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Ethics

Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Wed, 01/23/2008 - 8:42pm.

Many of society's current stresses and strains can be traced to unethical behavior. Some are quick to assume personal benefit - even if it is at the sake of another's well-being.

The planet is suffering. The oceans' fish stocks are in decline and commercial fishing (of wild stock) is expected to fail before mid-century. Human society is causing global warming, the pH of oceans is rising with the absorption of massive amounts of carbon. Humans kill each other over territory and resources. Innocent people are hurting because of the specific actions of others.

I am interested in discussing how ethical decision making (or the lack thereof) in business and government affects the individual and society.

Robert Whitlock's blog
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Another vegetarian meal tonight

Submitted by Mike on Wed, 01/23/2008 - 9:52pm.

eating low on the food chain. Looking to keep my feet on that path with heart. Ethical decision making starts right where you are, here and now.

Hmm

Submitted by security_six on Wed, 01/23/2008 - 10:11pm.

You got me thinking. I see an implication that vegetarian meals are "ethical" choices. First I propose that "ethics" depends greatly on an individual's world views. I had meat with my dinner and while I probably should have had more salad and less meat, I personally do not find anything "unethical" with my choices.

Now I do not care to debate meat vs veggies, it is all the same to me.

What I do care to debate is what constitutes "ethics".

My ethics tell me a lot of things. I try very hard to purchase and eat meat raised in a manner I consider proper. I do not approve of the factory system for meat production. My ethics tell me the War in Iraq is bad, but also tell me that throwing a huge protest over the return of military equipment and trying to block it is also bad. Again, I'm not going to argue my beliefs here.

My ethics tell me I may kill another human being in self defense or in defense of another if doing so will keep me or another innocent alive.

So what happens when you have conflicting ethics? I eat meat. Others do not. Ultimately it is a question of if MY ethics infringe on YOUR human rights. Eating meat may be disturbing to some, but does not infringe on another's rights. Shooting someone in self defense greatly infringes on that person's rights, but when their rights and mine conflict, I choose the rights of the victim over an attacker. When my rights and your rights conflict choose the least damage to innocents.

Actually I don't believe in human rights. I believe in a human Right. And that Right is to attempt to live. NOT to live, but try to, there are no firm promises in nature except death. In trying to live, one has the right to protect that life. They have the right to worship whatever higher power they see fit, to associate as they see fit, to eat, think, choose leaders, etc.. as they see fit.

There is to me only on ethic ultimately as there is one right. To try and live, and to make choices that do not damage that for me or others. If I am doing something that limits another's right to attempt to live I will try and change it.

Now some may argue that US culture is greatly damaging the rest of the world, and you are probably right. I for one am doing what I can, and probably can find more ways to infringe on the rights of others to try and live. OTOH I cannot and will not bear responsibility for the actions of others in my own culture. I will try and point out the errors of their ways as I see fit, and hope for the best.

I'm probably rambling a bit, but ultimately I think I made my point.

"It's okay to be armed"

security_six's social contract

culture, meat, global impact

Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Wed, 01/23/2008 - 10:18pm.

Okay. I eat meat too. (But no where near as much as I used to.) I like the taste. And once in a while I indulge.

However. What if a culture of eating meat - say those who eat meat at every meal, every day, in large quantities (way more than is necessary or healthy) - is contributing to environmental destruction?

What if my meat consumption is contributing to or enabling the larger culture of meat eating? If that culture is having a destructive impact, does it mean that my consumption is unethical? Is there a threshold of ethical consumption?

The "meat industry" is having harmful impacts on the environment. There are dead zones in the oceans. It's a real phenomenon.

Try this

Submitted by security_six on Wed, 01/23/2008 - 10:23pm.

"Is there a threshold of ethical consumption? "

Whatever you are comfortable with as an individual knowing what damage may or may not be done by your choices.

I was disapointed I did not get a chance to go hunting last fall. The idea harvesting my own meat is very appealing. I would think that through personal hunting/fishing and choosing meat products locally and humanely raised, one could eat as much of the stuff as they felt like. Factory farmed crap meat? Whatever you felt was fair and just to your own value system. Some will eat as much as they can, others will dig carrots. Ultimately the more people make informed choices, the more things will balance out.

"It's okay to be armed"

security_six's social contract

I think that eating high on the food chain requires

Submitted by Mike on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 8:17am.

that other living beings be killed or die so that I can eat high on the food chain. The population issues, questions about how many people the planet can support, change dramatically when you tinker with the differences between a vegetarian diet and a predominately meat/flesh diet.

I think that as an ethical consideration, if my life choices require that other beings die for my appetite or convenience, then I have made an unethical choice.

I eat less and less meat for many reasons, many of the reasons being ethical considerations. You can be defensive if you choose, but I am not projecting my ethics on you, I am describing where my ethical concerns begin, with my diet and consumption practices.

