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Submitted by Rob Richards on Sun, 06/03/2007 - 1:27pm.
In the run-up to the G8 Summit next week, tens of thousands of anti-G8 protesters, with several thousands on the Black Bloc alone, took part in the international demonstration in Rostock on 2 June, 2007. With colourful banners and puppets, protesters of different backgrounds tried to draw attention to the bigger problem of capitalism and the 'empire'. Police was very aggressive and provocative, using batons, water cannons and tear gas, not only against the 'bad protestors' but 'normal' ones as well. Violent confrontations were taking place while, on stage, the concert and speeches were trying to continue. Over 100 people were arrested and many injured on both sides.
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Black Bloc?
Submitted by Norm on Sun, 06/03/2007 - 2:57pm.Still there is no choice better
Submitted by OlyCop on Sun, 06/03/2007 - 5:57pm.than Capitalism. Unfortuately we are sliding towards socialism.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." Ellen Ripley - Aliens 1986
OC: Do you find it morally acceptable...
Submitted by Rick on Mon, 06/04/2007 - 7:24am....that there should be such a huge disparity of wealth in the world? I'd suggest that other economic systems actually fit better with your Christian faith. The guiding principle of socialism is just that there is a shared responsibility for the needs of everyone. Sound familiar?
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
Rob,
Submitted by OlyCop on Mon, 06/04/2007 - 8:27am.there is a reason the US is one of the riches nations in the world and enjoy some of the best quality of life, because capitalism works. In capitalism you work hard you are rewarded for your efforts. And you can come to this country or be raised in this country and be very successful even if you start out with nothing.
The shared responsibility should apply to only those who are in real need, not those who choose not to be successful and are content to receive handouts, whether small or large.
Attainment of wealth is not immoral. What you do with your wealth might be. But you don't get to play both sides of the card with me. If Christianity is a myth, then why bring it up now to try to make your point?
I have visited a number of countries in the world. Certainly not all, but many. And although there are many that are fun to visit I wouldn't trade what we have here in the US, even a little bit, for what others live under.
As for morality and my belief system, there are a lot worse things going on in this country than attainment of wealth that are immoral. Based on my belief system obviously.
Just for the record, I'm a hardcore capitalist. No corporate welfare, small government only supplying infrastructure and essential services. In-fact, I believe there is value in police and fire services being moved to the private sector. And welfare for our fellow man is only to those who need it. The sick, elderly, and disabled. If you can work, but working at some jobs are demeaning to you, then work hard and better yourself. Not everyone gets to go from the street to CEO without hitting some of the crummy jobs in the middle.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." Ellen Ripley - Aliens 1986
one word, "Tesla"
Submitted by chad360 on Mon, 06/04/2007 - 10:06am.he worked hard and got nothing...besides Tesla (he was also pretty wacky as well), I'd like you-all to consider:
Electronic trading of money and how it relates to capitalism, wage setting, etc...
Is this a fair system?
A person in a low-wage situaton digs a ditch, and so does a high-wage earner--
who worked harder? why should the pay be different?
Same calories expended, but one gets more money...
how so, and why?
...and is this a "just" thing? ...does this "sit well" with those of faith here?
Deep breath Norm
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 06/04/2007 - 10:17am.capitalism works how? what is the output?
Submitted by chad360 on Mon, 06/04/2007 - 12:55pm.OC- "there is a reason the US is one of the riches nations in the world and enjoy some of the best quality of life, because capitalism works."
...that and the amount of money we spend on the military, our low population, vast natural resources, democracy, (just to name a few)...
In this capitalist system, supply & demand drive many economic functions (and I'm sure lots of political ones as well)...this is true about alot of systems, but capitalism exploits these facets of life well--
...so following that lead, how much should OPEC charge per barrel?
Just a thought to ponder...
1. The idea that you can go
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 06/05/2007 - 9:30am.2. Your entire argument about homeless people is based on the fallacy that there is this vast percentage of people on the street who want to be there. I've yet to meet them. There are those who travel, and sometimes stay in one place for a couple of months, but that's not the same. The people that advocates are trying to help don't want to be in that situation anymore than you would and are willing to work very hard to get out and up. There is simply a lack of opportunity. All I can really say is go to Camp Quixote, talk to people as equals, not as burdons. You will find that they ARE indeed working very hard at bettering themselves, while at the same time trying to stay alive, and having to worry about those who don't think they have a right to exist, or at least not in their backyards.
