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Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 09/18/2007 - 1:04pm.

My mother and grandparents lived in the Swabian village of Gunzburg, Germany during the war. Opa locked the doors of the guest worker dormitory at night before walking to Die Rose to drink his beer. Oma cooked for them, the Czechs and Poles who slaved at the factory owned by Karl Mengele, Josef’s father. Firma Karl Mengele & Sohne continues to supply the world with farm equipment today.

Oma and opa were law-abiding, hard working, good Catholics who, like everyone else in that little town, knew not to ask questions or say the wrong thing to the wrong person. No one could ever accuse them of hating their country. So in little Gunzburg, “evil incarnate” was able to flourish.

Update: Today the New York Times posted a slide show that touches on the banality of evil theme and includes an appearance by Josef M., favorite son of Gunzburg.
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wow

thank you for sharing that
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So...

By not protesting ICE we as American citizens would be permitting the possibility of evil to flourish here in Lynnwood, Tacoma and I think recently in Shelton? Is that what you are trying to imply? It is a good column but immigration and customs law enforcement is not a moral equivalent of a Nazi police state. ICE is not a secret police of the federal or state government.

 

Here is the problem; ICE is not implementing some kind of beginning to a 'final solution' to deal with illegal aliens in this country. ICE is not arresting people and deporting them if they are legally permitted to live and work in this country. (I understand that there may be some instances where this is not the case, and of course those people should be returned to their homes and families if they are legal citizens or legal visitors in some capacity) We are not sending them to concentration camps. We are not putting them in jail for being illegal in this country. Instead we put them in jail for other crimes they have committed. ICE is not a moral equivalent of the Gestapo, no matter how you look at it.  

On a side note, I lived very near the city of Gunzberg. I lived for two years in Zweibrucken from 1988 to 1990. It was one of the best times of my life, I was able to travel great deal from Spain to Yugoslavia, and I learned a lot about cooking, skiing, Formula One, among other things. I want to go back some day. It is a good column but we still profoundly disagree.

 

C.

 

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in. 

Thomas Sowell

 
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I wasn't trying to defend the ICE-Gestapo analogy

I am speaking more to the valuable contributions that "people who seem to hate their country" might be making. If more people in Gunzburg had "hated their country" a little better, some bad things might have been avoided.
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Oh Noooooooo! Not F1?!

my husband would talk your ear off wanting to know all you know about Formula 1!  He's a major addict!  So's his dad!  They DVR everything they can find about F1!  They both race continentals & spec racers in the SCCA circuit and hubby told me he'd take me to Italy under one condition...  He gets to go to a F1 race!  

How frickin' romantic!

 

"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown

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How could you go ...

How can one go to Italy and not visit Modena, and Ferrari in particular? I would love to go to Monza, but I would be just as interested in heading to Marenello! Viva Enzo! Viva Schumacher! 

C.

P.S. give your hubby my email any time! 

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in. 

Thomas Sowell 

»

Yeah! Yeah!

He mentioned those places too but they just didn't sound as interesting to me as the restaurants of Rome or the ancient Roman ruins or the fashion district of Milan...

He was a huge Michael Schumacher fan before he retired and now is Hamilton Lewis's #1 fan!  He's still pulling his hair out over that whole McLaren/Ferrari debacle

He even built a race car simulator with a real F1 racecar seat, force fed steering wheel & pedals & he pulls it out in the middle of the theater and practices racing on his 12 foot TV screen!  He likes to use the Live For Speed racing game!  He says it's the most F1 realistic!  But you can only race the F1's if you buy it for $50.00!  You can download the demo & have a ball racing Golfs & RX7's!  They also set up demolition derby car tracks in parking lots & it's great to take your aggressions out in!  LOL!  If you try the demo, look for him!  His screen name is Alpha633!

"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown

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again, again, again,

It's NOT my analogy. I posted this at the request of a friend. So please, get off my back about it.

I was going to ask you some questions but why bother.

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Yep, and Gugli was just

Yep, and Gugli was just relating a story. That doesn't automatically mean he's black or white about an issue, just sharing part of his family's life.
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I wasn't 'on your back'.

Why don't you ask your questions.  

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in. 

Thomas Sowell 

»

OK

What should be done about immigration? Simply keeping things as they are is not working. The ICE takes breadwinners away from their families, leaving children in danger within our borders. Those children didn't choose where they're living, the parents did. This recent raid was at a KMart, yet KMart won't be punished for hiring the workers, only the workers will be punished. This system allows corporations that are rich beyond belief to get away with breaking the law, but punishes workers who are usually poor beyond belief.

What would a Brownell administration do to fix the problem?

