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Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 1:46pm.
Commentary: Citizens of Olympia woke up this morning to find that our state captiol building has been vandalized. Some one or some group of vandals spray painted anti-war slogans and the symbol for anarchists on some pillars. With a typically callous disregard for our state, and the people who live here, they chose to vandalize public property to try to get a message across. The message comes after the milestone of four thousand U.S. casualties in the War On Terror began. A slightly longer news story can be found here. What exactly is the point of this? How does it affect the citizens of Olympia and state of Washington? Is someone going to telephone Dick Cheney and say "Hey look, man, the far left in wester Washington state have had just about enough of this war, and they have taken to spray painting the very captiol building! What you need to do is begin an immeadiate and total withdrawl of our troops. We don't want them thinking we are some kind of modern day Nazi's!" Do you suppose the people or person who did this have been in constant contact with the Washington congressional delegation? Have they been writing letters, or making phone calls urging a change in our national foreign policy? Have they been working to get people to change their votes when it comes to election time? Have they been working within the system to affect any kind of change? I am guessing not, considering they seem to support the idea of anarchy, why would they then work to improve government to meet their agenda, which is no formal government? What of the people who know about this being done, and know who is responsible? Do you think they will be good citizens, and call a crime tip line and turn in some information that will lead to an arrest or two and put some people in jail or into community service for vandalizing our capitol? I hope they will. but I am not optomistic enough to hold my breath. I think we have a culture in Olympia where vandalism in the form of graffiti is permissible. you can see in the Olympian comments section of the story that people feel like "hey it's no big deal". They see it as a 'cost of doing business" kind of issue. Well as the climate of this tolerance for disregarding laws and violating public proberty continues, we can rest assured that we will continue to see this sort of crime, and continue to pay the costs that come with cleaning it up. In the end, the criminals have made Olympia look bad, cost the tax payers money, and hidden behind a culture that thinks, 'hey its a cost of doing business' which is too bad for the rest of the good people here who don't feel like this is anything other than a blemish on a fine city and its people.
http://www.tifosi1f1.blogspot.com/
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To quote the Vice President...
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 2:04pm...."so"?
Sorry, but that's the way I feel.
OW!
Submitted by stevenl on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 7:04pm.I cracked a rib not too long ago and you made me laugh, Original Yoda!
It is interesting that with all the taxpayer dollars that have been sunk into Homeland Security, a vandal who attacks the seat of government in our fine state was not caught in person or on film. Holy Katrina, Batman! Another hole in the system! To assign blame or make assumptions about the motives of this vandal is merely conjecture until the criminal is apprehended. In the meantime making concrete statements about such motives or why this happened is only revealing the prejudices of the accuser.
Things are not always what they seem. For example: I said this before, and I'll say it again, Lucky Charms are not "magically delicious."
Magic
Submitted by White Rabbit on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 3:10am.Lucky Charms are, in fact, magically delicious.
The idea that General Mills would lie to the public about a matter as important as processed, fortified breakfast cereal is anathema to any true American.
He is a General after all. Show some respect, please!
--- "In the United States, doing good has come to be, like patriotism, a favorite device of persons with something to sell." - H.L. Mencken
Silly Rabbit ...
Submitted by stevenl on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 5:31am.Hey, welcome back!
To say General Mills and General Electric are captains of industry would be a demotion for them, wouldn't it?
As someone who thinks of tagging
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 2:22pm.as a "cost of doing business" I must chime in. Tagging is vandalism. Shoplifting is theft. Both are criminal and impose costs on society. I wish they didn’t happen but I reserve my outrage for other things and I see no reason, for practical purposes, to vilify one more than the other. My only word.
EDIT: But I'm not going to tell you how to feel about it. Now that's my last word.
I'm reasonable, I don't
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 2:27pm.you mentioned wanting to test your reasoning...
Submitted by enpen on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 3:22pm.So I'm'a gonna drive a truck through a hole in your logic.
as the climate of this tolerance for disregarding laws and violating public property continues, we can rest assured that we will continue to see this sort of crime, and continue to pay the costs that come with cleaning it up.