I disagree with you Rob
Submitted by OlyCop on Tue, 06/05/2007 - 12:28pm.There are people here in our own Asian community that came to the US in the 80's from war torn lands and now are very successful business people, making a good living, and enjoying the benefits of hard work in this country. And those are just the ones I have personally seen in this community. It is happening all over the country.
I'm confident most or none of those in the camp want to be homeless. But do they want to not be homeless enough to work for it? I have heard you say some of those you champion for don't want a job flipping burgers as it is demeaning work. Is getting a handout any less hard on the ego than working at a job like McDonalds?
Hey, and don't get all mad at me as we discuss this. We have flamed out enough on each other over the last couple years.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." Ellen Ripley - Aliens 1986
I know just the folks you're talking about, Olycop...
Submitted by Phil Owen on Tue, 06/05/2007 - 3:02pm.I go to church with a bunch of them. Folks that fled from the communists in Vietnam, and folks who fled from the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia.
The fact is that they didn't "bootstrap" it. The notion that Asians come here and are magically successful is a myth. The Vietnamese and the Cambodians who have succeeded did indeed work extraordinarily hard for it, but they also -like everyone else that has ever succeeded at anything- had a tremendous amount of support (primarily from the faith communities that sponsored them). And now many of the successful refugees are working extremely hard to help their brethren who are still struggling - both here and in their nations of origin.
You see, in the end it isn't "rugged individualism" that takes the cake... it's good old fashioned community values. The existence of homelessness does not so much represent a failure of personal responsibility on the part of the homeless as it represents a failure of personal responsibility on the part of everyone else in the community. We aren't living up to the kind of values that offer real protection to our neighbors.
The Canaanite's Call
I have no problem helping
Submitted by OlyCop on Tue, 06/05/2007 - 5:39pm.once, maybe twice, but after that I'm done. Many of our local trans---homeless, are repeat consumers of assistance, or have lowered motivation to right their situation. I know there are lots of reason they may not be able pull themselves out of the funk. Some of you Phil, like yourself, Rob. R, Meta, others can keep patting them on the po-po and say it will be ok lets try again. I can't! You likely are better, more loving people than me, but I'm being honest, I can't do it. I expect people to pick themselves up and get on with it. That's just me.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." Ellen Ripley - Aliens 1986
Try looking at it this way...
Submitted by Phil Owen on Tue, 06/05/2007 - 10:14pm.Imagine a football coach who said, "I'll stick with ya if you lose once. But you only get one second chance. After that and I'm outta here". He wouldn't be a very good coach, now would he?
Being an advocate isn't too far off from being like a coach.
The Canaanite's Call
Chad360
Submitted by OlyCop on Mon, 06/04/2007 - 10:28am.I think your example is a bad one. But I think I understand your question but we will see.
So are you saying a guy who is unskilled labor, digging a ditch, should get paid the same as the neuro-surgeon that is about cut on your brain? Is the worker flipping burgers at McDonalds entitled to the same wage as the pilot of a 747 airliner?
Norm, don't hold back, you will constipate your brain. Go for it!!!
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." Ellen Ripley - Aliens 1986
You pretty much hit the nail on the head
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 06/04/2007 - 10:44am.So you're ok with suffering?
Submitted by Rick on Mon, 06/04/2007 - 11:12am.Here's what we're talking about Norm and OC: people are working two jobs, going without health insurance, not going to the doctor, eating junk because they don't have time to cook, and not seeing their kids, just to make enough money to live. This is not a lifestyle choice, but a reality for them. (And this is just the people who have it together enough to work.) *Is that ok with you*, and if not, what do you propose to do about it other than move "hardcore capitalism" in the direction of a more equitable distribution of wealth?
Your faith plays a role because you're so quick to bring it up as your moral compass. Well, I'm asking: how do you reconcile this situation with your faith? I think this is a fair question.
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
Minimum wage should be a
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Mon, 06/04/2007 - 11:25am.Also, are people living within their means? Are they driving gas guzzlers? Paying an entire day's wage for 500 cable channels? Keeping the bartenders rich? (And not just on July 4th.)
How many kids do they have? If we say a family of three should be able to survive and have some extras on two minimum wage jobs, should we also say that a family of eight must expect that too?
