small for any battle to be restricted to any one continent, whether it's fought with ideas or bullets.
There's a growing threat to our culture and standard of living coming from a militarized segment of a disgruntled population. Each front we're currently engaged in - Iraq, Afghanistan, Western Europe and the United States - is only one part of the larger struggle.
A realistic victory in Iraq? I think that's going to depend on what we're looking for.
In South Korea, a coup took place as recently as 1980, led by General Chun Doo-hwan (who subsequently took over as president). That's 27 years after the shooting stopped. The South Koreans didn't even have a civilian president until 1992.
I think that's the type of situation - one where the country can hold free and open elections in a democratic society which mixes traditional and Western values the current administration - and a McCain presidency - would be looking to leave Iraq in.
That's why it's worth it to the West.
I wish you could, too.
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Wed, 04/09/2008 - 2:41pm.Holy smokes
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 04/10/2008 - 8:40am."...growing threat to our culture and standard of living..."
Submitted by JT on Thu, 04/10/2008 - 3:37pm.That sums it up right there for me.
"...terrorists portray themselves quite successfully among Muslims as the exponents of true and pure Islam...(Robert B Spencer, author)
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