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Submitted by Rob Richards on Sun, 01/13/2008 - 9:50pm.
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Asshat or evil clown?
Submitted by Rick on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 10:05am.Tough call.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Interesting
Submitted by JT on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 10:30am.From wikipedia, why(?) cuz I'm lazy at the moment.
The key attribute to fascism is intolerance of others: other religions, languages, political views, economic systems, cultural practices, etc.
Sounds a lot like the secular progressive movement to me.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
As a secular progressive...
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 11:57am.I'm tolerant to the extent that I'm tolerated. What does wikipedia say about that?
I have no problem with any religion (which means I'm not calling Muslims "Terrorists" anymore than Christians, et al)
I embrace the idea of the United States being multi-lingual and multi-cultural, although it seems like there is a group of people that want English as an official language and want to deport folks that came here the same way their descendents came here.
I enjoy learning about others political views. There is a difference between intolerance and disagreement.
I think wikipedia should have polled me before posting
Do you have some reason to call...
Submitted by Tschida on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 2:26pm.Christians 'terrorists'? I guess that is kind of an important question.
How does the arrival of our decendants change how we as a nation deal with those who enter this nation by breaking its laws?
Is there some reason that English should not be our national language? Doesn't a person who is fluent in english much more likely to succeed in our culture?
C.
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
I say let the maket determine
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 2:28pm.I agree with you sort of...
Submitted by Tschida on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 2:44pm.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
Well...let's see..
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 4:27pm.I could call The Army of God and the Ku Klux Klan "Christian terrorists". Instead, I just call them terrorists, although they claim to be doing "God's work" (much like a jihadist).
The original settlers in what is now known as America, didn't have passports, visas, greencards, etc. and could give a good rip about how the natives of the land felt about them. It was a bit tough to deport in those days.
Europeans seem to get along just find being multi-ligual and it seems that they succeed quite well. Of course they WANTED to be more openminded to such cultural issues.
Looky here, JT.....I think I found one of them things you was talkin' about...
I don't know much about
Submitted by Tschida on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 6:04pm.I was unaware that you were something of an armchair quarterback when it came to the immigration policies of Native Americans in the New England area of the United States. Here is a question for you though, since you seem to have some difficulty; how does something that happened between 1492 say about 1620 to 1670, have to do with immigration laws that have been put in place by elected officials in the last say fifty years? Does pointing to some one else’s bad behavior some how mitigate the disregard for the law that illegal immigrants demonstrate today?
Europe does get a long great...right now. I don't think you can make a case that this has been the situation through out European history. Rather they seem to demonstrate an inability to deal with each other peaceably, wouldn't you agree? The thing is though, people here in the United States that have immigrated from other nations and cultures, have the best chance for success if the learn English. This has been true in our nation from the time of the Revolution to “Manifest Destiny” all the way up to today.
I also appreciate other cultures heritage, and don’t want to take anything away from them. However there is a very good reason to support American culture, including the English language, as well as other things like patriotic education. Why do you suppose you are not more open minded about helping others succeed by supporting English as our national language?
C.
<p><strong><span><span> One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in. </span></span></strong></p><p>Thomas Sowell </p>
"To compare the KKK and Al Qaeda"
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 8:19am.To compare the KKK and Al Qaeda is something like apples to oranges.
Tell that to dead people. You are so caught up in the rhetoric, Chris, you've lost sense of reality.
Ah yes....IMMIGRATION LAWS - put into effect by those whose descendents got to come here and violate whoever they needed to take what what going to be rightfully theirs. Once the ruling class has THEIRS, THEN the laws come to protect THEIR rights.
As to the language issue. Yes, you might have to learn a 2nd or 3rd language if the US doesn't try to discriminate against non-English speaking people. Fit it in your schedule. Of course you can choose to alienate yourself from society because your language capabilities don't fit (sound familiar?)
Snarky? Yep. Your comment on the KKK put me over the edge, and I'm not sure why, because frankly it didn't surprise me.
You sidestepped...