Rick
Submitted by OlyCop on Mon, 06/04/2007 - 12:11pm.Merwyn touched on it a bit, but these are some of my thoughts.
First, my faith isn't in conflict with my position on this.
Secondly, using your example, why should the situation the two above are in be my overwhelming concern?
If they couldn't afford to be parents, why did they become parents. And if it happened by accident, why should I pay for it? Yeah, their situation sounds sucky, but I didn't cause it. Where is their responsibility for their actions/decisions?
If the redistribution of wealth is so important to you Rick, what is stopping you from redistributing your wealth right now? Get out there and give to some needy families. Heck you probably could pay for several families health insurance to start. It's a free market here, you can do anything you want with your money.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." Ellen Ripley - Aliens 1986
If I'm understanding you...
Submitted by Rick on Mon, 06/04/2007 - 1:54pm....what you're saying is that poor people shouldn't have children. Only those who have money should be able to have this fundamental human experience. Hmmm. Please say more about how that fits with a Christian interpretation of the world.
I'd also like to note that we haven't even begun the conversation about how these principles apply to developing countries and the distribution of, say, water. Companies from the US are buying rights to water in other countries so that they can charge for this resource. People in these places can't pay for water. So, what then? What's the conversation look like in the head of the "hardcore capitalist" who's also a Christian in this situation?
In more general terms: at what point does it become apparent to you that we all have a responsibility for each other and that when people suffer on the other side of the planet, it affects me and you and everyone else?
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
If you knew that you
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Mon, 06/04/2007 - 1:58pm.Tammy and I want twins, but we couldn't even afford half-a-kid if we were to have one right now.
No
Submitted by OlyCop on Mon, 06/04/2007 - 7:06pm.what I'm saying is what I said. People should be responsible and live within their means. If they are so poor they can't afford children, then do something about your economics before you have kids, or don't have them. Only those that can provide for their family should have a family. Pretty simple and yes fundamental.
I have to be responsible and make good decisions, and if I make poor ones I get to feel the pain not someone else. Why should the poor not be held accountable for their decisions.
I have always said we have a responsibility to care for and protect our truly needy. But not all poor fit that mould. Example, the guy that has repeatedly gone to prison for drug use and now can't get a job is not the same as the guy that is born with chronic cerebral palsy and is unable to care for himself. I have no problem caring for guy #2, but I have a big problem caring for the druggy ex-con. And I have a bigger problem with the demand guy #1 puts on the system and reduces the care guy #2 might otherwise receive.
So Rick, you didn't answer the question. You're a Dr., and make a good wage. How much of your wealth do you redistribute to the poor, 80%, 50%, 20%, 0%?
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." Ellen Ripley - Aliens 1986
While I
Submitted by oysterpreserve on Mon, 06/04/2007 - 7:42pm.What if it was your hypothetical son (since I really don't know aything about you) who was the druggy ex-con? what if he had been in and out of rehabs and prison several times? what if he couldn't get a job? What if this entire time he just needed a little more help? What if that help just happened to be a government program that was paid for by your taxes? Would you tell your son to go sit in jail your time is over? Would you tell your son that he screwed up, there's no turning back now? Would you tell him that he doesn't deserve help, because he wasn't born with his disease?
It seems to me that it will always take more than just the people who live in your home to raise your children. We are all some ones child, whether were orphans, come from broken homes, or middle class suburbia it doesn't matter.
I can honestly say that I
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 06/04/2007 - 7:48pm.I can honestly say that I "had" to give up on my brother before he was willing to look at his life and make a change. Maybe it was coincidence, maybe it was just luck. After taking him to rehab twice and kicking his ass as many times as well I just got tired of it. Supporting him here and there, watching him break my family's hearts every month or so. I finally told him I was done with him and he needed to change before I would be around him anymore.
He's now a j-man electrician and moving his way up the ladder. No longer doing drugs ( I think he may still smoke mj once in awhile, but he passes piss tests) still drinks a little more than he should but that seems to be a common thing with people I know.
If he went to jail I wouldn't bail him out. I've told him that on several occasions, my family has agreed to do the same.
