It's Wrong to Prosecute the Port Protesters

On the Line Jeremy Pawloski has an article in The Olympian today about the the trial of the port protesters (Port Protesters Head to Trial). I think it's a good article. It has information about what's happening with the cases. I want to share my opinion about the protesters, and the prosecution.

I think that the prosecution of port protesters is just plain wrong. I am of the opinion that the protesters are true heros, and that they ought to be treated accordingly. They deserve to be rewarded, instead of prosecuted - and certainly not fined or otherwise punished.

The protesters who were arrested did not intend to hurt anything, or anyone - nor did they ever actually hurt anything or anyone. I believe it can be rightly understood that the protesters are the true sheriffs. Their intention was to protect U.S. military personnel and the Iraqi people from harms associated with acts of aggression committed by the U.S. government. Thus, they should not be treated as criminals.

Rather, instead of being subject to prosecution for alleged criminal activity, the protesters ought to be commended, even rewarded with a peace prize, and certainly they ought to be provided with restitution for any harms, grievances or inconveniences incurred as a result of their courageous stand.

The real criminal act, relating to enabling military shipments through the port, is to stand by and do nothing while the U.S. government runs military and economic riot in Iraq (and elsewhere.)

The protesters were participating in privileged action in civil resistance to what is clearly a wrongful and tremendously harmful imperialistic military occupation, which has resulted in injury, suffering, displacement and death for millions upon millions of Iraqis.

Civil Resistance - Nonviolent Direct Action Protesters deserve to be rewarded, and held up as heros. Their courageous efforts to stop an illegal and immoral war of aggression are commendable, and ought to be treated as such.

I think it's wrong to prosecute the protesters.

Public resources instead ought to be used, and I believe would be rightly so, to put the war on trial. Prosecute the war. Put aggression on trial. Put imperialism on trial!

Long live the resistance! Toward a better world for all.

Comments

Prosecution is Correct

because the jury trial is one of the best features of the American system, power to the people as they say. If indeed there is a legitimate aregument for innocence, average citizens will get to make this decision.

Three comments

1. Martin Luther King understood arrest and prosecution are important elements to civil disobience. It gives dissenters a forum to speak to power and morality. Think Jesus before Pilate and Herod. Martin did.

2. I second noradarno's comments. The fundamental flaw in the PMR's tactics was to impede RETURNING war material. This anti-war human wants ALL imperial tools of violence to come home. To have one's motivation and morality questioned as Berd has done in this thread, (and others such as Drew and Patty have in others) for merely dissenting and critiquing specific tactics is chilling. 

3. No more non-sequiturs. Yes, Bush was evil but the post and ensuing discussion is about the ethics and morality of the Civil Disobedience portion of the PMR protest.

a little devil's advocate.

"believe it can be rightly understood that the protesters are the true sheriffs. Their intention was to protect U.S. military personnel and the Iraqi people from harms associated with acts of aggression committed by the U.S. government. Thus, they should not be treated as criminals. "

How does blocking the RETURNED equipment, because that is what this action was, equipment being unloaded, help protect U.S. military personnel or Iraqi people from harm?

The equipment was already used in the war, it already was used to kill and harm, it was already damaged and American lives were already put in harm by its use. It was coming back to base.

Did you know that when equipment such as this returns, that the quartermaster and staff have to wait to see their loved ones until it is processed and accounted for. So basically, this protest, which was not protesting the sending of machinery of war, but the retuning machinery, was keeping soldiers with families from seeing their loved ones in any sense of a timely and stress free manner after being deployed to a war which even many combatants don't agree with.

On top of that, with PTSD issues, to come home to a small US town with combatant protesters and police officers does not allow for any sensible idea of readjusting.

This protest most likely did not think of the soldiers, but only co-opts the mantra of "for the soldier, against the war" after the fact to avoid being pushed into an anti-soldier, anti-family corner by moderate thinkers.