Submitted by Phil Owen on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 12:20pm.The fact that one group is international and another is not does not change the fact that they both claim their violence to be religiously inspired. And we Christians have quite the history of violence, running from the Inquisition to colonialism to Protestant/Catholic clashes (from mainland Europe to Ireland) all the way through the KKK and abortion clinic bombers. Furthermore, the Church has often and egregiously stood on the side of tyrranical governments. If you want a small look at how that has affected people in one part of the world (particularly the poor - whom the Church is commissioned to protect!), read Tolstoy's "The Kingdom of God is Within You".
The problem with the violence in the world today is not that it comes from a particular religion (because it does not), but that it derives from fundamental human brokenness. We are all far too prone to violate and dishonor one another, and we use religion to justify ourselves even when doing so violates our most fundamental religious tenets.
Enough of picking on Muslims. They are human and they are flesh and blood, just like ourselves. And just like ourselves, they fall short and are at risk of having their personalities distorted and destroyed by a hurtful and violent environment - an environment that we contribute to. The fact that some show violence is not so surprising as the fact that they do not all show violence given the environment in the Middle East today. The overwhelming majority of Islamic culture is surprisingly peaceful and even friendly and welcoming to Westerners. I'm not entirely sure we could say the same for ourselves.
The Canaanite's Call
Amen, Brother
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 1:15pm.nt
That is all fine an well...
Submitted by Tschida on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 1:45pm.But it does not really reflect what is going on. If the KKK kills someone, it is universally condemned by all. If an islamo-facist kills someone, particularly a Jew, he is praised and treated as a hero by some and as freedom fighters by others. I am not here to defend the Inquisition or the people who saw it going on and did nothing about it. It was terrible and should be remembered as exactly that. This occoured centuries ago, and Islam is killing innocent people today. How many abortion doctors have been murdered? 8, 10? How many people were hunted down, convicted and jailed for these crimes? The murderers who commit these crimes are dealt with and they as people are universally rejected as they should be. Do the extremists in Islam get the same treatment? Do the ‘peaceful members’ of Islam even reject the behavior of the killers in their religion? No they say nothing. Notice a difference here? I sure do.
If some Christian group were to devise a plot to commit an act of terror that cost the lives of say 1000 or 2000 or even 3000 innocent people, the condemnation would be swift, total and permanent. Does a religion that has killed thousands upon thousands world wide get the same treatment? No, we have people saying that it is not a symptom of a false religion, but rather bad people. If as Rob Richards is so quick to point out Christianity has the same calls to violence as Islam, why then are there not similar barbaric acts of butchery. Do Christians strap explosives on them selves and kill innocent people in a local market? Do they attack military barracks, ships, or UN offices? How about trains, and planes, and ships? Most importantly I believe is the example of how Islamic fascists took some Christian missionaries hostage, or how a man was sentenced to death for converting to Christianity. How about the treatment by the government of homosexuals in Islamic nations? How can you honestly suggest that the two examples of behavior by the different religions could possibly be morally equivalent? This is why I said they are apples and oranges.
C.
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
Bravo Tcshida!!
Submitted by JT on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 1:49pm.right on the money!
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
I'm done swinging at pitches in the dirt
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 1:54pm.History isn't going to change. There is plenty of information on the internet to answer all the questions.
Would you say
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 1:56pm.Who is this question directed to?
Submitted by Tschida on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 3:14pm.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
If you believe the folks on the right
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 3:33pm.If the KKK kills someone, it
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 2:07pm.Except by other KKK and White Supremacists.
If an islamo-facist kills someone, particularly a Jew, he is praised and treated as a hero by some and as freedom fighters by others.
True, but not universally by all Muslims.
The murderers who commit these crimes are dealt with and they as people are universally rejected as they should be. Do the extremists in Islam get the same treatment?
Isn't that what are troops are supposed to be taking care of?
Do the ‘peaceful members’ of Islam even reject the behavior of the killers in their religion? No they say nothing.
Well then you haven't been looking hard, my friend.
If as Rob Richards is so quick to point out Christianity has the same calls to violence as Islam, why then are there not similar barbaric acts of butchery.
