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Submitted by Rick on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 8:40am.
From the Geoduck Student Union website: At Wednesday's Geoduck Student Union meeting, students voiced concern about the lack of information available to the public about the Valentine's Day riot. They told the Union that it is difficult to talk about solutions when the facts are still unclear. Following yesterday's forum, a video of the riot was shown to us, and we feel that it is our responsibility to make it available to our fellow students. The administration already has this video, the police already have this video, and the student body must have this video. This is a clip from longer video footage. Our anonymous sources have given us permission to circulate it. We are circulating it because we want to promote positive dialogue on campus, because we need to heal our community, and if we are going to heal our community everyone needs to know how an act of solidarity turned into an act of violence. Part II | |
Thanks
Submitted by Dylan Carlson on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 9:47am.Unbelievable
Submitted by Ehver Green on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 10:17am.Police go home? Maybe you should try acting your age (and no, I don't buy into the "they're in their 20's" line of bullshit) so the police don't have an open invite to babysit you. Funny how the voices on the video find fault in the police actions but never address what is f*cked up about throwing objects, including big sticks, at police officers. And the foolish little girl who was taunting a police officer behind his back within inches of him, well, is damn lucky she didn't get knocked back a few feet.
Thanks for sharing these videos. I wonder if the people you can hear on the recordings actually listened to themselves. Their commentary was absolutely horrible.
And no, there's no badge of honor for pepper-spraying someone. Think of it like a spanking but for grown-ups who don't know how to listen or choose not to listen because they are just too advanced for authority. Puhlease... will the sea level rise swallow TESC? One can only hope.
Good call
Submitted by Norm on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 10:51am.Taunting is human nature.
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 11:03am.As you so readily demonstrate. And, fortunately, good cops are able put up with it. So sorry you didn't get to see the "little girl" get knocked around. There's plenty of that on Youtube though.
Thanks for posting this Rick. Good to see things instead of relying on word of mouth. Looks like the OPD contingent really ramped things up a bit.
Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
Did I say that's what I
Submitted by Ehver Green on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 11:14am.Did I say that's what I wanted to see? Don't be so damn defensive. It's OK to admit when people are wrong.
Defensive. Yeah, that's what I am.
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 11:33am.What's wrong is knocking people around because of what they say. For you to say the girl was "damn lucky" clearly implies that you think the cop is entitled to knock her around. Sorry you didn't get to see a demonstration of that entitlement.
I honestly cannot characterize the naughty talk of the demonstrators as wrong. Throwing things is wrong. Violence is wrong. But not naughty talk.
Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
Not to speak for Ehver, but
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 11:56am.If I flip someone off and they break my finger I should've expected it, even though the violent reaction would've been wrong.
“I urge people not to cooperate with police”
Peter Bohmer, Evergreen Professor
Correct.
Submitted by Ehver Green on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 12:01pm.We clearly differ regarding the restaint
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 12:29pm.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
I think you're misreading
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 12:40pm.Violence is wrong; self-defence is right but it needs to be in proper proportion to the threat.
This isn't about "blaming a victim" but a person should expect to be burned if they jump in the middle of a fire. A better example is my previous one about "breaking the bird". It's not excuses, it's explanations.
I expect Law Enforcement to use restraint and only push as necessary. If someone calls a cop a pig in the heat of that moment and gets cracked on the head, I'd be accepting that the cop went too far but at the same time I'd have to wonder what the other guy expected.
“I urge people not to cooperate with police”
Peter Bohmer, Evergreen Professor
It serves no constructive
Submitted by Ehver Green on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 12:01pm.It serves no constructive purpose and can influence individuals who would otherwise stay out of harms way which only adds to chaos.
Face it, these folks were wrong in every sense of the word and you just can't find a good way to defend their actions. Why? Because there is absolutely no defense.
Clearly implies? C'mon, you're smarter than that. At that point in time the officer had every right to create distance and remove himself from a volitale situation without me wanting to see it.
This isn't going anywhere so it's my last post on the subject. We'll let the powers that be decide the punishment, should there be any.
I completely agree with
Submitted by seanparkerfilms on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 3:17pm.You're Right
Submitted by Ehver Green on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 6:01pm.First, welcome to Olyblog! Secondly, I don't really want the school to be swallowed by sea-level rise. I said it sort of tongue-in-cheek and didn't follow my own pet peeve of highlighting out of band comments (like I did below with a noseless smiley face).
Sean, I apologize to you personally and didn't mean for it to be taken literally. Rick (he established this blog) teaches there ya know and I sort of like Rick, kinda. =)
Well,
Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 10:39am.These weren't regular people walking down the street, it was a crowd of people riding a big high of adrenaline, fear, and anger. Not saying that's an excuse, but I also don't think being so harsh with them is going to resolve anything either.
Those individuals on video
Submitted by Ehver Green on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 10:49am.Those individuals on video who can be identified as having committed a crime should be charged. I don't think that's too harsh.
In the second video the male voice on the recording gets snarky with the cops as they approach a small crowd:
What he didn't realize is, THEY CAN SEE YOU!
What I see is a bunch of...
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 12:08pm.People who make change in this world DO get those things.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 5:19pm.I'm not saying anything about the specifics of this event, I'm on the fence about the whole thing, I think we should listen to all sides before we judge.
Oooh Oooh!!