My natural inclination is to break your language down into its bare bones conditional: if we continue to tolerate x then we will continue to see y. The contrapositive of this statement would be that if we don't continue to see y then x is no longer tolerated. So your theory is that if we were to live in a society with no illegal graffiti then it would be because we no longer tolerate that graffiti. Do you know of any societies free of graffiti to test this theory on? I've read about a number of societies with zero tolerance for illegal graffiti (modern day Iran and China are two) yet they all continued to experience illegal political graffiti. It seems to be an inverse relationship in that the less tolerant a society the more illegal political graffiti they have to battle. And make no mistake, the graffiti on the Capitol building is political and shares only the relationship of illegality, paint and language with the forms seen with greater frequency these days both here and throughout the world.
I look forward to seeing you change your mind.
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
Contrapositive...
Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 4:06pm.What? Singapore doesn't tolerate this sort of behavior, and although I have not been to Singapore personally, I do know people who have lived there as well as visited there, and all agree the place is very very clean. Now how I think this meets your statement here, "Do you know of any societies free of graffiti to test this theory on?" As for the policy on graffiti in Iran I don't have a clue, and I suspect neither do you. (though bringing up the notion of Iran and a policy on graffiti does bring to mind their policy on homosexuality and the dycotomy of liberal tolerance towards Islam, but that is another matter.)However, as for Singapore, take a look here. Although Michael Fey was also convicted of theft, his punishment also was for graffiti. The end result is they have a culture where this behavior is not tolerated, and is not seen as an 'art form' (it isn't) and they punish those who break this law, and er go little to no graffiti.
As for the graffiti being a political message and the notion you seem to imply that it is here and every where, well, simply put that doesn't make it ok. You feel so strongly then valdalize your own property, not others.
So what exactly is there that is going to change my mind?
Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
I can personally vouch for
Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 4:08pm.Is that what we want?
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 4:37pm.I don't believe I said
Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 5:03pm.I don't believe I said that, Rob. I said it was a very clean and tidy country. They took my gum. They have real consequences. That's all.
Personally I'd like to drive by a STOP sign or electrical box or cable box or personal property and not see that someone has defaced it. I don't think that's too much to ask but some will continue to defend it as free speech regardless of others rights that are stepped on along the way.
I was listening to KAOS the other day and the guest, an author, (forget his name at the moment) was very clear about this type of behavior from the liberal/progressive movement. He didn't care to use the word liberal but did so to include a larger segmet of the democratic base. The reason he didn't care for the word liberal -- because Republicans have done such a great job (his words, not mine) at framing liberal to include the perpetrator(s) of actions like vandalism at the Capitol. It was enjoyable to listen to someone who fights for progressive values (his wife is in congress) yet sees this anti-social behavior as a detriment to positive movement.
I just don't see a solution to your problem,
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 5:05pm.I think the dude on KAOS was politicking a bit, trying to look moderate, appeal to a wider base. I think he's wrong, this activity doesn't help or hurt anything, in reality. People who are really invested in change, and really active in it, no matter where on the ideological spectrum they land, don't pay attention to this stuff. It's the media that likes to make a spectacle out of a non-story. I think we give this type of behavior too much press, and credit, when we have conversations about it's "affect on movements". Just like Cheney won't change his mind because of it, neither will Kucinich use it as a rallying point.
You think he's wrong? Then
Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 5:14pm.You think he's wrong? Then write a book and tell us how it should be. The interviewer, the guy who was co-host with Terry when he interviewed Doug, agreed with him on air time and time again. Was he politicking? Placed his book in the top 3 reads for progressive values, ever.
And, just so you know, I'm not the media when I'm traveling down Evergreen Parkway.
We can agree to disagree - as we always do about this time.
Settle down.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 7:18pm.Just like it's not asking
Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 8:30pm.Just like it's not asking too much to not paint sh*t that ain't yours.
Umm...
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 6:44pm.That whole trains and Mussolini thing has been shown to be nothing more than a myth...
"Ya' know, even flies love." -Meta Hogan
"Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convience store, not a government agency."
at least do a casual internet search, it'd help
Submitted by enpen on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 5:08pm.Ido know people who have lived there as well as visited there, and all agree the place is very very clean. Now how I think this meets your statement here, "Do you know of any societies free of graffiti to test this theory on?"
I think it meets my statement with easily verifiable truth. A city that is "very very clean" does not mean it has no graffiti. And there are indeed people there that consider it an art. Man, you're wasting my time with your inability to even put your reasoning to the test. Singapore is paying a cost for illegal graffiti and they do not tolerate it. They pay the cost in painting over it, they pay the cost in incarceration and they pay the cost in maintaining the laws.
