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Levy Lid Lift, how do I vote?

Sun, 01/25/2009 - 2:52am — bdmp

I just got my mail in ballot and there is an initiative for a Levey Lid Lift. Ever since Bush's Clean Skies Initiative I am never sure how to vote on anything. I assume I should approve. Any thoughts on the matter?

Thanks

Comments

Sun, 01/25/2009 - 11:31am — CIAGuy

I wonder

if this story from Indiana is happening anywhere in the 5 county Timberland Regional Library district? I know library use is way up in Seattle and Longview. It's another reason we owe it to the library and the community to vote Yes! Library.

Librarians Become Unofficial Job Counselors

Sun, 01/25/2009 - 2:51pm — geoduck42

Another Yes

I wouldn't object to late fees, but you start charging for library cards, and you further cut poor people off from society. Not everyone can -afford- Internet access and Netflix memberships.
Sun, 01/25/2009 - 4:21pm — JulieM

I voted yes

I'm continually impressed by the awesome services provided by TRL.
Sun, 01/25/2009 - 4:27pm — Berd

Vote Yes!

Support for services designed to offset societal iniquities.





Sun, 01/25/2009 - 6:38pm — M Kretzler

Late fees are a drag on libraries

Few libraries charge late fees because they cost more to collect than they bring in and they inhibit people from returning the materials. Late fees, in spite of our from-the-hip impulses, don't increase the vitality and usefulness of libraries, but hamper their operations and remove materials from circulation. The solution is to vote Yes.
Thu, 01/29/2009 - 4:27pm — Logarithm

Sometimes you pay to support the community

Living in a community is all about shared resources. We pay to support public education regardless of whether we personally have children in school because it makes our community smarter. We pay to support the fire department, police, and ambulances even if we don't personally end up using them because it keeps our community safe and sound. And we should pay to support our libraries because it gives our community access to information.

Vote yes to help improve our community!
Sat, 01/24/2009 - 7:08am — Sarah

fact sheet

link on this page to a good fact sheet on levy
Sat, 01/24/2009 - 7:54am — emmettoconnell

Vote Yes

Tim Eyman's initiatives are shifting the sands underneath local governments, especially rural library districts. The lid lift will restore the levy rate to where it was before Eyman started throwing statewide mandate molitov cocktails through the front windows of our local governments.

full disclosure

Sat, 01/24/2009 - 11:34am — Ehver Green

No Vote

Just can't vote yes.  Not right now.  I'd prefer to see library patrons pay a modest fee to support the library instead of property owners.

Sat, 01/24/2009 - 2:25pm — emmettoconnell

modest fee (well, donations)

A lot of library users already do something like this by supporting their local friends groups. The Friends of the Olympia Library pump in thousands of dollars a month into the Olympia branch, providing resources above and beyond what public funds provide.

I should start writing more about what our particular Friends group does, but we raise money from book sales, private donations and memberships.

full disclosure

Sat, 01/24/2009 - 4:54pm — Ehver Green

Thanks, Emmett.  It's still

Thanks, Emmett.  It's still a no for me.
Sat, 01/24/2009 - 11:56am — Marcie

Late Fees

I am voting no as well. The library should first look at other options for raising funds. For example, many libraries charge a late fee for materials not returned on time. Why can't our library do this?

I am also upset that the city spent so much money on printing and sending a ballot for this one issue.  

Sat, 01/24/2009 - 3:10pm — Just another voice

Intercity Transit

I also want to know how much money was spent on holding this special vote. Intercity Transit nixed the plan to hold a special ballot to raise taxes, since:

"(Intercity Transit) would be solely responsible for paying the $250,000 cost to place the measure on a nongeneral-election ballot"
Is the library levy ballot a nongeneral-election ballot? And are they paying this fee?

But I am Just Another Voice

Sat, 01/24/2009 - 1:09pm — CIAGuy

Late fees?

Have you really thought about this? How much would a late fee need to be to cover administrative costs? In this day and age the library needs to compete against the like of Netflix, which as no late fees or due dates. As for fees for library users, what's next tuition for public school students?