"Rather, instead of being subject to prosecution for alleged criminal activity, the protesters ought to be commended, even rewarded with a peace prize, and certainly they ought to be provided with restitution for any harms, grievances or inconveniences incurred as a result of their courageous stand. "

I can understand this argument, in theory. However, we must also hold ourselves up to a higher level of scrutiny. You can not preach non-violence, and the immorality of war while spitting police officers (our public servants who are not military personnel, nor decision makers of any sort), nor can we through objects through car windows, destruct civic property. While these types of direct actions get press, it only marginalizes the cause, brings people who once would stand in solidarity with the movement against you, and distracts the conversation from militarism and imperialism to the mechanics of protest and morality.

Additionally, again, this protest was not blocking out-going products of mass destruction, but returned, homeward bound items. This is not like the other port (oly and tacoma) actions that was shipping outward bound military products.

Anyway, something to think about. I am sure your response will be flamey, full of rhetoric, and I probably will not respond if it is nothing more than what you have already said. Nothing personal, just not worth the time to get into something that isn't a proactive dialog.

A quick response

Hi Radar,

I'm not going to take the time to respond to your question in depth, but I will try to address all of them here. Why to block returning equipment? Simply because the port is a revolving door. What goes in, goes back out. Just because the weapons are returning, doesn't mean they won't be used again, either in training or execution, for more illegal activities. As long as the USA has policies and practices of imperialism, and as long as there are illegal wars being fought in effort to conquest - then hopefully there will be those courageous heroes who will stand up in concerted resistance.

I don't doubt that it is difficult for soldiers to return to society, nor that having protests upon their return makes it any easier. However, blaming protesters for making it tough on soldiers is totally wrong.

The soldiers have been abused by politicians and other decision makers. That is who to blame for their state of mind. And even more than that - the real blame can be rightly lain on culture and society. The real problem is of a systemic and cultural nature. It's a culture where people seek to get ahead of each other, and to have power over each other. Until we find better ways to measure success than having control over others, then there will continue to be problems where the labor of soldiers is abused for the benefit of some few elite decision makers (i.e. Dick Cheney, et al.)

So it is not just rhetoric to say that the protesters - at least many of them - care for the soldiers. In fact, blocking the shipments is quite actually very real practical caring in action.

You won't find me defending anyone for spitting on police officers, and since it bothers you, I suggest that, if you can document the spitting, then you might organize a meeting of reconciliation with any spitter/spittee.

Your effort to focus on what might have been the spitting of a few protesters, in light of the tremendous assault (of pepper spray, dragging, and hitting with batons) that the heroic protesters suffered at the hands of the mis-guided police officers is illuminating here.

It makes me question whether you support a policy of dominance and conquest.

I sincerely hope that is not flamey or full of rhetoric.

Nothing personal, just working pro-actively to make the world a better place for all people.


***

It is not to question what I do or do not support. I personally do not support the war in Iraq, however, I do find the tactics of the Nov. Port Resistance to have been misguided, and to have drastically backfired.

I do find it hypocritical to say that it was simply in a response to police aggression. The situation was pushed aggressively on both sides. There were in fact people spitting on and throwing rocks at the local authorities. If there hadn't been a catalyst for heightened police force, there would have not been the same level of back and forth "actions".

A "dialog" with those doing the spitting and rock throwing is a ridiculous joke, and, I am sure you understand that to be the case. The individuals involved in those actions do not want a coherent dialog, they want to place the blame on all that is in their way, to them, by their actions the local authorities deserved what they got. I have had several dialogs with the sort in protest and direct action planning meetings over the years, and it always, without fail the same circular argument without any articulation.

There were some direct action groups among the protesters who specifically wished to be aggressors, and their actions turned the whole protest into an image and documentation of division rather than a symbol of peace and standing in solidarity against the war.