Chechnya. Bosnia. Africa.
Do Christians strap explosives on them selves and kill innocent people in a local market?
The Irish don't utilize suicide bombings but they have more freedoms to move themselves and their equipment.
Most importantly I believe is the example of how Islamic fascists took some Christian missionaries hostage, or how a man was sentenced to death for converting to Christianity.
Again, not all Muslims, and not all regions.
How about the treatment by the government of homosexuals in Islamic nations?
Don't be so sure that "Christian" governments wouldn't do the same if they could get away with it.
How can you honestly suggest that the two examples of behavior by the different religions could possibly be morally equivalent?
Because they are and rational people can see it. Your arguments are without substance. You'll acknowledge that someone who commits an atrocity in the misguided name of Christianity doesn't represent true Christians but you won't allow the same for Muslims. I can't help but feel that anyone who thinks that way is racist
Without substance?
Submitted by Tschida on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 3:00pm.I love this retort in particular, when mentioning the KKK killing someone. “Except by other KKK and White Supremacists.” I could say the same thing, "not all members of the KKK would think it is ok" but that is just foolish isn't it?
I think you are mistaken about Chechnya. Bosnia, you might notice ended with people being stopped from committing these acts, and people facing trial for their crimes. Do people, particularly on the left think that Hezbollah and Hamas should be held to account for supporting and instigating terrorism? No they think they should be rewarded by being given nation status. Does everyone think this? No it is not an absolute.
As for the denunciation of terrorism and its supporters, well for instance I don’t see CAIR denouncing with much energy the terror that goes on. How about the ‘paper of record’, the NYT’s? No, they often see the United States support for Israel as the root cause of terror in that part of the region. Is it an absolute that there are zero condemnation of terror and the people who commit it? No, I was not trying to make an absolute blanket statement like that.
As for you insulting notion that I am a racist, I would gladly point you towards the Koran to make plain why I think what I do about Islam and the ‘holy’ book that calls for the subjugation of infidels or their killing. You must feel very strong about this to call someone a racist you have never met. I understand feeling strong about things, as I have made plain before, but I resent your stooping to the level of some others on this blog. If you want to know what I think, why I think it, and debate that, then ask. I would gladly discuss it with you here or just about anywhere. Other wise I suggest you try to measure your reaction a little better in the future. I hope you will retract that small part of your comment. I believe you are smart and mature enough to 'help but think a little harder'.
C.
<p><strong><span><span> One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in. </span></span></strong></p><p>Thomas Sowell </p>
In the past you've pointed
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 5:15pm.In other situations you hold Muslims to a different standard than Christians. The same style of argument will be used to condemn one, while it's excused in the other.
Based on that I won't retract what I said I felt.
PS: Who in the world around here said they wanted Hamas and Hezbollah to be independent countries?
I might add
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 5:20pm.Excuses or context?
Submitted by Tschida on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 5:57pm.I have read and re-read the passages offered and what the do not do is change the words or intent behind the lessons of Christ. So yes, there is context to be taken into account, and if you do that, I don't see how you can come to the conclusions you do. Or the ones you seem to be clearly implying are in the New Testament. The Koran offers no such context.
As soon as Christians (Catholics Lutherans Baptists etc.) start condemning to death those who convert to any other religion, I think then you may have a point, until then...
Gug, my end game? A) That some of the stuff that passes as accepted norms or facts be disputed, and someone speaks up when they disagree, B) Re-education camps? No that would be a liberal ideal aka fascism where this all started. No instead to call what is un-holy for what it is.
Do I want people to be unable to worship in Islam, of course not. You or anyone else can worship who or what ever you want. I do want people like Professor Julio Pino at Kent State to be held to account when he openly supports terrorists, just as I want anyone who is planning Jihad or issuing Fatwas on anyone for any reason to face criminal charges. I don't want it to be socially acceptable to denigrate Christianity as morally the same as Islam. Why, because it is not true. You want to be a peaceful member of society, engaged in our culture, and not trying to subvert our laws, and then I will gladly welcome you. If you are a Christian and you ‘church’ is planning to blow stuff up, kill people, subvert our laws, and so on then those people SHOULD FACE THE SAME SCRUTINY.