There are some things worth funding that make this a nice place to live. Timberland Regional Library is certainly one of them. Where else in this community, no nation, can anyone regardless of wealth, age or any other factor walk in and get the attention and assistance of someone with an advanced degree? The services they offer, internet access, books to download, movies and instructional videos, literacy programs for young, old and non-native English speakers, reference help, reference databases, good old books and magazines...the list is a long one.

The public library is truly one of America's most democratic of institutions.

Sat, 01/24/2009 - 4:56pm — Ehver Green

The public library is truly

The public library is truly one of America's most democratic of institutions.

And yet, nobody wants to address Mr. Bragg's letter expect for Emmett.

Sat, 01/24/2009 - 5:26pm — Rob Richards

Who is Bragg?

and where can we find his letter?
Sat, 01/24/2009 - 5:45pm — Ehver Green

LTE to The Olympian on or

LTE to The Olympian on or around the 20th.  Last letter of that day.
Sun, 01/25/2009 - 3:45pm — Thad Curtz

Ken Bragg's letter...

is the last one on this page. Basically, he says lots of organizations are cutting back during the recession, that the library board's meetings deliberating the levy hike and other issues aren't made available by video or by detailed minutes, and that as a result they haven't shown that they need this hike. (Presumably, the main answer to this complaint is contained in the library's statement about why it needs the money, which is linked to earlier in this thread...)

Jim Lazar responded to an email urging a "Yes" vote somebody sent to the local Obama supporters' email list by raising other issues about Timberland's governance too - as follows:

"I support libraries, and would gladly vote for a levy lid lift to support local libraries, but I oppose this measure.

"The reason is very simple: Thurston County pays over half of the tax revenue into Timberland Regional Library, but our libraries receive only about one-third of the financial support from Timberland that goes to the total library system. While TRL pays for both the library BUILDINGS and the books and staff in the rural areas, it does NOT pay for new library buildings in the urban areas."

"Basically, it's (another) subsidy of rural communities and irresponsible land use policies, with urban area residents subsidizing rural areas."

"Furthermore, while Thurston County is 53% of the population in the TRL system, we get only two of the seven seats on the Board of Trustees. It's the ONLY taxing district that does not have democratically-elected members making decisions. Cities, Counties, Ports, PUDs, School Districts, Cemetery Districts, Parks Districts and even our own Thurston Conservation District have representation that is voter-controlled. Every one of these makes each voter's vote of equal weight. TRL does NOT have proportional representation, either by population or by source of tax revenue."

"There is legislation before the Senate to require rural library districts (of which TRL is one) have population-weighted districts."

"Until TRL is fair to Thurston County, and until they are subject to voter control, I strongly urge people to vote NO on this levy."

I voted "Yes" because I think libraries are like schools, a way to raise the understanding and sophistication of the community at large, and that having a better informed and educated community benefits everybody in it, whether or not they are in school or using the library. Most of the arguments against it above are also arguments in favor of nothing but private schools, private highways, private security services, privatizing Social Security, etc. ("I have my own gun - why should I help pay for the police force?" "I have my own stockbroker, why should I have to contribute to a public retirement fund"? Etc...

And because I don't think that rejecting the levy is an effective or appropriate way to try to make it clear that Timberland's governance needs fixing...

Best,
Thad


Sun, 01/25/2009 - 4:44pm — Thad Curtz

Ken Bragg...

served on the Timberland Library Board around 2000-2001, and has been active in trying to get the Port to make the changes to how it's using its land in Olympia which would allow it to stop needing a big taxpayer subsidy year after year.

Best,
Thad


Mon, 01/26/2009 - 10:17am — agathafrye

I beg your pardon, Ehver...

I specifically addressed Mr. Bragg's letter in the previous thread about the levy- did you not see my response? As for me, of course I'm voting YES! Thanks for Emmett for pointing out where the problem began- I couldn't bring myself to bring my favorite politician Mr. E's name into it, but I'm glad someone did...
Mon, 01/26/2009 - 1:45pm — Ehver Green

Yes, you did, and I missed

Yes, you did, and I missed it.  I read the response this morning.  Blaming Eyman now?  Yeah, that's the problem.