I am speaking only of this particular protest, as I think that other protests, specifically of ones blocking outgoing shipments, and protests that while there were arrests there were no acts of violence towards civil authorities that mucked up the waters of a clear and direct statement.

Like I said before, this is a little devil's advocate here, but it was an action that was more dividing than unifying, and its execution was not the best. A better statement could have been made.

Thank you for not relying only on rhetoric or flame tactics.

Um...

Spitters and rock throwers were a distinct minority. Not sure I understand your focus on that behavior. I spent a lot of time at the protests and witnessed one instance of spitting which was immediately denounced by other protesters. Rock throwing (not something enjoyed by the majority) began only after law enforcement escalated the violence. Prior to that, the actions consisted of people standing in the way of trucks. Sure, some of the protesters were assholes, but your characterization is pretty skewed.

"um"

I am not saying they were a majority. However, I did seem to recall police responding to being pushed in one instance, and have a rock thrown at them in another as a MAJOR cause for the esculation.

If you can find one instance where I say that everyone was doing this, or even a majority, I would concede.

However, I did not.

You may think my characterization is skewed, but think about your perspective for one second, and the perspective this argument is speaking about. I have not denounced activism, I have not denounced the whole port protest mobilization, nor I have denounced taking an active role in resisting the war. I did offer an argument that this particular action had serious flaws in execution, self policing and perhaps even in branding or picking a less divisive shipment/target

The violent and vulger actions, which did happen, splintered the image of the protest and lost supporters for further port protests, as well as in the general public beyond the activist community lose significant support and meaning. Additionally, the rock throwing and spitting is a side note on a larger issue of trying to say you are for the soldiers, when this action actually caused soldiers coming home to be delayed in seeing their families and caused them to deal with a mini-riot on American soil just after leaving a war zone.

Violent and Vulgar

If you wanted to see violent and vulgar, you should have seen the "counter-protesters" - the pro-war (ostensibly pro-troops) people.

These were the people who were, in reference to the protesters, chanting "kill them, kill them, kill them!"

Guglielmo has some great photos of them.


Agents Provocateurs

When a peaceful demonstration is considered inconvenient by the established order, whether that order be law enforcement, the military, the intelligence community, or a corporation, that established order employs agents provocateurs to ensure the demonstration does not remain peaceful.  It only takes one or two individuals to disrupt the intended action.  

This is nothing new, and has been employed by governments around the world for centuries.  Interviews with event organizers after the fact typically reveal that no one directly involved with the event recognized any of those involved in starting the violence.  After the event is out of control, they simply fade into the background and disappear.  Once the violence has begun, otherwise rational individuals can be swept up by it and act irresponsibly.   This technique is simple, easy, and carries little risk for the established order, which can then justify its violent response as being necessary to maintain the peace.  

Event organizers must keep this eventuality in mind and watch for it.  If possible, people should be assigned to monitor the situation and photograph individuals who instigate violence, and use any means practical to make these individuals stand out and be identifiable.  It is not easy to counter this tactic, but the effort must be made.

re: agents provocateurs

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I do not know why this happened, it was fine when I posted it, now it is messed up.

Disemvoweled

Your post has been disemvoweled, which is a way for a moderator to suggest that the tone, or content, was somehow offensive, or abusive.


thanks!

Thanks for letting me know.

I don't know how saying you agree with the theory of something, but that it doesn't seem to apply in this case is offensive.

Maybe it was an issue of tone. I certainly wish the moderator would have emailed me or asked me to change it or pointed out what was wrong with it for my own awareness of tone. Sometimes intent doesn't translate well over the internet.

otherwise it kind of seems like censoring an outside voice, which I didn't have the impression that olyblog was about.

Maybe a better question...

Would be: who exactly actually "moderated" your comment? Rick has that power, but is seldom online anymore. Berd has that power as well, I believe.

OlyBlog

OlyBlog doesn't go for censorship. But OlyBlog is interested in maintaining a space that is safe for everyone. When some people become pushy and rude and insulting, it makes it less likely that everyone will feel safe to participate.