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Good points Rob

Unfortunately, some folks buy the myth that your kind of thinking simply reflects a hatred of America. The points are lost on them, sadly. Your questions always go answered. They only answer them with other questions: "Why don't you want secure borders? Why are you against enforcing our laws? Why do you care more about their children than ours? Why do you hate America?" Be a good citizen Rob. Shhhhhhh.
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I'm sorry Guglielmo what did you say?

I hope you find the response to Rob's questions below satisfactory. I don't think you find any questions except "How many more examples do you need?" That is not to say that the questions you asked are not legitimate, and I gather you feel they are intrusive and convoluting. Why don't you go ahead and answer them for your readers?

C.

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in. 

Thomas Sowell 

»

Rob,

Here are some easily obtained links and some information about companies that have been prosecuted for hiring illegals. We should enforce our borders. We should deport people who are here illegally, when they are either caught when a work place is raided, or when the illegal aliens are caught some other way i.e. traffic stop, other crime, both violent and nonviolent in nature. We should ENFORCE the laws that we have currently. We should also do more to assist new members to our country assimilate into our culture, help them speak the language, help them understand our history, and help them get the exposure to the opportunity that is on offer here. We should find ways to have people who are here illegally, currently pay a fine, and do some classes like regular immigrants do, and have them work toward becoming legal citizens like the rest of us.I am very supportive of legal immigration, as it has only made America what it is. Illegal immigration should not be tolerated any more than corporate fraud is tolerated. www.corp-ethics.com www.foxnews.com/ www.nctimes.com/
  • Garcia Labor Companies/ABX Air-On October 3, 2006, two temporary labor companies; as well as Maximo Garcia, the president of these companies and two of their corporate officers pleaded guilty in Ohio to conspiring to provide hundreds of illegal aliens to work for ABX Air, a national air cargo from Ohio. The three individuals pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy to induce, aid and abet illegal aliens to reside or remain in the United States for the purpose of commercial advantage or private financial gain. Garcia, the president of the Garcia Labor companies, agreed to forfeit $12 million as part of the plea agreement. He and the other two individuals face up to ten years in prison and a fine of $250,000. The Social Security Administration issued a number of notices in 2002, 2003, and 2004 in which hundreds of Hispanic workers employed by Garcia Labor were listed as using invalid Social Security account numbers. Despite such notices, Garcia Labor continued to employ these workers and took no substantive action to determine whether they were authorized to work in the United States. On April 26, 2006, ABX Air supervisor Douglas Steels pleaded guilty to charges of engaging in a pattern and practice of employing illegal aliens. He was sentenced to 6 months.
  • Kentucky Limited Liability Corporations- On July 20, 2006, two corporations in Kentucky pleaded guilty to criminal charges of harboring illegal aliens and money laundering in connection with a scheme that provided illegal workers to Holiday Inn, Days Inn and other hotels in Kentucky. As part of the plea, Asha Ventures, LLC and Narayan, LLC agreed to pay $1.5 million cash in lieu of forfeiture and create internal compliance programs. Sentencing is scheduled for October. Through their agents, the companies employed numerous illegal aliens at hotels in London, KY who were often paid by check made payable to fictitious cleaning companies. The checks were then negotiated at the hotel upon whose account the check was drawn, and the aliens were then paid in cash. These payments were designed to disguise the nature, location, source or ownership of the proceeds.
  • Fischer Homes and subcontractors—On July 7, 2006, Alfredo Medina-Mejia and Leopoldo Medina pleaded guilty to criminal charges of harboring illegal aliens. Both men worked as subcontractors that provided illegal workers to Fischer Homes construction sites in Kentucky. The guilty pleas resulted from raids conducted on May 9, 2006, in which ICE agents arrested four supervisors of Fischer Homes Inc. and 76 illegal alien workers at Fischer Homes construction sites in Kentucky. Fischer Homes is a leading builder of homes in Indiana, Kentucky, and Ohio. The Fischer Homes managers are charged with aiding and abetting and harboring illegal aliens. On May 11, several contractors and contract firms that allegedly provided illegal workers for Fischer Homes construction sites were indicted on charges of harboring illegal aliens in connection with the scheme.
  • Stucco Design—On May 2, 2006, Robert Porcisanu, the owner of an Indiana business that performed stucco-related services at construction sites in seven Midwest states was charged with money laundering, harboring illegal aliens, transporting illegal aliens, and false statements in connection with an illegal employment scheme. Porcisanu faces 40 years in prison. ICE is also seeking the forfeiture of $1.4 million. His firm was allegedly able to undercut the bids of contractors to perform work at construction sites by taking advantage of cheap labor costs from the use of illegal alien employees.
  • IFCO Systems North America—On April 19,2006, ICE agents arrested seven current and former managers of IFCO Systems North America Inc, pursuant to criminal in Albany, New York, charging them with harboring illegal aliens for financial gain. ICE agents also apprehended 1,187 of the firm’s illegal alien employees during search warrants and consent searches executed at more than 40 IFCO locations nationwide. The arrests were the result of a year-long probe of IFCO, which determined that more than half of IFCO’s employees during 2005 had invalid or mismatched Social Security numbers. IFCO is the largest pallet services company in the United States, based in Houston, Texas.
  • Kawasaki Sushi—On April 14, 2006, the operators of Baltimore’s best-known sushi restaurants agreed to forfeit more than $1 million and pleaded guilty to criminal chargers to commit alien harboring and money laundering in connection with an illegal alien employment scheme. The investigation found that the operators of the three Kawasaki restaurants in Baltimore exploited cheap, illegal labor to maximize profits in order to purchase new homes and luxury vehicles for themselves.
  • HV Connect—On April 11, 2006, a federal indictment was unsealed in Ohio charging two temporary employment agencies and nine individuals with hiring and harboring illegal aliens; mail and wire fraud; and laundering approximately $5.3 million. The indictment alleged that HV Connect, Inc., and TN Job Service, Inc. provided hundreds of illegal alien employees to unwitting companies in Ohio by falsely representing that they were legal. The indictment also alleged that the owners of these agencies used the profits from this scheme build a new home and purchase jewelry for themselves.
There are plenty more examples of how businesses are punished when they violate the law when it comes to hiring illegal aliens. How many more examples would you like? One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