The government does not sanction it in Iran and the punishments can be severe if caught. But Iran is a bigger place than Singapore...as is almost every other place on earth, so it's easier to get away with it.
And it really isn't a matter of it being "ok", it's a matter of how many resources are wasted on combating it. But thanks for playing.
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
I think you're wasting your
Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 5:17pm.I think you're wasting your own time there, enpen.
but
Submitted by enpen on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 5:27pm.somebody is wrong on the internet...
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
Step away, just step away. =)
Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 5:38pm.Step away, just step away. =)
What are you talking about?
Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 6:17pm.Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
um...
Submitted by enpen on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 8:26pm.so under your statements, we should just give up!
I'm not sure how that reasoning follows from my statements at all and is completely contrary to my interest in documenting street art. Since you're telling me that it does, however, please provide that analysis.
Perhaps you should read my tag line thing under my signature!
Funny you should bring that up. One of the things I realized while researching the street art movement is that were we to actually live in a "free market" without government intervention then graffiti would have won out long ago. The movement is a major (if not the major) player in modern art, modern advertising and modern design.
What is art?
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
graffiti & art
Submitted by enpen on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 5:11pm.A whole different topic. Seriously...at this point, you may as well say cubism isn't art. Some are good at their craft and some are not.
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
Did Tsch edit this or a
Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 3:54pm.That was me.
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 4:42pm.I deleted the picture that was ganked from the O's page.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Much appreciated.
Submitted by Aaron Mason on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 4:49pm.I was just curious to know
Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 5:01pm.I didn't edit it.
Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 5:57pm.Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
hmmm...
Submitted by a.future.with.n... on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 4:48pm.It's as old as Daniel.
Submitted by Phil Owen on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 6:36pm.target
Submitted by noradarno on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 5:35pm.Wolverines! (did anyone else worship "Red Dawn" the movie?)
Submitted by Indilympia Jones on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 8:11pm.stencils =)
Submitted by chad360 on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 8:33pm.Maybe folks should use stencils (like leaf cut-outs or fish shapes)~
~would that help to make graffiti more palatable?
...or is bare/raw concrete just such a sexi look that it must be preserved ar all costs?
Let the graffiti accumulate! (for all I care)
point of order
Submitted by noradarno on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 8:36pm.we've deluded ourselves...
Submitted by enpen on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 8:50pm.or is bare/raw concrete just such a sexi look that it must be preserved ar all costs?
We allowed arbiters of taste to blind us. Once upon a time Greek antiquities were unearthed which convinced the educated class that the ancient Greeks, pillars of wisdom and taste, espoused a minimal aesthetic in their sculpture and architecture. Bright colors were deemed base and indicative of the volatile emotions of the uneducated and lower class. Fortunately we now have machines to enlighten our previous state of ignorance.
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
That is funny considering the Romans painted much of their
Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 9:01pm.Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
yeah
Submitted by enpen on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 9:12pm.My bad on taking down that tangent.
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
hmmm
Submitted by scrubjay on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 9:31pm.Don't tag my house.
Submitted by Laurian on Wed, 03/26/2008 - 12:08am.Who cares what happens in Singapore or fascist Italy. I don't care what motivates anyone to graffiti our House. It's not cool, not cool.
I am very hesitant to deify anyone or anything, but the emotions my Capitol building instills in me is as close as I come reverence. It's where democracy happens, the worst form of government except for all the rest. I really don't care if the perp or perps are caught or not. I just wish they would have more respect for my flawed but better than average form of government.
If the author/s of the graffiti really believe anarchy is a better way to organize society, then I wish she/he would practice a basic tenet of anarchy, respect. Failing that, I wish they would move to somewhere they can put their version of anarchy into practice. Parts of Idaho, Wyoming, eastern Montana and the Dakotas are pretty tolerant to an anti to no-government philosophy.
As to graffiti as art or form of resistance: Oh come on! Tagging is soooo east coast 80's! I know there are others who appreciate creating cryptic images for the public to see, but all the toxic fumes and self-referential iconography is lost on this aging punk rocker. In my defense, I do get the outlaw allure.
You are welcome
Submitted by ontheroad on Wed, 03/26/2008 - 10:02am.Is joke, right?
Submitted by Laurian on Wed, 03/26/2008 - 10:45am.If not gimme an address and I'll be right over to decorate your place with All the Way with the NRA. Too literal? How about about swastika? Please have a copy of your mortgage so I can be sure it is in reality your property.