Tone makes a big difference. Some topics just aren't very well suited to electronic conversations - they come with too much emotion, so that eye contact and tone of voice are very helpful in guiding peoples understandings. I think this is probably one of those areas, where it's important to be sensitive to other peoples' past experiences, and also respectful - and not trying to push. I love to argue with people, and I am willing to argue about this or any other topic.

But I am not willing to have an arguement with someone who I do not know, who I cannot see - and thus, have no idea about whether the person is being honest.

No offense. But if you want to have this argument, here or anywhere else, I am going to have to know who you are. I need some context.

And in answer to Rob's comment, 'twas I who did the dis-emvoweling, yessiree indeedy.

And the reason why was because of over-all tone, as well as specific language that was of an offensive nature.


Berd,

It is completely unethical for you to do that. If you have a problem, you should take it to another moderator, not make the unilateral decision that you don't like the tone of something someone you are arguing with wrote.

I know it's been a long time since this blog talked about it's journalistic values, but I would think something like this would still be off limits.

Just saying.

oops!

Really, completely unethical? Not so sure about that. If it was, then I completely apologize. And will do better in the future.


hypocrisy

Berd, you spend plenty of time and energy railing against privilege in society and its use toward domination. Then you use your privilege on OlyBlog to your own advantage by silencing someone whodisagrees with you. If you can't see the hypocrisy, well I don't know what else to say.

Also, If you "completely apologize" restore the deleted vowels.

 

BS

As the intended recipient of the comments with the deleted vowels, I remind you that this practice is a stated policy of the OlyBlog.  If people do not like it, they should not use abusive language in their comments.  If they do, they have to accept the consequences.  

Show me the abusive language from noradarno.

I saw a difference of opinion, Berd thinks that equals abuse.

abusive language

The part that really got me was the zinger at the end, when noradarno wrote of the whole protest going "tits up." I am not one to be straight edge on sexist language all the time - but this is an especially inappropriate place for such language. The blockade of November 13 was a Women's Solidarity Action; to end all violence against women.

While I wholeheartedly disagree with radar, and with The Olympian, and a whole lot of people, that the inappropriate behavior (spitting/ rock throwing) of a few people took away from the real message of the protest - my objection is to the specific language that radar used.

Maybe I was wrong to edit his comment. Maybe I should have just pointed it out. But I am not sure. Maybe I was right. I'll have to think about it and get back to people about this.

Peace, and be well.

Berd, if you feel you were wrong

then do more than lament your short coming; correct it. If it is possible re-post noradarno's original de-voweled comment.

Technically, tits does not exclusively refer to the female nipples of the homo sapien species.

Both male and females have

Both male and females have tits...check it out sometime

You are really a weird fella

You are really a weird fella Berd.

Thank you Wilson!

-

spitting and rock throwing

Radar, I think that most of the protesters would agree with me in their opposition to spitting and certainly to rock throwing.

I agree with you that those behaviors don't further the cause of ending unjust wars and healing our society and making the world a better place.

However, I thinking you're losing sight of the forest because of the trees.

Spitting, calling names, hitting, and throwing rocks are certainly not helpful, in my opinion. However, these behaviors in no way compare to the U.S. Government's investment of trillions of dollars in these unjust wars.

It doesn't change that fact that real troop support is stopping the wars. And if we agree on that, then please, by all means, join the protest and help to set a positive example of engaging in nonviolent civil resistance.

I think the revolving door theory is ample justification to oppose both outgoing and incoming shipments through our municipal ports of entry.

By the way, there is a protest against the war being organized by PMR set for tomorrow afternoon (4pm) at the Federal Courthouse in Tacoma.


One last set of questions

This is an honest set of questions.

I bring this up since both Guglielmo and Berd admit that, while they were in the minority, there were people spitting and throwing debris at police officials.