What is ethical?

Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Wed, 01/23/2008 - 10:03pm.

Is it ethical to do harm to another being in order to achieve personal gain?

Perhaps it would be good to start with a list: What is ethical v. What is unethical

okay...I'll start.

Ethical: honesty, telling the truth, playing fair, moral, righteous...

Unethical: dishonesty, lying, being deceitful, cheating, corruption, immoral, evil...

I suppose it depends

Submitted by Norm on Wed, 01/23/2008 - 10:50pm.

I love the thread by the way, and your first question in this post is pretty loaded.

I think, ethically, that we can harm another being, in order to achieve personal gain, if we do so respectfully. The question of commercial fishing, for instance, makes me think that we probably need better regulation, and certainly the cooperation of the rest of the world. Kill what you need, eat what you kill, don't over-consume. Oh, and seriously, if you care about the planet, quit having tons of kids.

I like

Submitted by security_six on Wed, 01/23/2008 - 11:03pm.

What you said about kids. I see folks with a small herd of kids tagging along, they are usually rowdy and often times the parents do not seem too well endowed in the "smarts" department. Why people have to pop out bunches of kids is beyond me. I think at best every person should duplicate themselves. One person, one kid. So a couple has two kids. Get divorced? If one spouse has already reproduced and the other hasn't, have ONE more. Both already reproduced? Darn, no more for you.

Same thing goes if you don't like something about your kid. Male, female, disabled, whatever. You had your chance, you rolled the dice. Quit BREEDING.

Harsh? Sure. OTOH, this should be purely VOLUNTARY. Clearly this mindset will not work for all. I for one plan to never take part in the creation of a child. Too many kids need adoption, find a kid already in existance instead of making another. To me reproduction can have some of the most selfish goals in mind, and some of the most noble. People who spend a fortune at fertility clinics sicken me...

Anyway I'm bound to hijack this thread if I keep going. Sorry.

"I've been around the world and found that only stupid people are breeding. The cretins cloning and feeding..." --Harvey Danger, Flagpole Sitta

Hey...

Submitted by The Original Yoda on Wed, 01/23/2008 - 10:52pm.

...this sounds like the begining to Plato's Republic.

That which is good, pleases the Gods and that which is bad, displeases them...or something like that.

For me, on some of these ethical questions, I usually feel conflicted. For example, I personally believe that it is best to be a vegetarian. I was able to embody vegetarianism for awhile but have since gotten sucked back into meat. I'm not preaching a veggie lifestyle so it's not like I am a hypocrite for this.

Sometimes, it's simple to do the ethical thing. Sometimes, not so much...

Tomorrow's another day and I will stive to eat to my fullest potential.

consumption v. production

Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 9:34am.

So far, we have been discussing the ethics of consumption. I think it is important to behave ethically as a consumer, especially when there is such a marked lack of ethics in so many business and government activities.

The application of ethical principles is certainly not limited to the end of the chain consumer. Ethics also apply to business and government. It is at least as important for those who research, develop and manufacture products, or those who provide services (or in the case of government, develop and execute policy) to behave in a consistent ethical manner.

For example, is it ethical for a mobile phone company to develop a technology that requires a rare mineral, coltan. The export and mining of the ore has fueled war in Africa, which has resulted in millions of deaths(ref. wikipedia "Coltan"). Is that ethical to produce and market a product under those conditions? Shouldn't government require the sellers to put a warning label on the product: Danger this product used child labor, destructive environmental practices, and fueled a war that killed millions of people as a result of its manufacture?

How about putting a warning on your local gas pump. Warning, demand for oil is fueling the war in Iraq, which has resulted in the deaths and the suffering of millions of people...

Take another example, nuclear weapons. The designers of the atomic blast realized the destructive potential that the development of nuclear technology would unleash. They went ahead with it anyway - for presumably altruistic reasons. But what about those in government who were willing to detonate a nuclear devices, not once but twice, over densely populated urban centers.

The Japanese were in no danger of winning the war, or threatening attack on the North American Continent. The Japanese imperial quest was finished. But two nuclear devices were exploded, nonetheless, in a show of unnecessary and excessive force. Yes, it discouraged the Russians from sharing in the spoils of a defeated Japan. But it also encouraged the Russians to begin the development of their own nuclear technology in earnest. ...And so was born the cold war and the proliferation of some of the worst weapons known.

I could go on. And I know that others of you could go on and on more than me.

Ethical behavior is not limited to the consumption/demand side of the equation. It is also applicable to the production/supply side of matters. and government too

Ethics of sponsorship.

Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 10:27am.