If you are pulling my leg, please forgive. Sometimes jokes ellude me as well.
Why would you want to promote the NRA and NAZIs?
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 03/26/2008 - 10:49am.Why are you
Submitted by security_six on Wed, 03/26/2008 - 1:38pm.Lumping the NRA and Nazis together? And from your tone, I am guessing you find the NRA offensive. That's fine, although I do have an NRA sticker in the window of my sailboat FYI...
"Ya' know, even flies love." -Meta Hogan
"Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convience store, not a government agency."
Why are you comparing the
Submitted by Sako on Wed, 03/26/2008 - 1:43pm.???
Submitted by security_six on Wed, 03/26/2008 - 1:45pm.It struck me as Laurian was equating the NRA with Nazis or at the very least lumping them in the same category as offensive. Rather unusual to lump a Civil Rights organization with genocidal nutcases isn't it?
"Ya' know, even flies love." -Meta Hogan
"Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convience store, not a government agency."
One person's civil rights organization is another's
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 03/26/2008 - 2:46pm.Well it's downright
Submitted by security_six on Wed, 03/26/2008 - 2:52pm.Offensive. I'm a bit touchy today, don't mind me :-p
"Ya' know, even flies love." -Meta Hogan
"Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convience store, not a government agency."
Well Steve
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 03/26/2008 - 3:36pm.Hmmm Pro Death...
Submitted by Tschida on Wed, 03/26/2008 - 5:27pm.Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
I agree, offensive and intellectually dishonest!
Submitted by JT on Wed, 03/26/2008 - 5:56pm.Retraction(s) are in order.
"...terrorists portray themselves quite successfully among Muslims as the exponents of true and pure Islam...(Robert B Spencer, author)
itchyhitch.blogspot.com
Regardless of any implied relationship between...
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Wed, 03/26/2008 - 6:14pm.Easy there Six
Submitted by Laurian on Wed, 03/26/2008 - 6:09pm.I do not now, nor have I ever equated the NRA with the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei or any form of organized fascist or racist philosphy. The NRA's firearm safety programs they sponsor great. Like driving a car, one should know a little about a potentially dangerous machine works before using one. The NRA's Political action committee I'm not so hot on, but I'm getting dangerously close to an entirely different thread.
Reading, or perhapse more accurately commenting on meta-texts is a risky activity. As I'm sure you will agree human can hold diverse and subtile beliefs.
What I attempted to do in my posting, (and having to explain is either proof of my unadequate command of this English language or the continued demise of Irony), was to choose a couple examples of what I thought would be offensive graffitti to comment on what I read as a knee jerk pro-graffitti sentiment. Like you, I find the defacing of the Capitol building quite offensive and hope those responcible will be held accountable. I reluctantly apologise if my attempt at irony was mis-understood.
It's good
Submitted by security_six on Wed, 03/26/2008 - 6:17pm.Guess I'm the wrong person to see something pertaining to the NRA as offensive. Even in this town there are more than a few people who hold them in regard.
"Ya' know, even flies love." -Meta Hogan
"Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convience store, not a government agency."
Uh...
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 03/26/2008 - 7:07pm.Haven't you learned yet!!!
Submitted by JT on Wed, 03/26/2008 - 8:15pm.no opinions on Olyblog!!!
;)
"...terrorists portray themselves quite successfully among Muslims as the exponents of true and pure Islam...(Robert B Spencer, author)
itchyhitch.blogspot.com
Opinions are okay
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Wed, 03/26/2008 - 8:39pm.However, I am of the opinion that hateful, racist, sexist, hurtful, harmful, attacking - "opinion" ought to be discouraged, and perhaps removed. To do so is mostly in an effort to encourage a broad based participation of community members. I want an alternative to the voice of the entrenched and embedded corporate media.
My opinion is that opinion is okay, just as long as it's not hateful.
Aldo Leopold: "We abuse land because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us. When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect."
Yeah, this is crazy. Some
Submitted by Ehver Green on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 9:13am.Really?
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 9:29am.I thought you already gave
Submitted by Ehver Green on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 9:35am.I thought you already gave your last word! =)
Here's my point - a few people have stated up front they are offended by the comments yet the same actions taken on other offensive threads don't apply?
My suggestion would be to listen to those who are offended and act as you have in the past. Be consistent.
well
Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 9:44am.I've made my suggestion.