By port mobilization counts how many people attended the action?

How many people are currently being charged by the OPD for their involvement in this action?

What percentage of the port protesters were people spitting, throwing debris, or resisting arrest? I know it is a minority.

I am by NO MEANS saying those facing charges did any of this or did anything to merit prosecution, I don't know the individual cases. But do you think from a city/police standpoint they may be trying to arrest or charge a percentage of protesters equal to the amount of protesters committing crimes? even if the individuals were not the right ones?

And if you think the city is doing that, while you personally denounce the actions of individuals spitting and throwing debris, do you think the city is more mis-guided or have the wrong "(wo)man" than malicious?

This is an honest set of questions to understand your perspective and where the grey area may end on the situation. I am not trying to goat anyone into an argument or flame them.

Take a Look at the Big Picture

Your fascination with spitting is really not the issue here. If you have a problem with it, you're talking to the wrong person. I don't encourage hateful behavior, and I speak up against it when I see it.

I think what you're trying to do is to take focus off the topic of this blog post.

The topic of this post is that the protesters were right to be protesting - in fact their act of nonviolent civil resistance was honorable, commendable and heroic. Additionally, they should NOT be prosecuted - rather, instead, they should be rewarded.

I think that you are trying to obfuscate and dilute that argument by talking about spitting and rock-throwing.

The Women's Solidarity Action on November 13th was just that. An action by the participants to be in solidarity with all of the women in the USA, and in Iraq, civilians, military personal et al. - as well as all women, all around the world - who suffer because of imperialism, and because economic policies, and cultural norms, of conquest and domination, policies and cultural norms of the maintenance of coercive and exploitative power by some over others.

I would encourage you to do some research of your own. And start your own post about the problem of spitting and rock throwing, I might be glad to argue with you about nonviolence. Good luck. And be well.






***

If I am mistaken the topic you posted was, "It's Wrong to Prosecute the Port Protesters"

I am not trying to dilute and obfuscate anything. I am trying to have a legitimate dialog. I have done research on my own, I am quite aware of the "bigger picture" and not just one facet of the protest. However, if you don't want to answer honest questions, don't want to have a real dialog, that is fine. You can tell me to "go research it on your own." Or to "start your own post". But at the end of the day, all that says to me is that you are not really interested in a true dialog, that you are not willing to think about or hear varying interpretations, and that you are locked in rhetoric without any sort of discourse or action that would point to any sense of pragmatism. So, I guess, thanks for turning this from something that could have been a set of useful things to think about in future actions, into trying to self justify an action that did not go as well as it could have. Seriously the no-protester-at-fault mantra is extremely divisive when working with a community at large, it dilutes your intent, it dilutes your voice, and more importantly it pushes voices and people who may have been sympathetic to your ideology away from you.

Honest Questions | Legitimate Dialogue

I am not sure that you're representing yourself honestly. I don't think this is a good conversation to have on OlyBlog - honestly - because I don't know who you are, and I don't know anything about you, and I don't trust your honesty - honestly.

No offense. But it seems to me that you're just being disruptive. That's all.

I am not saying that protesters shouldn't be held accountable for harmful behavior - what I am saying is that the behavior of the protesters in Women's Solidarity Action wasn't intended to be harmful, nor indeed was it harmful.

The protesters were trying to stop the war. They were trying to protect the soldiers and the people of Iraq from tremendous abuses suffered at the hands of the U.S. Government.

That's all. If you think that someone spitting completely negates that message, that's up to you.






easy out

Well, I guess you do not care. If you can not trust my honesty, I guess it is an easy out for you to not answer what are pretty clear honest questions.

As far as disruptive, I am not trying to be "disruptive" I am playing devils advocate and asking HONEST QUESTIONS THAT IF THOUGHT ABOUT AND ADDRESSED WOULD ONLY STRENGTHEN FURTHER ACTIONS AND BRIDGE GAPS BETWEEN THE ACTIVIST COMMUNITY AND A GREATER COMMUNITY AT LARGE WHO MAY BE MORE WILLING TO STAND IN SOLIDARITY TO A LARGER MOVEMENT.