Submitted by security_six on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 9:12pm.I haven't been hit with a baton or pepper sprayed or been arrested! And I am pretty dang sure I have changed some of the system. Ask Meta she and I were talking about it the other day. Intercity Transit has changed some policies, and I'll bet dollars to donuts OPD has, or will come around Monday when my lawyer's letter gets there.
Oh wait none of this working in the system counts. I'm white. I'm male. Dang. Mr. Uber-Empowered, that's me.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
Wow, that video is great
Submitted by Norm on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 12:06pm.Learning...
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 12:23pm.Most of these discussions break down into rather fruitless and often acrimonious debates about who is to blame. What is more relevant to me what we learn from these events and how we use that knowledge to reduce harm in the future without stomping on civil rights. While it would be nice if people didn’t cause problems, there really isn’t much I can do about it. Laws are broken and prosecutors will do their jobs. The end result is that some people might think twice about misbehaving in the future. Fine. Dandy even. But other than that, I cannot think of viable policy options to force people behave.
We do, however, have considerable control over our law enforcement. These events provide an opportunity to critically review the tactics of our law enforcement officers and to identify areas for improvement. While it might have made perfect sense, given their training, for the officers from OPD to wade (somewhat violently) into the crowd around the car, did it result in the most desirable outcome? I don’t think so. Defending the police and blaming the crowd is an understandable reaction, but it ignores the side of the equation over which we have the greatest legal control. It is not “anti-cop” to acknowledge opportunities for quality improvement, and this is one. If my admitting people acted improperly makes it easier for you to join in on that conversation, then yes. They did.
Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
Nice but...
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 1:42pm.The president Perce I think his name is, has already stated that the college will pay for the damaged caused. The college is not responsible, although I see that it is a gesture of good will to make that payment. So...
You claim the prosecutors will do their job. I say the police and the prosecutors will not do their jobs. I will be surprised if anyone is A) charged, B) if they are charged they will not be let off with some kind a soft plea deal C) They will not serve any time in jail or be forced by the court to pay for the damages. The system will fail, and the implication is that it does not put one in legal peril to behave this way.
So if we don't hold people accountable for their actions, or if and when we do we treat adults like children who misbehaved, the messages sent is that you can either get away with it, or suffer the pat on the wrist as a finger wagging admonishment. In the future we will have this again, is the long term result.
You want to review the police? Great knock yourself out. Nothing but a softening of rules for the police to act will come of it. More rules for them to enforce the law, and a great big waste of money. And for what? Because we are as a society unable to expect that people obey the law, allow officers to do their duty with out interference, and be working under a microscope with people who resent them making judgments? Yeah that sounds like a fantastic idea.
When the police are treated as criminals, or the element that instigated this situation or the Port situation, the knock on effect is to enable those who are breaking the law. This is backwards to any clear thinking individual and not helpful to society in general.
TESC should be working with the police and the justice system to find the people who are guilty, and toss them out of school until they have made due restitution to the Sherriff’s office. If jail is on the cards they should serve their time before being permitted back to school. If some were not students the college and its students should be helping identify those who were involved and clearing the name of TESC and its students, keeping what little reputation it has above reproach.
All of this will help us to have a city and county that we can be proud of, live freely with out worry of violence, and it will allow the police to do their job in a place they know they will not be under attack.
C.
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
Certainly
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 1:53pm.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
Reconcile something for me.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 5:22pm.Gug says,
Submitted by JT on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 12:24pm."Looks like the OPD contingent really ramped things up a bit."
The "OPD contingent" did their job. They went in and rescued other officers who were victims of a felonious act. The OPD officers should be commended for bravery! They took action against an out of control mob, and did so very well at great risk to their personal safety and with limited injury to the rioters.
The crowd acted without legal authority, and likely made their decisions to act as they did fueled by alcohol and following the educational leadership from TESC(if you can call it leadership) of the likes of Bohmer, and others. The members of the band certainly primed the pump pretty effectively as well.
The crowd should be glad the force used against them was only pepper spray and batons. The dynamics at that riot allowed for any force to be used, including deadly force. So when you understand that's what could have happened, OPD clearly took a low level of action.
No matter if the science is all phony, there are collateral environmental benefits. Climate change provides the greatest chance to bring about justice and equality in the world ever.Christine Stewart (the real basis for the AGW scare)
The "OPD contingent" did
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 1:40pm.Thank you, thank you, thank you.
As I said before, when you're "rolling up" to a call of a crowd surrounding a police car and a couple of cops, it's not going to be "Happy Fun Time."
Does anyone remember the cops in Demolition Man? I think that's what a lot of people would like to see out of law enforcement.
JT, I generally agree with almost everything you said
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 2:43pm.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
What JT said...
Submitted by security_six on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 9:15pm.I think they showed a lot of restraint. It would have been quite proper at times to hand out some small lead pills as medication.
I'll cry foul on cops when I see it, and this is not it.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
It seems to me...
Submitted by Rick on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 2:13pm....that by violently dispersing the crowd, instead of using other techniques (asking, for example), they endangered themselves more, as well as the protesters.
Guglielmo is right, crowds are crowds, whether they are crowds at TESC, downtown, or anywhere. The dynamics of crowds are well-known, and escalating violence is usually not indicated. But I can easily picture an alternate universe in which the cops pulled up at the edge of the crowd, broke out the bullhorn, asked for people to back away from the car, choose three representative who could communicate concerns, and initiated a conversation. End of story. Everyone gets heard, nobody gets hurt, nothing gets broken. Why isn't that a better approach?
Now, if officers were feeling protective of another officer and over-reacted, I can understand that. But that doesn't seem to be what EG, MH, JT, Tschida et al. are saying. I'd like to know why negotiation is not preferable to force in the situation depicted here. Could someone explain that?
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Wah
Submitted by security_six on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 9:19pm.When a riot is taking place, when emergency vehicles are getting destroyed, when people are grabbing at officer's weapons there is no time for haggling with the crowd. They have already shown themselves to be out of control and a public danger. You take steps to end that public danger.
Maybe you should move to England. I read of a case where a person was attacked and raped, and later died while waiting for medical attention. The cops wouldn't let medics in because the area wasn't considered "safe enough for police" and the victim died. Is that the sort of police work you want?
LOL
I can see your "other world" "Excuse us, rioters. Excuse us. Umm, would you guys maybe mind quit breaking the law, committing felonies and destroying public property? Don't make us ummm ask again! We might get angry!"
When in danger sometimes the only proper response is swift and rapid.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
Most of this comment...
Submitted by Rick on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 9:36pm....is not very helpful, nor does it seem intended to be.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Do tell...
Submitted by security_six on Fri, 02/22/2008 - 9:52pm.Second paragraph isn't meant to be too helpful, but a reminder of what happens when too many bleeding hearts take control of the police.
Everyting else. Eh. Take it how you will, with whatever slant you wish to apply. This late in the game I'm sure not to change your opinion of it.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
Six
Submitted by Guglielmo on Sat, 02/23/2008 - 8:27am.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
Don't listen to rado
Submitted by security_six on Sat, 02/23/2008 - 10:06am.Crappy week so far at work, and really didn't have patience for Rick's marginalization. If I had a couple of drinks probably would have mellowed some....
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
Who's doing the marginalizing?
Submitted by Rick on Sat, 02/23/2008 - 11:05am.It's comments like, "Maybe you should move to England," and "LOL," that are marginalizing, not my pointing it out to you.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
If I was marginalizing
Submitted by security_six on Sat, 02/23/2008 - 11:17am.I would make that very plain. Rather I used the time honored tradition of sarcasm to make a point.
At any rate if you do want a neutered police force look no further than England and the damage it does.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
Why do you think that?
Submitted by Rick on Sat, 02/23/2008 - 11:42am.- Assaults:
- Robberies:
Seems like the two countries are pretty comparable, except when it comes to...US = 7.56 per 1,000 people
UK = 7.45 per 1,000 people
US = 1.38 per 1,000 people
UK = 1.57 per 1,000 people
US = 0.0428 per 1,000 people
UK = 0.0140 per 1,000 people
US = 0.0279 per 1,000 people
UK = 0.0010 per 1,000 people
Source: NationMaster.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
So Rick,
Submitted by JT on Sat, 02/23/2008 - 8:59pm.if you get killed with a firearm, or getting your head sawed off with a butter knife, does it really matter? Dead is dead.
No matter if the science is all phony, there are collateral environmental benefits. Climate change provides the greatest chance to bring about justice and equality in the world ever.Christine Stewart (the real basis for the AGW scare)
So when are you going?
Submitted by security_six on Sat, 02/23/2008 - 9:11pm.The murder rate is lower, but only by not by a huge margin. A more stable society can account for some of that. I do not think England has the same population in flux like we do.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
So then you'll be retracting...
Submitted by Rick on Sat, 02/23/2008 - 9:43pm....your statement about "chaos?"
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
I don't recall using that word in this topic of conversation.
Submitted by security_six on Sat, 02/23/2008 - 9:54pm."Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
You're right...
Submitted by Rick on Sat, 02/23/2008 - 10:29pm....here's what you said:
Would you like to reconsider that approach?
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Nope
Submitted by security_six on Sat, 02/23/2008 - 11:03pm.Although in the interests of intellectual honesty you should point out that I did not say that in this conversation.
Quite frankly england has neutered it's police, and neutered it's citizens. I have seen plenty of horror stories about modern day england and her citizens being victimized.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
The plural if "anecdote"...
Submitted by Rick on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 12:17am....is not "data." Statistics tell the story that personal experience can't.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Well
Submitted by security_six on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 12:23am.I figure given recent allegations of OPD misconduct I am due a free pass for anecdotes. I'm not up to the trouble of digging up horror stories of crime in england or actions of the police. I'll get around to do it, but it is somewhere on the priority list between bottom paint formulas and what brand of powder works best in a 7.62x54r cartridge used for distance target shooting, which is to say, I'll get around to it when it finally matters.
Or when I get freaking bored. Probably tomorow night.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
Wah?
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 11:40pm.When OPD got there,
Submitted by JT on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 2:41pm.the time for talking was over. Crimes were being committed, fellow officers were in a bad situation. Clearly the crowd wasn't in a talking mood, they were in a demanding mood. If they wanted to talk about the incident they could have allowed the TESC officer to make her arrest and debate or complain the next day if they thought she screwed up.
This wasn't one of your classes Rick, where we all get to sit around and discuss the ways of the world.
And remember it wasn't OPD that caused the problem.