Submitted by Ehver Green on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 9:47am.I've made my suggestion. You have two members who are offended and have told you so. It's your call.
and two apologies have been doled out
Submitted by enpen on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 1:44pm.Which is more than I can say about the threads that were shut down...
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
That's a good point.
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 10:08am.pretty easy to be misunderstood
Submitted by Mike on Sun, 03/30/2008 - 4:10pm.it happens. but the original offer, "hey you can add graffiti or color to my house" was not necessarily an invitation to use the opportunity to be as offensive as possible in the choice of sloganeering and tagging.
I watched the dvd "piece by piece" a while back and came away with new appreciation for the culture of graffiti and tagging. My place gets tagged occasionally, I might enjoy the use of the public wall near my garage as a canvas for local artists working in this public and temporary medium, but I suspect lots of my neighbors would simply see vandalism and no artistic impulse or merit.
Many artists work in a format or style that reduces the chance that their work will get a reasonable evaluation. Being understood may not be an essential element of the artistic impulse.
All that said, the political graffiti at the Capitol struck me as vandalism rather than art, unless there is some aspect of the work that I am missing.
I prefer to live in a community that celebrates art and senseless color to a community that is really neat and clean if the price for tidiness is harsh social control.
I hope that whoever is
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Wed, 03/26/2008 - 2:50pm.I hope that whoever is responsible for this unfortunate act of vandalism comes forward to accept responsibility.
This act does not represent the core of the true anti-war movement. Those who are truly engaged in the anti-war and peace movements realize that such defacement of public property does not promote constructive solutions to the scourge of violence, war and militarism in our society.
That would be cool
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 03/26/2008 - 3:37pm.But the stuff that OLY PMR did that was illegal is ok?
Submitted by Tschida on Wed, 03/26/2008 - 5:29pm.Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
Oly PMR and Civil Resistance
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Wed, 03/26/2008 - 5:49pm.And also: while I think that the Capitol Building is a more than legitimate target for the expression of anti-war sentiment, I (personally, and there is disagreement in the anti-war movement about this,) do not think that spraying anarchist graffiti on the building is good for the relationship of the anti-war movement with the community.
Prominent decision makers within government of the USA are culpable and, I allege, guilty of perpetrating wars of aggression. It is the duty of patriotic citizens to resist grievous wars of aggression as they are perpetrated in our name, by our government.
Aldo Leopold: "We abuse land because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us. When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect."
What you are perpetuating is a double standard.
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 10:38am.It is in your opinion permissible to break laws when the motivation behind breaking the law is something you agree with. In this situtation it is protesting a war you mistakenly believe to be a violation of either federal or international law, or perhaps both. Why is one expression allowed and the other not?
Then you state that you believe that the Captiol building is a legitimate target for such resistance and it being this legitimate target, it is reasonable that an "expression of anti-war sentiment" would take place there. You do grasp that the community will see this behavior for what it is, a crime and you also understand the public relations obstacle this will present between those who understand that graffiti is a crime and should not be tolerated and the members of the community who see graffiti for what it is, a crime of vandalism.
I believe your posistion to be disingenuous. When it comes to breaking the law, you feel it is justified and permissible while on the other hand you claim vandalism against a "more than legitimate target" is some how not allowable. Of course this doesn't make sense, as both crimes are generally considered to be non-violent, and both meet the criteria of demonstrating the desire to end the War on Terror, and working to further that particular agenda.
You claim that the graffiti is not representitive of the 'core' of the peace movement, which I take to mean the center or the most active members of the movement. Considering the anti-war graffiti shows up from time to time all over town, I would tend to disagree. It would seem that not only is it part of the anti-war movement, graffiti in general can tend to be central to the counter culture in general. Evidence would seem to suggest that vandalism using spray paint is very much part of the anti-war movment.
C.
Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
just stop, all your base are belong to me
Submitted by enpen on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 1:59pm.I believe your posistion to be disingenuous. When it comes to breaking the law, you feel it is justified and permissible while on the other hand you claim vandalism against a "more than legitimate target" is some how not allowable. Of course this doesn't make sense...
Of course it makes sense. A major characteristic of adult human thought is its ability to live with seemingly conflicting realities. Why do you believe in a god but not the Easter Bunny? They both are considered to be beliefs, and both beliefs meet the criteria of being illogical. Yet you believe in one and not the other and you seem to find yourself rational.
Evidence would seem to suggest that vandalism using spray paint is very much part of the anti-war movment.