You have repeatedly dwelled on a small statement and missed a bigger question. You have failed repeatedly to answer what are simple and honest questions.

This was an opportunity to create dialog that would be helpful for others outside your small community and yet, you have taken an attitude of mis-trust that is in fact obfuscating your own ability to speak with a community that may be waxing between support or non-support.

While I am not personally offend, I do find it very sad that you, yourself would question someone asking questions and trying to start a dialog of point/counter point to bring about a more rounded understanding of the penumbra of perspectives by simply writing it off as disruptive. You could have just as easily spoke truthfully about the subject and made this conversation more of a balanced conversation on what could go wrong, what did go wrong, how to counter such actions, and how to plan better in the future. But you didn't. You simply tried to write off what you didn't want to hear as someone being disruptive and that is narrow minded and sad.

Totally Disagree

In fact - your behavior on this has felt more like a personal attack than anything.

How

How has it been a personal attack?

Is because you are internalizing the conversation? Or is it something specific I said that made it seem like a personal attack against you?

Just curious how talking about the subject could have been a personal attack, honestly.

Yuckiness

I just don't appreciate the way you're interacting with me. You're not listening. You keep poking in a way that doesn't feel good. I don't trust you and I don't think you're being honest. I think that you're just against protesters who protest the war. That's what I think.

"noradarno"

The protesters were right, and are right, to protest against the war - even to the point of engaging in nonviolent direct action civil resistance.

It seems to me like you're not taking into account the severity of the situation - the millions upon millions of Iraqis who have been made to suffer for no good cause. Millions upon millions made to suffer in the name of imperialism and policies of dominance.

I honestly can't understand how someone could be so selfish and socio-centric to complain so incessantly about someone spitting at a cop, when there is such a tremendous wrong being committed in the world.

I think you're not willing to open your eyes and really accept the deep nature of the problem, because if you were, then you would realize the importance of taking whatever serious and nonviolent action is necessary to bring a halt to the insidious machine of war.

That's pretty much all. It's not about me. It's about doing what is right and standing up for humanity.

You're trying to change the subject. I don't appreciate it. That's all.

Since you seem to have a problem with spitting protesters I encourage you to post a blog about it, so people can discuss it in a more appropriate location.

This post is designed to talk about how it is wrong to prosecute the protesters. People are welcome to disagree about that. But the G-man wrote that this is about sitting - not spitting. And I think that's right. They are being prosecuted for blocking traffic. Not spitting.

If YOU want to prosecute for spitting, then do it somewhere else, please.

Thank you.






wow

I am now, selfish and socio-centric, when it took me saying that you were dodging the question, which you still pretty much have, to make a bold statement based on rhetoric (which I predicted you would do in my first post and asked you not to) and turned it into me being a "bad person" for prodding you.

For the record, it is not changing the subject, the subject is the same. It is asking questions about the subject, trying to discuss the subject in a way that is not one sided, rhetorical, but multisided based in differing view points, in the HOPES that it would eventually bring about a honest discussion about how to make sure that the message is not marred with distractions in the future.

But, honestly, it seems that you can not get past that. that you would rather dwell on one small point, and not think about the good a conversation like this could do. It really is kind of sad to think that someone who holds themselves as a moralistic voice on dissent and the war, as well as wants to hold the government to a proper social standard can not have the ability to discuss things that he does not agree totally with in a fashion that is direct, honest and civil without trying to make the opposing voice sound "bad" or "dishonest" or "discredited" those are the same tactics the Bush administration and every war time administration have done to dissenting voices, You are doing nothing different.

also, for the record

I have participated in protests against this war in nearly every corner of this country, as well as Canada, and not once did I feel that the protesting was unjustified. Not once did I feel that the protesters deserved to be prosecuted for using their rights and resisting the war; I do however think that the Nov. protest had serious problems that need to be addressed in order to deal with such things in the future.