There is an organized movement to strip hate-radio’s Michal Savage of his sponsors by reminding those sponsors that the Savage message is a greatly flawed product. Once the sponsors are informed of the content of his radio shows they are burdened with the ethical choice of continuing to buy access to the Savage listening audience or do what is right. Happy to say, sponsors are listening. Some will cry censorship of course. But they fail to recognize that this is simply their free market at its best. In the market place of ideas, people are learning that Savage is a lemon…or a just Weiner.

Is a carrot not a being that ceases to exist when you cook it?

Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 10:49am.

Should lions and tigers and bears become vegetarian? This ethical argument for vegetarianism loses me quickly, humans have eaten meat since our knuckles were dragging on the ground. How is it all of a sudden now an ethical decision whether we eat meat or not? I really don't get it. I eat some meat, not a lot, I eat a meat alternatives a lot of the time when I have the choice, less now because soy products sketch me out. I try to eat meat from local sources in order to keep my footprint small, but you'll be hard pressed to convince me that the reason humans shouldn't eat meat is an ethical one.

I understand why many people have ethical problems with

Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 11:04am.

eating meat...things with eyes. I don't, but I still get creeped out when I walk past the live lobster tank at Albertsons. I put myself in their place and wonder what it would feel like if I was in a little pen at a grocery store for man-eating Ogres. Projection. My ethical concerns are mostly about how meat is produced and harvested.

And, Rob, bears are mostly vegetarian.

They lot's of fish.

Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 11:08am.

and know-it-alls.

Yeah,

Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 11:35am.

I can out Cliff, Cliff Clavin sometimes. Maybe I should be fitted with an electric collar too.

I love that show.

Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 5:19pm.

It's a great show, but I'm more of a Norm fan than Cliff

Submitted by Norm on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 5:31pm.

It's not just the matter of eyes, or eating things with a face,

Submitted by Mike on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 10:03pm.

one of the kids told me recently that they don't eat anything that casts a shadow. I am still trying to absorb that one.

So, since we have been eating meat forever, why should it become an ethical issue to reduce or stop eating meat?

Hmm... let me think. Well, human beings have been brutally killing each other since we started dragging our knuckles, who decided that making a change toward a culture, a way of being human, that criminalized the killing of other human beings was an ethical undertaking?

Evolution, and especially cultural evolution, comes in small incremental steps and there is little question that most folks alive on the planet are not engaged in thinking through the ethical considerations of eating lower on the food chain (even so low on the food chain that no shadow is cast?), but the fact that so many folks don't understand the ethics of eating low on the food chain does not mean the ethics of that practice don't exist.

Here's a post regarding the footprint of eating veggies instead of meat and I had chomped down a whole bunch of broccoli tonight, shadow and all. No question that the broccoli was alive at one time, but broccoli and I are now one.

Jolinda Hackett's Vegetarian Food Blog

From Jolinda Hackett,
Your Guide to Vegetarian Food.
FREE Newsletter. Sign Up Now!

This Earth Day, Go Green by Going Veg

A new study by researchers at the University of Chicago shows that a vegetarian diet can do more to reduce your planetary footprint than driving a hybrid car. In an interview, Professor Gidon Eshel, a geophysicist and oceanographer states, "the less animal-based food you eat, and the more you replace those calories with plant-based food, the better off you are, in terms of your health as well as your contributions to the health of the planet". I had the honor of working with Gidon as a student many moons ago and can tell you that he really practices what he preaches!

How else does vegetarianism benefit the environment? Read on to find out, then celebrate Earth Day by adopting a vegetarian diet - for the day or for life!

you'll be hard pressed to

Submitted by Chia on Sun, 01/27/2008 - 5:59am.

you'll be hard pressed to convince me that the reason humans shouldn't eat meat is an ethical one

This makes it seem as if you're closed to change rather than open to the possibility of discovering another way to express compassion in the world. I'm feeling doubt that offering information to someone who has already built a wall is effective use of my time and energy as an activist. Can you understand why I might feel that way?

---------
Nonviolence Includes Animals:
audio
"PETA President Ingrid E. Newkirk's address to the International Nonviolence Conference in Bethlehem"

How about a Robert F. Kenney quote?

Submitted by Mike on Sun, 01/27/2008 - 10:05am.

Some men see things as they are and say why? I dream of things that never were, and say why not?

we are hard-pressed to persuade folks to think of things that have never were and think why not. It has been that way since we started walking upright and dragging our knuckles. It is still important work and I am very pleased to have a fellow dreamer here.

I drop out of this discussion from time to time because it becomes oppressive to run into folks who think they are being reasonable when they are really just modeling the behavior that mainstream culture expects from them.

I am close to the drop-out point again. I am thinking of zebras.

Continuing with my Ethics of Sponsorship rant

Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 6:00pm.

Fox's John Gibson produced a particularly inhuman, mocking response to the news of Heath Ledger's death. GLAAD is requesting that folks contact Fox News to tell them how they feel about their "business" practices.

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