It is certainly a part of some people's anti-war attitude and methodology. If you want to say it's a central part of the anti-war movement you're going to have to prove that. Right now what you're trying to standby is about as logically airtight as saying that SETI is a central part of Physics.
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
All your base are belong to us...
Submitted by Rick on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 2:48pm.> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
double standard
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 2:01pm.That is the double-standard. For clarity. Our disagreement is in regard to the fundamental illegality and immorality of the war. I see it as an effort to further global dominance and an economic conquest. You see it as a crusade against Islam, which you believe to be a bad religion.
There is no double-standard, because citizens are right to oppose and resist the militarization of our society as it is done to further and accomplish the fiendish and insidious and cruel desire for global dominance. Global dominance is not in the best interest of the nation.
What is in the best interest of the nation? Impeaching culpable members of the Bush Administration. Getting a new Congress in office. Stopping illegal and immoral foreign wars of aggression and the associated scourge of violence in, and militarization of, society.
Wait,... What?
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 2:24pm.You said, "What is a double standard is your unwillingness to hold members of the Bush Administration accountable for perpetrating a war of aggression." I would want to hold the Bush Administration accountable if they didn't wage a war of agression against people who commit terror and support those who commit terror. What double standard? You have a bunch of supposition and emotion that amounts to a bunch of rhetoric and noting that can actually be substantiated, thus we do not have impeachments, trials, or anythng more than some investigations to grease the so called squeeky wheel. I don't support wasting time and money for no good reason. What double standard is there in this?
You said, "I see it as an effort to further global dominance and an economic conquest." Based on what? Because that is what you read at the DailyKos?
You said, "You see it as a crusade against Islam, which you believe to be a bad religion." I don't see it as this at all. I see it as a crusade against those who are willing to kill 3000 innocent Americans, and demanding the blood of more. I see it waging a war against those who are all ready at war with us and have been for more than 15 years. The issue of Islam is another matter specificalliy, however the hate that the Koran foments that I demonstrated for you on my blog is relevent to the war being waged against the West.
You said, "There is no double-standard, because citizens are right to oppose and resist the militarization of our society as it is done to further and accomplish the fiendish and insidious and cruel desire for global dominance. " So you don't think it wrong or a crime to vandalise the Capitol building because "citizens are right to oppose and resist ". So either you are lying now or you lied before. Either way, because it doesn't really matter you are being intellectually dishonest. Which as a docent breaks the rules you help set up.
You said "Global dominance is not in the best interest of the nation." Who are we dominating? Didn't Afghanistan have elections and Iraq make internal political choices that run in the opposite or contrary to what in the 'best interest' of the Bush administration? Who are we dominating? Doesn't the left as documented by the DailyKos and HuffingPost claim the surge has failed? Who is it we are dominating? I would like to know.
You said, "Getting a new Congress in office." Didn't we just do that in the last congressional election cycle? Isn't Nancy Pants running things far enough to the left for you?
Can you tell me in one or two ways your life has been militarized in any way? Can you give actual external to your feelings examples of how your life has been militarized? If it has happened to you Mr. Whitlock, it must have happened to others as well. I would like to know what exactly you mean by this.
C.
Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
Please no "Nancy Pants" talk
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 2:32pm.My Tag line is fine, It is almost a year old.
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 2:34pm.Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
back to your tag line
Submitted by enpen on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 2:36pm.The government should stop stepping in to oppose graffiti because a relatively free market has proven the enormous financial value it has to society, right?
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
Governments are not stopping
Submitted by Ehver Green on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 2:59pm.that's just it
Submitted by enpen on Fri, 03/28/2008 - 1:20pm.All of the legal forms now feeding hundreds of millions of dollars into tax systems came out of illegal forms. Even things like Philadelphia's Mural Arts Program were conceived as a response to illegal graffiti. Laws against it were initially minimal or nonexistent but have continuously become more harsh despite the economic success of the movement.
I'm not actually using this point to advocate anything, rather it seems an apparent paradox to me if one is championing free markets yet demanding the government do more to stop graffiti.
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
Your profound lack of respect for your fellow bloggers is noted.
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 2:45pm.Funny how my tag line is an issue today,
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 2:51pm.Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
Hey, it's all good Tsch
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 3:09pm.You need not comply with my demands. Simply saying , "sorry it bothers you, but the quote is important to me" is the kind of respect I'm talking about. Compliance is really not the issue. To be honest, your tag line has bothered me from day one for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is Sowell's disingenuous disregard of the Theory of Second Best. You wouldn't know better, but he certainly does. Tsk tsk.