But I guess I am the narrow minded, socio-centric one here, not thinking of the people of Iraq.

It just seems to me that in order to be a more effective agent of change learning from mistakes, thinking of marginalized voices and how to be inclusive, rather than exclusive and rhetorical would be a good idea to bring something as large as the industrial-military complex to a stop.

You said...

"the Nov. protest had serious problems that need to be addressed in order to deal with such things in the future." I assume you are referring to the relatively sporatic eruptions of vandalism and civil discord that occurred over a couple days. But the people being referenced in the attached article, were not arrested for those acts. They were arrested for sitting and blocking traffic, pretty standard, vanilla acts of civil disobedience.  Unless you consider that "serious" you seem to be clinging to another topic here. 

Personally, I don't have a strong opinion about the prosecution in this case.  But I don't think it would be a great injustice if the charges were dropped.  Seems there are considerably worse things to concern ourselves with than some folks who sat in the street too long.  But then, I'm not as thirsty as some folks.

 

They were arrested for sitting, not spitting

As the article says, "The anti-war protesters were arrested Nov. 13 in what is known as the “women’s action” at the port. The action consisted of a group engaging in a sit-in outside one of the gates where the Stryker convoys had been exiting the port." I don't know how many people were at the protest. I saw one young woman spit on the steet in front of the line established by law enforcement (not on anyone). Feel free to pick your own denominator and calculate that important percentage. Can we move on now?

Did they break the law?

If "Yes", then you are wrong and they deserve to be prosecuted.

If "No", then it is of course wrong to prosecute them. Considering the number of plea bargains, and the reasons that hilde is/was trying to use to have the cases thrown out, it sounds like they broke the law, and are perfectly aware of it. This was "civil disobedience" right? Didn't they know that they were breaking the law?

Breaking the Law | Deserving of Prosecution

If only our system held members of the Bush Administration to the same standard - then we wouldn't have a problem.

The fact that our society is so willing to let elite decision makers lie to us, and pretend there is no issue when they drive a nation to war under false pretenses, represents the real wrong.

If our society believed in holding politicians and powerful business interests accountable for harmful behavior - then we wouldn't have to argue about protesters engaging in civil resistance.

The fact that the war is illegal justifies the protesters' act of resistance. That's all there is too it.

To get in a huff about protesters blocking traffic, when our government is engaged in imperialism which has caused death and suffering for millions upon millions of people...

It's hard to find words to describe how obtuse that is, and how it is 180º opposite from common sense.






The fact that the war is

The fact that the war is illegal justifies the protesters' act of resistance. That's all there is too it.

Obviously not, or they wouldn't be facing a judge at this point. Our government is setup to have elite decision makers make our decisions, lie or not, this is the system we live in. We vote for the person we want to lie to us, and it is within that same system that our law is setup.

Bush was/is not a nice person. I believe that karma will bite him in the butt eventually. I'm not willing to break a law, and get arrested in order to draw attention to the fact that he's not a nice person. If I were willing to though, I would do so with the knowledge that I was breaking the law, and that I would probably face punishment for my crimes. I am currently thinking about going to Seattle and sitting in the park and getting arrested. It's a pretty big decision for me. I know that if I go though, even though I will be standing up for my rights, I will probably be arrested, cuffed, driven away, mugshots etc. And I will deserve it because I knowingly broke a law in order to prove my point. 

The war being illegal (your words, not mine) is not, and will not be, a justified defense in this case. Your version of "common sense" is not as common as you would like it to be.

Facing a Judge

Norm, I think the fact that they're facing a judge is proof, not of the protesters' wrong-doing, but of the ease that justice can be mis-carried in our society.

I believe, quite simply, that prosecuting these do-gooders is an abuse of prosecutorial power. That's all.