Mon, 01/26/2009 - 3:31pm — Berd

Roots of Disagreement

Hm, I am intrigued by your comment here and driven to wonder what the root of this disagreement might be.





Mon, 01/26/2009 - 3:42pm — Ehver Green

I've already documented it

I've already documented it here and in other library threads on Olyblog.

The fact that Eyman gets the blame when "we" voted for 747 makes it even worse.  As Emmett said, the sands have shifted, and it's time for local governments, agencies, and boards to live within their tax revenue.

Mon, 01/26/2009 - 5:49pm — CIAGuy

what ratioanl basis

is there for a 1% limit to growth? Inflation for just about everything exceeds that rate so what you are saying is not "live within your revenue" but "get ready to slowly be starved of revenue." It's a prescription for many public entities to die slowly.
Mon, 01/26/2009 - 5:54pm — Ehver Green

To which I say, RIP.

To which I say, RIP.

Mon, 01/26/2009 - 6:51pm — Laurian

Oh why stop with public entities

Death to Civil Society!
Sat, 01/24/2009 - 5:58pm — Rob Richards

I disagree with a piece of this.

Libraries are social institutions, they don't exist to compete with any for profit corporation, and serve very different functions than the likes of Netflix.
Sat, 01/24/2009 - 7:55pm — Marcie

Yes, late fees

How does the library compete with Netflix? Last time I checked, Netflix didn't send books. I know the library also has videos, but isn't the bulk of their check-outs books?

Late fees, yes. When I lived in Colorado, the library charged .05 cents a day for late materials. I don't know what percentage of returns are late at TRL or how late they are, but I bet the income would help. Plus, it solves the dilemma of increasing availability of materials to library users.

I love the library, and would love to see it become a more economically sustainable model for our community.  Maybe brainstorming ideas of how it can generate it's own income rather than depending on the public would be prudent at this time when we are all being hit hard in our wallets.  Late fees make sense to me and I would pay 'em if I got 'em.

Sat, 01/24/2009 - 8:20pm — Laurian

It is time to hang up the Privatization of Government Meme

I don't know what percentage of returns are late at TRL or how late they are, but I bet the income would help. Well Marcie how about ameliorating your ignornace and collecting the data.

There are critical functions best organized and administered by government. Schools, roads and Libraries are among those.When it comes sustainable economic models not much is more sustainable and stable than taxes.

If someone is opposed to paying more taxes for a top notch library system then by all means vote no on the levy, just don't hide behind failed anti-democratic ideas of the Right.

 

Sat, 01/24/2009 - 8:31pm — Marcie

it's spelled

it's spelled "I-G-N-O-R-A-N-C-E" Laurian. LOL
Sun, 01/25/2009 - 4:45pm — Marcie

And furthermore, Laurian...

I wasn't aware that my role as a Democrat is to just blindly accept all tax increases to fund public systems.   Forgive me for being a critical thinker and trying to offer alternatives to raising taxes, which BTW, is NOT the most "sustainable and stable" economic model.    It's certainly not "sustainable and stable" for me!  Don't schools have bake sales?  Roads have tolls?  ARen't there several models for public systems raising their own money to offset the need for levies and taxes???  

I am a library lover and am not  hiding "behind failed anti-democratic ideas of the Right" and take quite a bit of offense to your statement.  I am also not a Laurianocrat or a Demaurian, one who makes up their own requirements for being a true Democrat.  

Sun, 01/25/2009 - 6:13pm — Laurian

True, there is no Laurian Litmus test to be a Democrat

although the world would be better for it LOL.

You are also right in calling me on the tone of my comment. I had been fighting some very objectionable opinions from some dyed in the wool conservatives on another blog and brought that baggage over here. Again, Mea Culpa.