...as an Asshole I will call Nancy Pants, what I like.
Yeah,,,
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 3:14pm.Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
So...
Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 3:24pm.I don't know anything about Bohmer...
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 3:44pm.Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
no, please elucidate
Submitted by enpen on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 9:04pm.If you mean to say that Chomsky is no Physicist, I agree. If you mean to say Chomsky is less than a brilliant thinker, you have a mountain of evidence to overcome.
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
Did I say "wrong?" Something must be wrong with my keys
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 3:32pm.I think the word I meant to use was "disingenuous." In otherwords, he knows better. I have a lot of respect for Sowell's intelect. As one of but a handfull of scholars to complete a dissertation under Stigler, the guy must have some pretty good chops in addition to some incredibly thick skin. Unfortunately, he seems to have relied too much on the latter.
...as an Asshole I will call Nancy Pants, what I like.
you mean sshl?
Submitted by Ehver Green on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 3:35pm.I have no idea what that means
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 3:45pm.I like your tag line!
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 3:49pm.Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
So he knows better, but...
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 3:45pm.Chooses to get it wrong for what? Fun?
C.
Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
Why do you so often accuse people of being disingenuous?
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 4:31pm.Do you think they're just doing it for fun? No, you probably assume they are doing it to support their point of view, albeit disingenuously. Or maybe it IS just "fun" for Sowell. Perhaps he just enjoys serving red meat to an eager, uncritical audience. Your guess is as good as mine. There are much better economists out there who aren't so obsessed with the battle between the left and the right, but you wouldn't get to poke anyone in the eye by quoting one of them.
...I will call Nancy Pants, what I like. --Tschida
Awww you changed your tag line. Bummer.
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 8:59pm.Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
I've read Sowell
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 03/28/2008 - 11:04am.In magazines and newspapers mostly. I don't need to read his basic economics books and everything else is profoundly polemical. As a former disciple of Milton Friedman, I am already quite familiar with the used car Sowell is trying to sell. I've yet to read "Knowledge and Decisions," which sounds a worthwhile read.
In grad school at the UW, which was very much a little, west-coast Chicago school at the time, we read an enormous amount, almost exclusively research literature and refereed journal articles. We had absolutely no time for and little interest in the kinds of products Sowell produces: polemical books or basic economics texts. And trust me, we didn't stick to the syllabi. We read everything we could get our hands if it gave us a leg up. Nothing by Sowell though. While the man is a terrific advocate of free-markets and superb popularizer of Friedman's brand, his influence on the field of economics is rather modest at best. But I see his appeal. Heck, I once thought "Free to Choose" was the greatest thing ever written.
In a nut shell, here’s my problem with Sowell and his ilk. They fail to acknowledge that economics has nothing to say about social welfare, yet they insist they know what’s best for society. The ONLY thing they can speak to with any authority is economic efficiency. Matters of equity are far beyond their scope.
itchy tchitchy
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 6:29pm.Aerosol Can Alternatives
Submitted by Ehver Green on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 9:28am.I wonder, how many aerosol cans have expired downtown? Probably thousands of them over time.
Check-out the bottom of this page for a self-pressurizing bottle. Now you can buy the cheap "oops" paint from your local hardware store and save the aerosol, and money!
http://www.flickr.com/groups/wwwflickrcomgroupsstencil/discuss/72157594560574199/
oooo
Submitted by enpen on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 2:00pm.Ehver Green is a catalyst.
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
I have no problem with the
Submitted by Ehver Green on Thu, 03/27/2008 - 2:30pm.I have no problem with the art, as you know. And much thanks to you for that. I just can't support it when it crosses the line. The only problem here is that the line, for most of us, exists in our head and we only have the law to reconcile our differences.
I don't even recall how I got to that link this morning. I was reading an environmental article and the thought of spray cans popped in my head. What's the environmental impact of the can itself - Chris already mentioned the drainage issues (you too).
While reading the thread above on flicker I came back to the chalk talk. What about chalk with a (gulp) spray coating to protect it? Does this exist?
Oh, yeah, I'd *LOVE* to see some 3D sytle chalk art on the side of a building. Impressive stuff. The Reef would be perfect for all to enjoy! Maybe this: