Compromise

About the rezone proposal, tonight's deliberations, and some recent interactions on OlyBlog:

I have recently been labeled and accused of such things as zealotry, fanaticism, extremism, and being unwilling to compromise (by people who post on OlyBlog.) This is a response. And let me tell you - I strongly object to being labeled with those terms. But if I am a zealot because I care about the environment, then that is OK with me. In fact, I wouldn't have it any other way.

Rezone Deliberation Composite

If I am an extremist, then I am only extreme in the same degree (albeit in the opposite direction) as mainstream culture is extreme. We live in a culture that prides itself on growth and expansion, even while the natural world resultantly suffers harm. I want to stop the destruction and to protect the natural world.

We live in a culture where people speed around, in cars that pollute, on often times meaningless errands, often times consuming for the sake of consumption - consuming to quiet the nagging noise of the silence that surrounds when stopped. Well, it is time to embrace the silence. If this culture is allowed to continue upon its current path, without some serious ameliorative efforts, it will, in all likelihood, kill itself.

(Don Delillo wrote about the White Noise [book title] and about the fear of death. It's time to stop fearing death. Stop fearing change. Stop promoting growth and destruction of the natural habitat. Stop killing ourselves and each other.)

The current consumption and materialism is not sustainable. Species are going extinct. Earth, air and water are polluted. What are we leaving for future generations? A legacy of destruction and waste, or a legacy of reconciliation, sustainability and balance?

Yes! Of course human culture has much to be proud of. There is much beauty and romance and wonderful creation. However - we (speaking of most of us in America) are living the privileged life. We pride our selves on equality and fairness. Yet we do not practice what we preach. Especially in terms of corporate policy and foreign policy.

People around the world (including many in the USA) are oppressed.

If I am an extremist because I object to oppression and exploitation, then so be it.

If I am a zealot because I object to special interests influencing public policy, then so be it. I will proudly wear my badge of zeal.

If I am unwilling to compromise, then I might as well take it the whole nine yards.

If some people think keeping the Isthmus open and putting in a park is unwillingness to compromise, let's talk about another possible route we could take a society.

Instead of the rezone proposal to increase building heights, how about a proposal to amend zoning regulations in order to create a 600 foot (or specific distance to be determined - i.e. it might be more than 600 feet) shoreline Wilderness buffer. Furthermore - this will be part of a Natural Hazards Mitigation Program - so that all structures currently in that 600 ft. buffer will be razed, pavement and any man made structures removed, and the areas will be re-colonized with native wilderness habitat according to the best available technology.

That might be extreme (it also might not be.)

Just such a buffer, same or similar, might be necessary one day to prevent total ecosystem collapse. Members of the Council talked about financial diversity. How about bio-diversity? How selfish, greedy, and self-centered are we?

This culture has almost completely destroyed wild salmon runs. That, for example, is extreme. Natural ecosystems are suffering and dying. That is extreme. This proposal to raise building heights on the Isthmus is what is truly extreme. What is extreme is rewarding the rich for activities which do harm.

Treading the path toward eventual societal disintegration and environmental destruction is extreme. Suicide is extreme.

People make millions and billions of dollars doing things that hurt people and the planet. That's extreme. Will some of those people living on Isthmus, affording the best views of the sound, be among those who are making money by doing things that harm humanity and the planet?

It is extreme is to further a culture of consumerism, right in the face of so many obvious environmental and ecological perils.

I understand that I have a lot of differences of opinion with people on the Council, and people generally in the community, who support the rezone proposal.

What is clear to me, though, is that this council is not interested in truly representing the people - who so overwhelmingly oppose the rezone.

What is clear is that what this community needs are people on the council who will truly represent them.

What is clear is that we need people on the council who are outside of the ownership class.

The park proposal is a compromise.

The right thing to do might actually be something, which might seem extreme - like to create a substantial and meaningful wilderness buffer (600 feet, 1/2 mile, whatever distance is necessary) adjacent to the Puget Sound, and tributary waterways - for the purposes of protecting wildlife, and habitat restoration - so that our culture is not encroaching and doing harm to the natural world that exists around us - the natural world that we, and more so, future generations, depend on for quality of life.