No matter if the science is all phony, there are collateral environmental benefits. Climate change provides the greatest chance to bring about justice and equality in the world ever.Christine Stewart (the real basis for the AGW scare)
It depends on which problem we're talking about?
Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 6:21pm.Interesting Rob,
Submitted by JT on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 6:33pm.when did you become such a guru on police procedures? I thought you gave up watching re-runs of Adam 12 ;-). Also, if OPD has it so wrong, why are they now being visited and contacted by LE agenies from all over the state as to how to conduct business with crowds/riots??
The protestors are in complete control over their tensions. If they really want to know how to reduce their tensions, watch some of these videos available, and "don't do that any more!"
No matter if the science is all phony, there are collateral environmental benefits. Climate change provides the greatest chance to bring about justice and equality in the world ever.Christine Stewart (the real basis for the AGW scare)
Adam 12?
Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 8:05pm.If you and I are in an argument face to face a fight won't happen until one of us starts it. That happens by a poke to the chest or a bump or a shove or a fist, you know what I'm saying. In my opinion, had the OPD not instigated violence, both the port and V Day would have turned out different.
To answer your question, I don't know, because I think there are going to be some lawsuits that are going to cost the city some money and other cities probably shouldn't use the same tactics. Just my opinion.
I think we can all agree that violence is the last thing we want. I can't imagine that you or most of your coworkers enjoy inflicting pain on your neighbors, especially on people young enough to be some of your sons and daughters (grandkids in your case of course).I believe that in order to avoid further escalation (V day was escalation from both sides in my opinion) we need to open some doors and communicate. We need to know where one another are coming from so that when a protest happens, or even a C.D., neither the police nor the protesters will be dealt any surprises. Community and communication obviously go together and neither side of this are going to be leaving this community any time soon, so we are going to have to find some common ground and build on it.
So it wasn't an implication
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 11:22pm.“I urge people not to cooperate with police”
Peter Bohmer, POS Evergreen Professor
Rob, Your Claim is False!
Submitted by Jeff Brigham on Fri, 02/22/2008 - 12:00am.Rob, your claim that the Olympia Police used a "violence first methodology" at the Port of Olympia last year is totally false. The Olympia Police DID NOT use a "violence first methodology". I was down there on six separate days/nights. I personally witnessed the Police give repeated verbal orders to clear the street BEFORE force was used. The Police showed admirable patience, discipline, and self-control.
If those rioters did not want to "themselves be beaten and gassed over and over", then they should have cleared the streets when the police ordered them to do so. They were always given ample opportunity to clear the street and allow lawful traffic to pass. They have no one to blame but themselves.
The "various community and activists groups" that you speak of need to learn that their political beliefs do not provide justification for the violations of the rights of their fellow citizens. They need to learn to respect the rights of their fellow citizens, follow the lawful orders of police officers, and stop blocking public streets from lawful traffic. Until they do, the Police are justified in using the force needed to enforce the law and keep public streets open to lawful traffic.
Jeff Brigham
How could the OPD have done a better job?
Submitted by Norm on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 2:49pm.I seriously don't see it. This is not a situation for negotiation. If it were 3 people sitting in front of a squad car....sure. A crowd completely enveloping a squad car? It's time for gas, batons and those nifty bean-bag guns. How do you get a consensus with a crowd like that? WHAT is there to negotiate? You are breaking the law, and you are not moving when told that you are breaking the law. You are putting multiple lives in danger, including your own, and communication has failed: Time to use force. The fact that this is being argued feels incredibly ridiculous to me. Have you all been drinking Bohmers kool-aid?
Whoa
Submitted by Sarah on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 3:31pm.Have you all been drinking Bohmers kool-aid?
Whoa, I just have to say, I find this offensive. To my mind, this language only pours fuel on the fires of miscommunication.
And what would you say to
Submitted by Ehver Green on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 6:06pm.I don't like those either
Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 02/22/2008 - 10:58am.My opinion:
On Peter Bohmer:
He isn't the devil. He's been a lightning rod lately, he has been before, some of this is because of scapegoating, some cause of his behavior. He can be a great teacher and community minded person.
I support academic freedom.
That said, I would like older folks in activist groups to think a million times before being seen to encourage the younger ones to take risky actions. Otherwise it is all just more unhelpful rhetoric.
Community activism work can be messy work, we learn on the job, and hopefully learn from experience.
For me personally, if someone is encouraging me to not cooperate with the police, I'd want to know if they are gonna pay my bail, support me the whole way, somehow make sure I'm not going to get hurt, even take my rap for me and deal with consequences......in other words it ain't happening. I'm all for education and discussion. But I want to steer clear of mob mentality.
On events that night in general:
I wasn't there. Drunken riots happen at colleges. Sounds like many people in many roles made mistakes.
On TESC:
TESC isn't the devil, really, it isn't.
On discussions lately on OlyBlog:
I believe extremism of any flavor is not helpful. Nor is scapegoating.
On Norm's comment:
I understand that he is feeling frustrated. This situation and discussion of it is frustrating for most of us, understandable. I happen to be a person who is interested in the message-in-the-message. Because sometimes in communication we are all talking at cross purposes. If we, including myself, can lower the heat and not make swipes at each other, might be easier to talk.
RE Pete Bohmer
Submitted by Phil Owen on Fri, 02/22/2008 - 11:34am.Thanks for your thoughtfulness, Sarah. I wish we all (myself certainly included) were a bit more like you.
I like Peter. He is a very charismatic and very likeable guy. He smiles all the time, and is remarkably friendly. He does seem to show a crackpot tendency at times (isn't that a hallmark of the academic profession, though?), which is where the "lightning rod" thing comes from. I'm more than willing to overlook some eccentricities owing to Peter's very clear commitment to our community; he does some great work and motivates a lot of other people to do the same.
I am concerned with what appears to be an escalating antagonism and growing sense of justification for misbehavior among a certain small group of activists. These folks are getting a lot of attention, which fuels the behavior imho. Their behavior reflects on a much broader community than they are actually a part of, discouraging participation in the peace movement and encouraging voters to prefer more conservative candidates for local office (the warship issue really drove the last election). I don't think they have a sense of how destructive their actions really are to their own causes, but I don't think they would be deterred even if they did know.
This is really frustrating to observe. It's like watching a program (along the lines of Cointelpro) being carried out among radicals, except that it's the radicals doing it to themselves. I think the rest of us activists have a responsibility to step in and engage with this crowd, to try and moderate some of the angst. If we don't, we might very well watch our own projects go down in flames as we get associated with this crowd by the rest of the community. The trouble is, I don't know where to even start. I tried showing up to the community discussion on the Port protests, and got a sense that some folks will not be reasoned with. I just don't know.
The Canaanite's Call
I admit, the comment wasn't my best form
Submitted by Norm on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 6:10pm.I think it presented a point though. His line of thinking is so deep into left field that the stadium lights don't hit him. Again, I'm stunned by some of the responses here, some of the responses from the students, and Mr. Bohmers as well. VERY stunned.
Thanks for giving it a second thought Norm.
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 3:53pm.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
Police started it, they should pay, background to clarify video.
Submitted by wildleaf on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 2:50pm.The video makes it clear that the Olympia Police Department came in to the crowd hitting and pepper spraying when the conflict was peacefully being resolved. This coincides with what I saw first hand and our officer’s statement at the forum. The original four Thurston County cops supporting our own Evergreen officer where in the middle of peaceably letting the cuffed suspect go after obtaining his information. It seems later in the video that at least one of those original officers was surprised and dismayed that Olympian officers barged in. That makes sense because the Thurston police seemed patient with the demonstrators and said that he should be released.
There was a lack of coordination between the Thurston police and the Olympian police when the conflict was close to a peaceful resolution. The Olympian police acted without an understanding of where the negotiations were. They therefore skipped quickly up the response chain while the previous officers there the whole time showed less worry. This makes sense when you realize that they had been there for an hour and a half with out an escalation by them or the crowd. Olympian Police were there for two seconds before they decided to escalate the violence.
Congratulations to the Geoduck Student Union for backing up the student’s claims. I stand corrected on my earlier statements, it takes guts to break from the administration and shame them for not providing the students with important information.
Art Constantino, vice president, cannot ignore the Olympia Police Department’s role as continued provokers and distillers of violence against our community. Students have a right to be angry that this aspect was not shown in the media. The police actions need to be faced, and the officers who came in swinging need to be identified and face punishment. They seemed to act independently of the officers who were in charge of the situation thereby endangering everyone involved. That is sloppy dangerous police work and I don’t think it meets their standards of protocol.
The Black Car Project http://autovoid.blogspot.com
Sorry,
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 3:30pm.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
This left me speechless.
Submitted by OperaGirl on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 3:01pm.This left me speechless. I am not sure how anyone can defend the actions of the crowd but to each his own. I didn't see anyone fighting for justice or standing up for what's right ~ I just saw a bunch of people running around like animals screaming "fuck the police" and overturning cop cars. And if people think that it is okay to act like that then fine. Just don't whine when you have to face the consequences. I mean, was anyone really surprised that they were pepper sprayed? Come on!
Music is the mediator between the spiritual and the sensual life. ~Ludwig van Beethoven
Every time I watch this
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 3:37pm.Every time I watch this video, I think of an interview with the former Alameda County (CA) Sheriff when he was retiring a few years ago. The newspaper asked what his biggest regret was throughout the decades he had been in law enforcement and he said - when he was a young deputy - not swinging harder during the Berkeley riots in the '70s.
I don't think many people are going to change their mind after watching the video, either. I know it only confirmed everything I already thought and - if there was a "do over" - the same response should happen. It's not the job of law enforcement to cater to the mob.
fun thoughts?
Submitted by chad360 on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 3:40pm.Interesting...
...guy certainly has a point of view down there in CA, but seriously, where are you (TFI) on the "use-of-force"?
I'd always assumed that if I could "use force effectively" that I didn't need to--
--and that unless the "odds are equal" only folks with "problems" take it out on others.
Am I missing something?
where are you (TFI) on the
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 3:48pm.You use the amount of force necessary to gain control of a situation.
For instance, if someone pulls out a knife you don't pull out a baton. You pull out a gun.
If you're in a tactically inferior position - say, 100 of them and 5 of you - you're justified in using deadly force, also.
You do whatever you need to do to ensure you're not the one in an ambulance. And since you can't predict people's exact motives or future actions, you must always assume they're going to do the worst to you and that they have the worst of intentions.
Swing harder. Cute.
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 4:03pm.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
So you cannot imagine
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 4:13pm.So you cannot imagine handling this any other way?
I mean this honest-to-God: the only other way I can imagine this going down is with someone being shot. When the deputies and Evergreen officer were surrounded, they would have been justified in doing so.
As the saying goes, "It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6." I'd gladly - video and all - take such a scenario to a jury.
That's what a lot of these kids don't realize. This isn't a game where everyone just goes home after it's over and has a laugh about it and talks about it in a classroom forum. Someone is going to get killed (and more than likely, be justified in doing so) if this continues.
Students and fellow sympathizers are going to be looking to people like Peter Bohmer asking, What happened?
the law-and-order folks are just circling the wagons
Circling the wagons because this is getting ridiculous. First there's the port protesting and now it's flipping over a police car and people actually think this is ok and try to rationalize it.
I can certainly agree why you'd think it is ridiculous to
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 4:33pm.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
Welcome to the Police
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 4:04pm.Welcome to the Police State.
Get over yourself, buddy. This isn't a Police State. It's not even close.
Let's reevaluate the situation
Yes, let's. The shotgun should have come out earlier.
It's unfortunate that local law enforcement doesn't have more personnel. If this were Los Angeles or any other large municipality, this number of officers and deputies would have been there within minutes.
So does pepper spray have to be used before physical force is used?
And the correct answer is, no! Continuum of force doesn't mean you have to actually go in that order. It's a recommendation of progression so that all people - law enforcement and citizens - have a general idea of what's appropriate, not a rule or law. The individual situation will dictate what level of force is used.
IMHO
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 4:44pm.much like the port protests, this could go on forever & ever and there will never be complete agreement between anybody.
Bottom line, no matter what anybody thinks, ultimately, it's up the college and local police to work out the situation. I seriously doubt any outside influence is or will be welcome or taken into consideration at this point.
I'm sensing that there are more students who are upset about this than students who think this was justified. If so, that certainly says a lot to me about how most of TESC's student body and staff wants to be viewed by the community. I hope that all parties can come to a fair compromise which will prevent a situation like this from ever happening again.
I do not, and will not, agree with Bohmer's stance. TESC is not immune from needing outside police services and I hope his stance isn't the general population opinion of TESC and it's staff.
"A point of view is only a view from a point..." ~ Unknown
I keep hearing asked "what
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 5:01pm.What also needs to be asked is "what could the crowd have done different." And perhaps break it down into The Students, The Security, The Band, The College (in the aftermath) etc.
To lay it all on the police is wrong.
“I urge people not to cooperate with police”
Peter Bohmer, Evergreen Professor
I certainly don't think...
Submitted by Rick on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 5:24pm....the police caused this to happen.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Serious question here
Submitted by Norm on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 6:05pm.The Students. Clearly, the crowd was acting badly. Guglielmo described nicely the difficulty with making crowds of people do anything, especially when the crowd is anonymous.
I think we should look at some actual arguments, not just statements like "Time for talking was over," or "Crimes were being committed."
I think the reason those statements were presented, and partly what I addressed way up there, is because of that bolded statement right there. If officers are coming toward a crowd, and obviously trying to get to their comrade in the patrol car, I think it would present a pretty unruly crowd. As the officer mentioned before, this crowd was obstructing an officer. I have little doubt that the OPD officers were telling people to move, or clear out, and judging from the video, that didn't happen. The exacerbation happend because the crowd didn't want to give up control, but knew it was in the wrong. Had it simply been a car I'm sure the officers would have waited for more troops to arrive. Given that one of their own was in the car her safety, and the safety of her in-custody suspect, were top priority. The crowd was going to be pissed, and confrontational, no matter what the police did.
I think we're talking about after the fact.
Submitted by Rick on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 6:55pm.I do think you can do something when the crowd is together.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
I think the local police would disagree with you
Submitted by Norm on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 11:52am.regarding the crowd in question. Heck though Rick, if you think you could have handled it better maybe you should offer to do some training for them, or maybe apply and go through the academy yourself. You seem to have this all figured out =)
Well do you want to talk about
Submitted by JT on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 5:30pm.crowd control or riot control. Two different animals. Also riot control/crowd control with turtles suits on is different than the same without that equipment.
No matter if the science is all phony, there are collateral environmental benefits. Climate change provides the greatest chance to bring about justice and equality in the world ever.Christine Stewart (the real basis for the AGW scare)
When the posse showed up...
Submitted by Rick on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 5:35pm....I would characterize it as a crowd -- rowdy -- but still a crowd. You don't think it was a riot at that point, do you?
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Oh, man
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 5:42pm.If you guys and gals actually wore honest to God turtle suits that would be so cool. ;-) (One of your guys is a star on Flickr.com now you know.)
Seriously, according to the video the first group of offiicers wading into the crowd were not suited up. Do yo think that's why they took a more virgorous approach to getting to the car? I can imagine it wouldn't be fun to push one's way through that group unprotected.
Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
Dunno,
Submitted by JT on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 5:52pm.I wasn't there. But it likely played on their minds.
No matter if the science is all phony, there are collateral environmental benefits. Climate change provides the greatest chance to bring about justice and equality in the world ever.Christine Stewart (the real basis for the AGW scare)
Ya,
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 6:03pm.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
Fair enough
Submitted by JT on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 6:05pm.n/t
No matter if the science is all phony, there are collateral environmental benefits. Climate change provides the greatest chance to bring about justice and equality in the world ever.Christine Stewart (the real basis for the AGW scare)
The big guy
Submitted by Norm on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 6:07pm.the one who mentioned that everyone was getting pepper-sprayed?
If that is the one you are talking about, that is Dep. Swanson. He's a stand-up guy.
Probably not
Submitted by JT on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 5:50pm.Rick
No matter if the science is all phony, there are collateral environmental benefits. Climate change provides the greatest chance to bring about justice and equality in the world ever.Christine Stewart (the real basis for the AGW scare)
These video "clips" are edited
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 02/22/2008 - 10:01am.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
"Crowd control is done by
Submitted by benny on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 12:09pm.Wow
Submitted by Guglielmo on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 12:32pm.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
He's a politician
Submitted by Norm on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 2:14pm.Well there's a convenient label for everyone I suppose.
Submitted by Guglielmo on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 2:22pm.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
If they fit the bill...sure.
Submitted by Norm on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 2:55pm.nt
Again...The Chief of Police
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 8:41pm.Again...
The Chief of Police - at any department - is not a real cop. Sorry, but he probably hasn't been on an actual patrol and responded to an actual call in a long, long time. He has people to answer to - at Evergreen, I would imagine it is a board or the president of the college; in Olympia, it's the City Council and City Manager - politicians.
Notice you don't see the Supreme Law Enforcement Authority in Thurston County - the Thurston County Sheriff - coming out and making statements about the response his deputies got?
I would be willing to bet he - along with his deputies - are quietly pleased with the response. They know who they can count on.
It wasn't too long ago when the Thurston County Sheriff's Department told the Olympia Police Department they weren't going to "stand-by" every May Day. It was either do something about it or don't even bother calling.
This is what I tried to say before regarding the Los Angeles Police Department: they have to answer to people outside of the law enforcement community who have special interests and certain agendas.
How many people are even aware that the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department has jurisdiction over cities like Compton and Inglewood? When was the last time you saw the LASD in the news?
The sheriff's department has to answer only to the people they respond to: the voters. If they aren't happy, they'll vote the sheriff out.
A voice of reason on a local police agency
Submitted by Mike on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 8:56am.and watch how the police and gun nuts line up to smear the Chief.
He is of course, exactly right. If OPD police officer used a baton against a person who was not assaultive, they violated the general order. The use of impact weapons is not approved to get a person out of the way.
JT may be correct that there was a riot when the OPD arrived. The sad part is that it may turn out to be the OPD who rioted. Watch and see if anyone is held accountable.
Except maybe Chief Soger who is going to be shunned by the local pd community if he sticks with this approach.
It is time for a citizen oversight board.
I think JT stated this here, or maybe another thread
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 7:26pm.That it is a requirement to convince the police union to have a citizen oversight board. How would you propose to do that Mike? I'm betting that they wouldn't be terribly warm to the idea considering some of the people they serve in this community.
the weight of public opinion, use of court, negotiation
Submitted by Mike on Tue, 02/26/2008 - 8:45pm.it will take time. There are entrenched interests that like the authority to use deadly force and do not want to be accountable to anyone who is not part of the thin blue line.
The way that Seattle arrived at citizen oversight was as a settlement of the WTO lawsuits. I hope that the Port lawsuits follow that same path. I have posted on my blog how the WTO lawsuit settlement included citizen review board. You can go review that process if you want the details.
Mike
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 02/26/2008 - 8:49pm.The use of deadly force is not limited to police in this country. It is limited only by the law. If you are justified in the law to apply deadly force individual citizens can do so. Police do not have a monopoly on this act.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
I don't think the majority of the public is behind you on this
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 12:23am.Yes,
Submitted by JT on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 7:55pm.most of my brother and sister officers don't like the idea of a citizens review board. Not they are against the concept, they are against the radical groups that might work their way onto the board.
Since we are in contract negotiations now, the option of this being something the City might bring to the table will be for the next negotiations, at least 2, probably 3 years.
So if a CRB is to become a fact here, it won't be next week.
Also, with respect to CRBs, more is less, so to speak, or in other words, be careful what you wish for.
No matter if the science is all phony, there are collateral environmental benefits. Climate change provides the greatest chance to bring about justice and equality in the world ever.Christine Stewart (the real basis for the AGW scare)
IIRC
Submitted by security_six on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 8:02pm.Seattle has or had a pretty much useless CRB. I'm all for unions, but at times I have to wonder if the police guild has too much power.
OTOH, if a cop is really bad and needs removal, one would think citizen outcry would take care of that.
I still think any CRB needs at least one person appointed by the city council to provide some level of sanity (although in this town, that may not even do the trick)
Or a grand jury sort of thing. Summon citizens to hear certain types of complaints and pass judgement, pass the judgement through the city council as well. If both groups agree, then impliment the judgement.
Or make like the IRS and have a "citizen advocate" who's job is to aid and support the citizens during a complaint process and would work with the OPA Lt....
Or maybe nothing...
Or how about free beer?
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
If there is a bad cop on the force,
Submitted by JT on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 8:14pm.the union won't be a roadblock to his/her removal.
No matter if the science is all phony, there are collateral environmental benefits. Climate change provides the greatest chance to bring about justice and equality in the world ever.Christine Stewart (the real basis for the AGW scare)
OOPS..... EDIT
Submitted by security_six on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 12:32pm."Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
Go over David Brame's police career please
Submitted by Mike on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 9:22am.were there indications that he might be a "bad cop?" None of the questions that came up during his career prevented him from being seen within the Tacoma PD as a cop with a psycho wife. That story worked right up to the moment when he shot and killed her and then killed himself in front of his children.
You can tell me that TPD was flawed in some way, that such a thing would never happen in OPD, but my sense is that the thin blue line almost always works the same way and the story works until something like the Brame incident occurs when the story loses some of its credibility.
Police are not capable of policing themselves. What was the name of the detective in NYC - Serpico, I think. Ran into some problems with fellow officers for not being a "stand up guy."
Well,
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 02/26/2008 - 1:16pm.Basically, any kind of city sanctioned review board is going to have zero teeth. So why not avoid that by making it truly independent? Let the people hear what their public servants are up to in the media, I think that's the way it should be in a democracy anyhow.
We live in a Republic, not a Democracy.
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 02/26/2008 - 1:23pm.Subtle difference, but a difference.
How would you staff this board? Elections? Would there be a stipend for sitting on the board? Where would it get it's authority from? There would have to be some sort of power transfer from the city to empower this board...
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
ooh yuck, none of that stuff
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 02/26/2008 - 1:38pm.If regular citizens form a group and start submitting requests for police reports and following complaints through the process and publishing the results in many places, then the people can decide whether the OPD's process for accountability is working. If it is deemed to be working well, then great, if not, then the flaw will be exposed and we can work to fix them.
No authority = no teeth
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 02/26/2008 - 1:42pm.I can just see the volunteers on this board. I'm sorry but visions of 1917 "Worker's Councils" come to mind...
You can get all the volunteer activists you want together reading police reports and passing their own judgement, but I think most folks will see it another sort of fringe group joke and ignore.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
Would you say the ACLU has no teeth?
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 02/26/2008 - 1:48pm.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
Yes and no
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 02/26/2008 - 1:52pm.I felt what Rob was describing was not the same as a lobbying group like the ACLU or NRA. I could be wrong....
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
I answered your questions.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 02/26/2008 - 2:01pm.I have conducted public meetings to talk about this very thing. I assure you there weren't just "volunteer activists" there, there were men and women from about 20 to about 70 years old. They were all interested in police accountability. The conversation wasn't anything close to "let's fry the pigs". It was a serious conversation about what other cities have done to promote police accountability.
Also, people have authority in this country to challenge the system, enough people work together, change happens. The people have teeth. Plus, we've already learned that the Police Guild has a clause in their contract that says they get to approve of the conditions of a board. Which means officers won't have to talk to them, they won't have the power to reprimand or punish; only to make recommendations, which would likely be followed by a report from the OPD disputing the findings of the board, and we'd likely be right back where we started. If the people don't wait around and just form it and start reviewing complaints against officers and going to the media with the findings, I believe that the city will eventually have to start paying attention.
I wasn't trying to piss you off...
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 02/26/2008 - 8:34pm.I just have this stereotyped image in my head of citizen groups in Olympia... it seems you have set the record straight. ...
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you,
Submitted by Mike on Tue, 02/26/2008 - 8:58pm.then they fight you, then you win.
hat tip to Mahatma
S6 wrote:
Being considered a joke is part of the process and laughter is a good thing.
I kind of like the idea
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 02/26/2008 - 1:33pm.What?
Submitted by JT on Tue, 02/26/2008 - 3:12pm."The police don't like to be policed, somehow the guild got in their contract that they don't have to be accountable for their actions."
I didn't say that. And for you to say that seems to be wrong given what I did say.
And I never said we had a clause anywhere. I said the creation of a CRB is a mandatory topic of bargaining.
No matter if the science is all phony, there are collateral environmental benefits. Climate change provides the greatest chance to bring about justice and equality in the world ever.Christine Stewart (the real basis for the AGW scare)
Thanks for setting the record straight, JT
Submitted by Mike on Tue, 02/26/2008 - 8:53pm.JT wrote:
It's always helpful to respond and address what has actually been said instead of paraphrasing and attributing the paraphrase to the initial source.
I think the sloppy paraphrasing happens a lot here and I think it causes a lot of argument and misunderstanding. It's hard enough to communicate if we all read and write carefully.
We agree that establishing a citizen review board will take significant time.
Please excuse my theatrics.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 02/26/2008 - 10:09pm.What I read in what you wrote was that the guild has it so that they have a say in the formation of a CRB. I guess I assumed that was in writing somewhere in their contract. Can you clarify what "mandatory topic of bargaining" means.
I know that if I had a job, and had the choice of whether to allow a group of people independent of my profession to judge me and perhaps punish me for things I did wrong, I would choose for that not to happen.
I know that if I had a job,
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 12:25am.I know that if I had a job, and had the choice of whether to allow a group of people independent of my profession to judge me and perhaps punish me for things I did wrong, I would choose for that not to happen.
I can't imagine anyone would be excited about that. I like the idea of accountability, and I wouldn't want someone on my team that I didn't trust. I would want someone who knew my job well enough to be the one to fire him/her though, not a group of citizens that could potentially have an axe to grind.
Hey Norm,
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 2:33am.