Family needs to care for family, but
Submitted by OlyCop on Wed, 06/06/2007 - 3:21am.if after 1 mistake my son makes the same mistake again he likely would feel all the pain himself, I believe in tough love. The first time wouldn't be a complete bail out either. Now that my elder son is almost 30, if he got his pee-pee in a bind, it likely would be his to sort out. But more importantly, my son would sort his mistakes out himself, as that is how he was raised.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." Ellen Ripley - Aliens 1986
wrong, take #2
Submitted by chad360 on Mon, 06/04/2007 - 12:46pm.My point (you missed it?)
Nick T. worked hard & got robbed by the capitalist system (plain & simple)-- any disagreements?
OC/Norm-- I didn't compare ditch digers (eduacted or not/skilled or not) to anything--
I was making a point about inequality (duh)
SAME JOB, different places, different wages...FOR THE SAME WORK! IS THAT FAIR?
Don't bandy rhetoric here: respond to what I said...can you?
I raised good points & asked straight questions.
I'm pretty amazed you could not follow that...
...where did the 747 or Dr. come from?
Sorry Chad
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 06/04/2007 - 1:17pm.I assure you it wasn't on purpose that we strayed from the original context, although we did stay on the same basic topic.
I'll post more later but I have to run right now. Really though, it was an expansion on your theme, I didn't realize it was such a straight shot.
Ok, a bit of time here
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 06/04/2007 - 1:56pm.Should ditch digger A be paid more than ditch digger B? No....with exceptions. Does one of the ditch diggers have more years in with the company? A loyal employee is certainly worth more than a new-hire imo. If they both have the same amount of time in, both are working just as hard as the other, and neither one is doing anything like a supervisory roll, then "yes" they should be getting the same wage.
If you are addressing difference in pay between races/gender/class then yes, I think that is wrong also. I'm not sure who Nick T. is, or Telsa (I'm guessing they are one and the same)
good guess
Submitted by chad360 on Tue, 06/05/2007 - 3:34pm.yep yep Nick Tesla (Nickolas)--
On the other side of the coin, there is R. Buckminster Fuller, who really wasn't messed with during his life-
I would agree with Norm, Chad
Submitted by OlyCop on Mon, 06/04/2007 - 2:31pm.I guess I'm the dumb ass that didn't get your question, so be pissed at me not Norm. Like I said I didn't understand your question at the time and I was trying to see if I had it, obviously I missed it.
If all things are equal, then yes equal pay. But there can be all kinds of reasons for unequal pay. But like Norm said differences in race, religion, gender, etc. are not acceptable reasons.
But how would socialism cure the disparity you mention?
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." Ellen Ripley - Aliens 1986
My View
Submitted by oysterpreserve on Mon, 06/04/2007 - 3:59pm.Political Economy of the Kingdom
Submitted by Phil Owen on Mon, 06/04/2007 - 4:03pm.It's a little bit inaccurate to suggest that socialism fits with Christian "economics".
Socialism strives for a "give what you can, take what you need" kind of world. This wouldn't be at all a bad thing (compared to the current state), but doesn't quite line up with Christian scripture.
A more Christian kind of economics would strive for a "give ALL that you have, and let the 'morrow care for itself" kind of world. It would be a world of "freebies", but more for what could be given than what could be gotten. Think something along the lines of a gift economy...
As a side note, I've spent a good deal of time lately studying apocalyptic literature (ie Daniel, Revelations), and have found that, when put in proper historical context, it has a great deal to say about capitalist economics and the politics of empire. Please keep your eyes peeled for a post on the topic.
The Canaanite's Call
Agreed.
Submitted by Rick on Mon, 06/04/2007 - 4:08pm.I wasn't trying to equate socialism and Christian faith. But, as you suggest, socialism is certainly closer than capitalism to what one might consider a Christian ethic of generosity.
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
not pissed at anyone! You all rock :-)
Submitted by chad360 on Tue, 06/05/2007 - 2:09pm.Hiya All-- Nuthing but good feeling here
...glad to post to a dialog thread...
I know it comes out "all wrong" on the old blog >alot<...
I'm not rippn OC, I just wanna point out that I think it is the folks in the US that make it great, not really capitalism or democracy
...although those ae tools that help those that help themselves to an extent...
The corporate accumulation of capital can and often does exceed the individual's ability to capture & retain wealth, and corporate wealth often works at cross-purposes to private wealth.
...mostly one feeding on the other (think retirement and investment services).
When all this is compounded by the trans-national trading of currancy, inequality in wages is just the start of many, many bad process, the least being Direct Foreign Investment and International Production/Trading zones...