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I'm not satisfied, but nice try

The prosecution of seven small businesses, most of which were probably gone after for the money laundering part first not the workers, just doesn't cut it at all. Where is KMART, Labor Ready, Tyson, WAL-MART, Foster Farms, etc.?

You support an amnesty program. That's good I guess, I'm surprised.

Not to sound too much like my slightly to the right liberal/Dem/Green friends, but what about those children I asked about? By taking away the main bread winner of the family you force the family onto state welfare rolls, which are taxed enough as it is by the folks born here that didn't work hard enough for the American Dream.

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I am short on time today,

Maybe, just maybe you could do a little critical thinking and look up Kmart yourself. I think almost for sure that WalMart settled out of court, but still paid some fines. Again I don't have time to do all the research for you. 

What happens to children who are left with out a bread winner when the father is jailed for some other offense? What happens to the kids when a single mom is hooked on and dealing meth? There are community resources both public and private. If the child and or family are illegally here, they either need to be in the process of becoming citizens or they need to be deported to their home country.  

C.

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in. 

Thomas Sowell 

»

Oh

Well, that's simple. So we don't have to give a shit about anybody but us? Awesome! Boy, I've been wasting my time all these years. We can just ignore all the poverty in the world at the same as we're creating it. It feels so good to let go of the burden of owning up to our international economic policies. This is that Freedom I've been hearing so much about, isn't it? Feels nice, real nice.
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Your words not mine

By not protesting ICE we as American citizens would be permitting the possibility of evil to flourish here...

However, by constantly resisting, rejecting, and condemning those who are wary of authority you may be providing one of its necessary nutrients. There is little to be gained by discouraging dissent.

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Yep!

Thousands of doughnut-eaters earning extra overtime are depending on those dissenters.
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Regarding Tschida's initial comment....

...and following up on Gugli's last one ("there is little to be gained by discouraging dissent"), I seem to remember from junior high history that this country was founded upon dissent; perhaps T. would rather be a Brit? or perhaps people with such ideals would prefer to placidly rest on their founding fathers' laurels..
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What a bizare statement.

How does protesting ICE relate in anyway to the founding fathers? Why do you feel that illegal aliens who enter our country fraudulently should not be held responsible for that crime? Would you protest the Security and Exchange commission for enforcing the law against businesses which break the law? C. One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.  Thomas Sowell  

 

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Whether or not it is a good idea to protest the ICE

is not the issue. The problem I see, and why I wrote about Gunzburg, is that people should not be discouraged from speaking out. Bad things can happen in that sort of atmosphere.

You seem very invested in getting people to justify why they are protesting this or that. I won't call that kind of thinking bizare [sic] because that's rude. But it is certainly a kind favor to those who wish to stifle dissent.

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I thank you for sharing the

I thank you for sharing the story Gug, it was interesting.
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If you click on the links

you get some info on the origin of some famous commentor names.
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Ok...

I don't understand why you would protest the people at ICE who are doing their jobs. The aliens have broken the law and come here illegally. ICE is charged with removing them. Why would you protest that, unless... you are really trying to advance a different  and less obvious agenda?

 

C.

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in. 

Thomas Sowell

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Perhaps you should start a thread about that

this one is about the danger of being silent.
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Tsch...

Thanks for responding to Rob's questions. It was very satisfying indeed. I don't need more examples, since it wasn't my question. All I care about here is the value of dissent, so your last post was perfectly fine with me.
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