I do stand behind my belief that taxation is a good thing in that it binds communities together. It is an economic expression of our values. It is about putting our money where mouths are. 

Sun, 01/25/2009 - 10:34am — CIAGuy

Competition

with Netflix or Google doesn't occur in the market but rather in the realm of expectations. Google gets me an answer in milliseconds. Netflix lets me keep these DVDs as long as I want. But the public library takes time and actually wants its materials back by a certain date. On the flip, they have a staff of educated, trained people there to help you find what you need or want.

Libraries have responded to this by going online and offering a rich sources of information and entertainment. Timberland offers audio books for download, databases covering everything from auto repair to finance. Also if you are one of those on the other side of the Digital Divide where else can you access the internet without an out-of-pocket charge?

Marcie, I'd still like to know how the library is going to generate net income when a patron returns an item 2 days late and collects all of 10 cents. The employee taking the dime and putting it in the till has wiped out any potential gain, not to mention the accounting.

Sun, 01/25/2009 - 4:25pm — Marcie

why stop at .05 cents?

OK, CIAGuy, let's say $5.00 a week! I just pulled the .05 cents out of my memory of what the library in Colorado that I frequented charged in 1996. I'm sure it's gone up by now.

I have waited over a month for an item that someone failed to return on time and I'm sure that others have experienced similar waits.    You'd be surprised how quickly those fees, while small for some and quite large for others, would add up.  Like I've pointed out, I don't know how many people are late or the average amount of time that materials are late, and do not have access to that information, but I think it would be interesting to know if it's ever been considered.  And if so, why it's not implemented.  

Mon, 01/26/2009 - 10:35am — agathafrye

what you might not know...

Collecting late fees in itself brings a lot of extra workload on to the library staff. The administrative logistics alone that are involved in collecting late fees are huge. Library staff, who are already working with bare-bones staffing levels, would need to spend time "discussing" (read: arguing) the fees with patrons (and oh yes, they will argue...). Not to mention the general bad blood that charging patrons brings into the branches. The negative impact of charging late fees isn't worth the amount of money it would bring in to the library.

The library already charges for books that are never returned, plus a $10 fee for processing books that have been sent to collections after being out for too long.

I agree that people abuse the lack of late fees in the Timberland system by not returning materials on time, but I don't think charging late fees is the solution to the problem.

One other thing, Marcie- DVD's are hugely popular at the library. If you're curious, type in "feature films" or "foreign films" as a subject in the library catalog (ipac.trlib.org), and see how many movies TRL's system has...
Sat, 01/24/2009 - 1:44pm — Rob Richards

Vote Yes!

In times of growing uncertainty, libraries become all the more important, especially to poor and low-income people who rely on libraries for access to knowledge and information. Not to mention access to the internet and computers for job searching and resume building.

And... our local library does have fees, they aren't punitive, and they shouldn't be, you only have to pay if you actually lose an item.

I disagree with property taxes paying for things like this, there has got to be a better way, but when it comes down to it, we have to keep our library healthy. Let's give them the money they need now, and at the same time, begin reviewing and restructuring their funding streams to be more sustainable for the future, with less impact on property owners specifically. Perhaps an income tax?

Sat, 01/24/2009 - 7:58pm — Marcie

Can't think of a better reason to be punitive

What better time for punitive fees - someone's irresponsibility and disregard for their community impacting the community on the whole by limiting access to a shared resource? Seems like the perfect instance for punitive fees, particularly when the fees will go directly to improving the accessibility to those shared resources. All you have to do is be responsible and kind and return your library materials on time to avoid punitive action.
Sat, 01/24/2009 - 4:07pm — Laurian

Vote yes and get on with it

...
Sat, 01/24/2009 - 7:29pm — stevenl

Vote Yes

of course.

Timberland does a great job!

We depend on our public library out here in the hinterlands. Especially the children. 

 

Sat, 01/24/2009 - 8:57pm — JMK

I Voted No

and I agree with Marcie on this. Pay to get a library card, pay a late fee for not returning materials. Pay for the internet use there too.

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