I think you and I will simply continue to disagree

What is justice for you, is crime for me, and quite possibly the opposite of that as well. Unless they were breaking the law to save their own life, or the life of others (in an immediate fashion, slowing down a shipment does not count) then they were breaking the law, and not in a justifiable way. Their prosecution is deserved in my eyes.

okay

I think they were trying to save the lives of innocent people, so it's okay that we disagree about this. Thanks Norm.






I can easily admit that I

I can easily admit that I admire your enthusiasm though, and ultimately it is toward a good cause. So thank you Berd.

Real Common Sense

The problem is that this society is completely upside down. We have a government that is beholden to special (and tremendously harmful) interests. Start there. That's the real common sense.

People's minds in America are polluted, by a culture of conquest and materialism.

People around the world are exploited, people are suffering and dying every day. And it's because of a dirty, rotten filthy culture of conquest and materialism.

That's the truth.

What we need is to hold the polluting exploitative industries accountable, and not let them harm people.

I suppose as long as we have a culture that accepts it as a regular/normal/acceptable part of the status quo, that some should profit from the suffering of others, then we will always have people who are willing to derive economic benefit from activities which are polluting, harmful, exploitative, etc...

Change the culture. That's what I way. Satyagraha. Make a society that works for everyone.

No one deserves to be treated badly.






Hateful, Vulgar and Violent

For those who criticize war protesters as hateful or violent, I strongly encourage you to view some photos of the "pro-troop" counter-protester contingent: http://www.flickr.com/photos/deaddrift/sets/72157603170206786/

nt

nt Oh, bother.

Ad Nausium, Off The Mark

This converstion has been very enlightening. I now understand why Berd dominates this blog. He is in complete control. If an arguement gets uncomfortable, he merely censors it. If these are the rules, this is the last time I'll visit Olyblog. But before I exit it is appropriate to get this issue straight. These young ladies are being prosecuted for blocking a road. All the diversionary crap about spitting, spies, etc. is not relevant. I was there. They were peaceful. Nobody will argue with that. They were trying to make a "statement" however misguided. Misguided by mentors who slink around in the background. I watched them on the first night being roused by pepper spray. Some, in a manner I thought out of line. I watched the night they were all orderly and politely arrested one at a time. That is what they wanted and that is what they got. Apparently their mentors though this would be another catch and release. But the fact of the matter is that in our and many civil societies, laws are made and not enforced routinely but sometimes to set examples. That is, unfortunately for them, what occurred on this occasion. A society that believes that the rule of law is essential cannot survive without it. These ladies will unfortunately pay the price for being misled by the local BERDs.
PKT

Criticism

Interesting criticism, Paul. Maybe you're right. Maybe I do tend to dominate conversations. I should probably learn to get my kicks elsewhere.

One thing is for sure, neither I, nor anyone else censors legitimate arguments on OlyBlog. The only censoring that occurs is of attacks that are of a personal nature, and unfortunately, those attacks are not regulated nearly strictly enough.

Your point about laws is well taken. We do have laws for a reason.

We have laws for the purpose of protecting people from getting hurt, or from hurting others. That's the point. We have laws against aggression (that is, aggressive war making.) It would be nice if our law-makers and law-enforcers would take those laws seriously - and not stick their heads in the sand when the people in the White House start telling lies about the need to attack another country.

If people in power had paid attention to the lies of the Bush Administration - maybe the lives of millions of people could have been spared. That's the severity of this issue.

I sincerely apologize if I dominate this blog. My sincerest desire would be for olyblog to be a place where everyone would feel comfortable participating in dialogue about the issues that are important to them.

You've given me some food for thought. Thank you for that.


Perceptions matter, Berd

"...neither I, nor anyone else censors legitimate arguments on OlyBlog." Odd that you would say this on this thread after censoring someone. This just doesn't ring true in the community. Just sayin'