Protecting the natural world? Is that extreme. No. That's the product of science. Whole species are going extinct because of the actions of humanity. This culture has a legacy of bad stewardship. A legacy of killing and destruction. When will it change? Where?

Change must come from within. From within ourselves. From within our community. Change can start here.

I'll leave it with a couple quotes, this one from Kwame Anthony Appiah:

“Thoroughgoing ignorance about the ways of others is largely a privilege of the powerful.”

– Cosmopolitanism: Ethics in a World of Strangers, Kwame Anthony Appiah

The following is one of my very favorite quotes, by the much beloved Aldo Leopold:
"We abuse land because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us. When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect."
Capitol Lake | Capitol Center | Olympic Mountains

Comments

With all due respect the

With all due respect the current City Council is quite clearly representing the people who voted them in. I know it sucks to be outnumbered, I hate it when it happens to me, but that's life.

Council is Reprersenting the People that Voted Them In?

Is that true? I am not convinced. I was not as attentive to the last City Council election as I would have liked to have been.

However, I think a person would be hard-pressed to prove that the people of Olympia are being represented in the Isthmus Rezone.

Did any of the Council Members campaign on rezoning the Isthmus and putting luxury condominiums there?









If Tri offered to let you

If Tri offered to let you live in one of his condos rent-free for the rest of your life I'd be hardpressed to believe you wouldn't accept it. Because when Rob W. wants something he expects to get his way. Not because he earns it, but only because he wants it.

He wants a park, he expects the city to give him one. Even though he doesn't file a tax return (information gleamed from a comment he made to Drew Hendricks on Olyblog.) Is that because he's cheating the government, or because he earns so little income that he's insignificant?

If you want that damn park so badly what's stopping you from buying the property yourself? It was your choice in life not to earn a business degree in college and utilize the knowledge to your best advantage.

Face it, the home-owners and business-owners in Olympia count more than the renters, students and homeless. They outnumber the vocal crowd, those with time on their hands to demand that which isn't their's by right.

These personal attacks are distasteful

Could you cease and desist?
_________________________________ I don't wanna classify you like an animal in the zoo But it seems good to me to know that you're homosapien too -- Pete Shelley

Hold on a sec

Not filing taxes, i.e. not having a tax obligation does not make anyone's voice insignificant. The notion that money=enfranchisement is out and out bullshit.

Face it, the home-owners and business-owners in Olympia count more than the renters, students and homeless. They outnumber the vocal crowd, those with time on their hands to demand that which isn't their's by right.

Wow! How Antebellum of you Mary. How about making non-property owners 3/5th of a vote for those who do? Oh yea, the 14th amendment made that illegal.

And I though Bert's allegation of a conflict of interest on the part of a couple city council members was the stupidest argument in the rezone debate but boy was I wrong. Sorry Bert, I owe you an apology. 

I've been reading Olyblog

I've been reading Olyblog long enough to know that the general consensus among the users is that the 2nd Amendment doesn't count. Why should the 14th Amendment be any different?

Antebellum? Before the war, but I'm assuming you're referring to the Plantation Economy of the Old South. I'm not suggesting whatsoever that people should be slaves for any reason (outside of convicted criminals during their incarceration) and I trust that wasn't your argument.

However, workers and servants contribute, and therefore they count. Those who don't work, who don't earn, who don't contribute, don't have the right to demand that things they want just get handed to them.

OMG!

If you want a banana republic that bad why don't you go move to one.

OMG! (At 65 Decibels)

Likewise, if you want a quiet neighborhood that bad why don't you go move to one? Your argument that you just used on me is equally valid on you.

I don't have to want, I already have. What I described is the way it is and no amount of wannabe Revolution is going to make it different.

No it's not MBE, the arguments are not equivalent

I never suggested those who oppose the noise ordinance have no right to speak their mind nor influence the city council's decision.

You wrote that you oppose political activity by people who do not own property. Either defend or retract that assertion and not mis-represent my position on an unrelated issue.

Where did I write that I

Where did I write that I "oppose political activity" by people who do not own property? That's not even close to what I said.

You tell me to find what I want elsewhere instead of expecting Olympia to be that way. I wasn't surprised that you went into deflection-mode when the same sentiment was used on you. I expected that, different standards for different people has always been what Olyblog's about. That's why I thought my "some people count, some people don't" declaration would be accepted.

Interesting

It's nice to know that people like me aren't considered fully human by people like you. If you buy a condo downtown I'll be sure to give you an equally warm welcome.

Thanks, but I couldn't

Thanks, but I couldn't afford it in a million years. You see, I'm low-income, and I rent. That's right, in exchange for a home where I can strip naked anytime I want and tell anyone else to piss off and take a hike, I take about a third of my monthly pay and make an out-of-state owner rich. My life choices in the past led to this being the best option available for me at this time.

I was almost homeless not too long ago. But I had this unorthodox plan, it was this wacky idea that I'd get myself a job and live within my means. No more Jaeger Frappacinos at The Brotherhood, no more beluga caviar burritos at QB.

I want better looking buildings in town. I want a home of my own. I want Netflix's three at a time Unlimited plan. What I won't do is demand the city provide it for me.

Hold on now,

I go to both of those places, and I've never heard of those things. Do I not get that menu? Is that just for the cool kids or something? Man, I'm bummed.

you are caught...

...in a capitalist system you defend, and by your own admission you can't even figure out how to win at that game-

sounds like you need some help-

Advice: stop dissing people on this blog-

-I personally feel pretty sorry for folks like you who can't even make it in America...

...but then again, I'm a liberal, educated, thinking human who is fighting with every breath to stay out of the wage-drone, consumption based lifestyle (i.e. Capitalism)  that you defend-

I enjoy my freedoms just as much as the next person, so I'll see you on the nude beach in the middle of the Summer work week and wish you well-

-I'll be the guy taking sun-hits and having fun =)

 

chad360

in a capitalist system you

in a capitalist system you defend, and by your own admission you can't even figure out how to win at that game

When did I say I can't figure out how to win at the game? What I said was that I admit my own choices in the past has led me to where I am today. I'm taking steps to climb out of the hole I've been in, and I'm in a better spot today than I was five years ago.

sounds like you need some help-

Advice: stop dissing people on this blog-

That'll break me out of the poorhouse treadmill you assumed I was plodding along on? Actually, this is a moot response as I'm not in dire straits, nor am I stuck in a deadend existence.

I personally feel pretty sorry for folks like you who can't even make it in America...

Pal, I'm making it. I'm not starving. I have my bills paid ontime with a growing savings account and even some funtime cash left over. Cutting back on my Jaeger Frappacinos doesn't mean I'm destitute.

but then again, I'm a liberal, educated, thinking human who is fighting with every breath to stay out of the wage-drone, consumption based lifestyle (i.e. Capitalism) that you defend

Congratulations, I'm part liberal too. My political compass has me almost dead center, with the wavering direction being lower-left. I'm also a thinking human, and while I consider myself educated I don't have the paperwork proving it. I would have that scroll of paper if I hadn't pissed my time in High School away watching Three's Company reruns on KSTW and playing Duck Hunt on Nintendo.

Who said I was a wage-drone? There's advancement available in my company. My employer pays for my continuing education in the field I work in. Bonafide certification that I can use to get hired at other companies if I ever had to move.

You and others read a few opinions from me, and then assume that you can paint an accurate portrayal of my life and circumstances. You showed that among your great qualities, having Sherlock Holmes' power of deducement isn't one of them.

I enjoy my freedoms just as much as the next person, so I'll see you on the nude beach in the middle of the Summer work week and wish you well-

Well, actually, no Sir, you won't, unless that happens to be a week when I put in for vacation time. The unofficial Evergreen nude beach doesn't do it for me. Care to meet me at Saint Martin in the Caribean? That's where I'll be next Summer. It's called planning ahead and saving up. (That's how I afford my clothes when I'm not on the nude beach)

assumptions

MBE: you are the one complaining about being low-income & a renter-

--here I am up early doing business with my colleges here in the US & abroad and you are not a wage drone? compared to me you have not even realized that you are in a hive, 'bro--

You go to work for an employer who lets you have an edu, that is so nice for you =) wow

try running a business for yourself (you might like it)

-seems that if you can plan so well to travel (big deal), buying a house and not having to work would be easy, but then again what you posted about class and people not being equal (or whatever you wrote on Bert's post) really leaves me doubtful that you have much going on or capacity

MBE, why don't you have a nice job that gives you 100% free time? you say that maybe playing vids & watching TV was involved in distracting you? wow

...anyways, this is lame-

-we both know this is not about you, it is about what an ass you have been, being rude posting on Bert, so please keep a civil tongue in your head-

And, no MBE (wrong again, Sauvie Island, not TESC beach =)

>assumptions<

...weren't you just saying something about that? 

chad360

--here I am up early doing

--here I am up early doing business with my colleges here in the US & abroad and you are not a wage drone?

When you are awake early for your means of income it's something wonderful, but when I'm awake early for mine I'm a wage-drone? That makes sense.

try running a business for yourself (you might like it)

Damn straight I might. That's because I'd be an owner, and as such (following the path you're cutting for me) I'd be a better class of person than those lowly wage-drones.

MBE, why don't you have a nice job that gives you 100% free time? you say that maybe playing vids & watching TV was involved in distracting you? wow

Tell me, Sir. What kind of job gives someone 100% free-time? Oh, sure, someone who got lucky in business might earn enough that they don't have to bust their hump anymore for their future. That's fine, they earned it. Maybe you meant sales, where one chooses how hard they wish to try and get more commission.

Yes, when I a teen and in my early twenties, stupid crap like tv and vids made me a typical lazy fat American. I did my share of complaining how it was system keeping me from making more than four figures a year. Back then I really was a wage-drone, flipping burgers just like my frustrated teachers threatened would happen.

When I stopped complaining and got my butt in gear that's when things started to show some promise. And I didn't have to demand a handout from the city, state or feds in the process.

but we both know this is not about you, it is about what an ass you have been, being rude posting on Bert, so please keep a civil tongue in your head

I was harsh and critical, but tell me where I was any more rude than most of the rest of you have been in the recent past.

Not a good justification...

...that you're just being as rude as everyone else.


Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt

Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt

You're right on that, Sir,

You're right on that, Sir, but I'm not Jesus. When I turn the other cheek, that usually means I'm mooning someone.

Okay, so...

When you state that renters "count less" you're speaking from a position of bitterness at your own disenfranchisement?

I'm just trying to make some sense of your perspective. You seem really angry at people who you feel "don't contribute"... but from the POV of the wealthy interests that control our town, you don't contribute much either.

I am not bitter, I'm

I am not bitter, I'm content, and excited for a future that's gotten better with each passing month.

My anger is at those who want and demand things from others without having any right to expect it. Such as those who won't buy their own property telling other property owners to give them a stinking park because they want, they want, they want. What was especially galling to me was that one of the more outspoken gimme-a-park complainers makes sure he contributes nothing to the system, yet expects the system to sacrifice its piddly coffers for his wants.

he contributes nothing to the system,

Really? I imagine Bert pays rent and I know he pays sales tax on his non-food purchases. His federal tax obligations is irrelevant to the rezone issue.

Beyond that Bert does contribute to the system in many way including advocating for his beliefs. That is the core of democracy. You should know that I have sharp disagreements with the gentleman but no one can say with a straight face he does not contribute to our community.

You don't like his position on the rezone so you call into question his right to have a position. Well, I'm not too fond of your anti-democratic position on how our community shapes its future nor the way you have advocated for it but I'm not calling for your exclusion from the debate.

What I and others around here have unsuccessfully tried to get to to acknowledge there is more to our species than Homo Economous. (pardon my pidgin Latin)

And no, property owners in our nation do not have an unfettered right to do as they please with their property and never have.

chill out

MBE: chill out >please<

your class-based attitude is dated, and defeats any point you'd try to make-

-lay off-

chad360

My class-based attitude?

My class-based attitude? That's another pot-kettle-black statement from some (not necessarily saying from you personally) since there's this poor=noble and honorable, rich=crooked and evil attitude here. That's class-based too.

You are

absolutely right.

sure...

 

...but is the best thing to do to continue to use rhetoric that we all recognize as being useless?

blanket statements don't cover anything, they just obfuscate

if you don't like class rhetoric, then don't use it, and point out the lack of reason in using to others (maybe like Bert), and discuss the merit of that line of idiom-

-is it really allowing us to express what we feel and communicate, or is it the reason the conversation always polarizes and fails?

>just a few thoughts<

That is my point-

chad360

Likewise the council did not campaign on ishtmus rezone

This argument is moot.

The issue comes down as to whether the council is representing the clearly expressed will of the people on this issue. Here I agree with you Bert when I argue it is not.

Who Cares If They Did or Didn't

campaign on the Isthmus rezone? Are you assuming that if they had, those in favor of building on the Isthmus wouldn't have been voted in? That's really grasping.

I'm curious to know how many who don't want Tri Vo to build on the isthmus will answer Mary's question above.  If you were offered a rent free condo for lifetime, would you turn it down?

I certainly would

The project is not to my taste at all, and I wouldn't be comfortable in a place that was the site of so much ill will.
_________________________________ I don't wanna classify you like an animal in the zoo But it seems good to me to know that you're homosapien too -- Pete Shelley

I'd like to live in the Space Station rent free

but I don't think the Space consortium is going to make me that offer any more than Tri Vo would. The question If you were offered a rent free condo for lifetime, would you turn it down? is both moot and insulting.

Not grasping at all

Yes, JMK, if any candidate had made raising building heights on the isthmus a major plank in their campaign, they would have lost significant numbers of votes. There is no way to know whether that would be enough to lose the election, but perhaps.

The candidates didn't talk about it then because no one knew it would be an issue now. Instead, voters made their choices based on the issues being discussed then and on their general perception of the candidate's values and of how each candidate might respond to unknown future issues.

I am quite confident there are a substantial number of voters out there thinking "that's not why I supported that candidate".

Where is your proof of this?

Yes, JMK, if any candidate had made raising building heights on the isthmus a major plank in their campaign, they would have lost significant numbers of votes. There is no way to know whether that would be enough to lose the election, but perhaps.

Oh, that's right, there is none.  Just like there is no proof that one group is in the minority and one group is in the majority.

But given you're more famous for your bullying and temper than you are your contribution to Olympia, I'll let you have the last word on this statement because I'm sure you believe it.

Oh, shut up.

Mathew Green has done and is continuing to do more for this community than you could ever dream to. Your Rovian bullshit clinging to one incident that you obviously don't have all the info about, or don't care to because the facts you have suit your needs, just makes you look ridiculous.

What's your angle here anyways? Why do keep bringing up this one event from over 5 years ago? It's really pathetic.

Temper, Temper

Careful. You might pop a vein.

You don't even know who I am so how do you know what I have or haven't done for my city?

My opinion is just as valid as yours, the difference is one of us handles it with dignity and the other resorts to anger.

I can tell because the people who talk big never back it up...

..and are always quick to criticize the people putting in the work. You don't anger me, I wouldn't waste that energy on you.

Your opinion is your opinion, and it's validity is relative.

Is hiding behind opinion in order to defame someone considered dignified where you come from?

Interesting Assumption

..and are always quick to criticize the people putting in the work.

Interesting assumption given you supposedly have only been a member here for 7 weeks and I've only posted 2 blogs and a couple of responses to the pizza conversation in the 31 weeks I've been a member here.  

I know the truth, that's all that matters.  Glad to know I don't anger you though!  Have a great rest of your day!  I know I will!

Hello, Kettle? It's me, Pot.

Hello, Kettle? It's me, Pot. You're Black!

I can tell because the people who talk big never back it up...

Such as you, Whitlock, etc? Or is it different when you folks talk big because you're so damn special?

I know for a fact that JMK has recently donated more money than most of us earn in a full day's work to a worthy cause that even you people could get behind. Yeah, J does nothing for their community...

OK listen,

You can focus on that one sentence if you want, it certainly works to distract us from JMK's mean-spirited comments about Matthew Green.

Internet anonymity obviously prevents me from knowing who JMK is, and unless they're going to out themselves on the blog I am left to speculate what those initials stand for, if anything, based on what's been said. I defend anonymity and wouldn't have it any other way.

Giving money is really nice, and needed given the state of the economy. I'm not interested in a pissing contest about who does what. I retract my statement regarding that and apologize for any offense.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and entitled to express them, even if it hurts other people in the process.

Let's try to remain civil, and discuss these issues using reason and logic, instead of malice and argument. Mea Culpa

Fair enough. I appreciate

Fair enough. I appreciate some of what you just said, and I'll stand back for the moment.

We can answer this question

We can answer this question definitively next year. Let's see how many city council candidates -- in their own campaign literature -- talk about their vote in favor (or support for, for nonincumbents) raising building heights on the isthmus versus how many talk about their opposition. I'll bet $100 that there will be more of the latter. Seriously, $100 -- or more if you wish.

Anybody going to take me up

Anybody going to take me up on this? I really could use the $100.

only if you give me 20 to 1 odds

...

At 20 to 1, you could pay

At 20 to 1, you could pay them to mention it, and still profit. Hmmm, I wonder if any of them would go for that...

"Will some of those people

"Will some of those people living on Isthmus, affording the best views of the sound, be among those who are making money by doing things that harm humanity and the planet?"

Ridiculous. I am sick of the rich = baby eater argument. Suddenly the workforce is the picture of sustainability, and richey is over here bathing in gold and using seal fur to wash her cars. Puh-leaze. How do you know that rich people aren't doing more to promote sustainability than you are? Perhaps they have millions invested in clean energy, perhaps they can afford solar panels on their home and are off the grid, and perhaps they can afford the luxury of buying expensive local items at local stores.

My council people are listening to me, so, yes they are representing my interests. And I am not making over $150,000 a year here, though over 4700 in Thurston County are, according to the census. Hey! That's about the same number of people that signed the park study petition.

But I am Just Another Voice

But I am Just Another Voice

JNA, you just turned a reasonable argument on its head

...$150,000 a year here, though over 4700 in Thurston County are, according to the census. Hey! That's about the same number of people that signed the park study petition.

By implication you are saying that those 4700 people are in favor of the rezone. If rich poeple are like the rest of us, metrics indicate a clear majority of them oppose the rezone. Don't assume, right?

Well, yeah, if we're still

Well, yeah, if we're still believing that less than 15% is a majority. Is that new math, or Orwellian math?

15% is a hell of a lot more than

the hard numbers the pro-rezone faction has mustered. Then again you don't seem to be any more interested in debating from the available evidence. You and Bert are akin in that you have taken a position and damn the torpedoes.

Comparing me to Whitlock?

Comparing me to Whitlock? Them's fightin' words...other than the beard we're opposites.

Of course I don't wish to debate. Pearls before swine and all that. Sometimes there's right and wrong, no shades of grey.

I didn't make any

I didn't make any assumptions about any number. I was simply stating some facts. I don't think I implied that those folks making over 150K a year are in favor of the rezone or the park proposal.

Just wanted to show that not everybody in Thurston County can't afford those condos, like some of the arguments we've heard.

But I am Just Another Voice

But I am Just Another Voice

Man...

Olyblog has really sunk. Sorry Rick, I know you tried. It must suck to see your baby go to the sharks. 

Gone to the sharks?

I don't know what it was like before, but Olyblog doesn't seem "gone to" anyone in particular since a fairly wide spectrum of opinion is represented here: radicals, liberals, conservatives, etc. Maybe a few too many conservatives for my tastes (I mean, they already have the daily Zero) but at least it's not totally one-sided conversation.

I agree...

...and thanks for making that observation.


Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt

Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt

there is still some

there is still some worthwhile discussion and exchange of perspectives here.  but there's also a heap of unconstructive ad hominem attacks.  please, folks, could you focus your comments on the issues?  if your goal is only to insult and belittle other people, perhaps you could take it to the comments sections of the olympian.