C.
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
So...
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 6:13pm.I am not an expert on the Koran...
Submitted by Phil Owen on Thu, 01/17/2008 - 11:57am.or on Islamic teachings, so it is difficult for me to address your concerns here. While I'm certainly no expert on the Christian scriptures, I have spent the last couple years in relatively intensive study, so when a friend on the blog brings up concerns about the Christian faith I am in a considerably better position to address them.
You should spend some time speaking with local Muslims before jumping to these kinds of conclusions, Tschida. The Islamic Center in Lacey is very open to visitors and to people with questions and concerns. In fact, I'd say that the Muslims I've met there are a good deal stronger at hospitality, at returning insult with kindness, and even at loving enemies than most of the Christians I've met. You will be welcomed and treated with a kind of friendliness and generosity that is entirely uncommon in our culture.
Dr. Mohammed Ayub would probably be the best person to answer your questions and concerns. He has been very active in the community and has a sincere interest in correcting misunderstandings about Islam, without vitriol or bitterness. I think you will find it quite difficult to hold the same views after meeting him.
Muslims are people of the Book, and a part of our family of faith. We owe it to them, as we would owe it to our own cousins, to directly address our concerns with them before jumping to conclusions and condemning them.
The Canaanite's Call
Pearls Phil
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 01/17/2008 - 12:00pm.Thanks Phil...
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 01/17/2008 - 12:12pm.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
What is the difference between
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 01/17/2008 - 12:26pm.Are you kidding?
Submitted by JT on Thu, 01/17/2008 - 12:33pm.Keep it relevant. If you want to debate about what Christians did in years of old in comparison to Muslims in years of old, ok. But don't talk about history and current events in the same debate.
Compare radical Christians of today to radical Muslims of today. But don't create a salad of timelines in this debate.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
I could not have said it better my self JT.
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 01/17/2008 - 12:51pm.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
You really missed my point
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 01/17/2008 - 12:52pm.Okay, I'll bite.
Submitted by Phil Owen on Thu, 01/17/2008 - 1:12pm.Ever since the times of Constantine, the Church has made itself the partner to Empire. This is true today as it was fifteen hundred years ago.
It is rare to find churches that do not fly the American flag inside their worship space, and there are even some that fly it over the altar. There are some churches that allow patriotic songs to be sung in place of hymns. While one Episcopal parish was investigated by the IRS for a sermon opposing the Iraq war, many Christian congregations actively urged their members to pray for Bush to win re-election, and for a US win in Iraq.
Many clergy, in nearly every denomination, have blessed the wars waged by our nation, the soldiers fighting those wars, and even the weapons used to kill others. Though the Iraq war is flatly at odds with scriptural teachings (whether you take a pacifist view or even the "Just War" view), many clergy and theologians have strained themselves attempting to bend the "Just War" theory to fit with pre-emptive action. Just poke around the blogs to find this.
Furthermore, clergy are routinely sent with deployed soldiers for the spiritual care of those soldiers, and even sometimes for mission work. In fact, historically, wars have been one of the greatest sources of the spread of Christianity in the world.
The truth is that the Church cannot be separated from any of the mass scale violence inflicted upon the world by Western societies. The truth of this convicts us, stains our altars, and undermines our claims to being a redeemed people.
You tell me, how can an Airforce bomb blessed by a hypocritical Christian pastor be any different from a bomb belt blessed by a crazy Imam?
The Canaanite's Call
C'mon Phil,
Submitted by JT on Thu, 01/17/2008 - 1:28pm.does it really matter who is blessing what? I have yet to see a pastor or an iman kill anyone with a blessing.
Do you believe the reasons the US are in a war with radical Islam is the same or worse than the motives of radical Islam?
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Yes and yes.
Submitted by Phil Owen on Thu, 01/17/2008 - 1:43pm.First off, both sides are fighting for hegemony. The radical muslims claim to be freedom fighters (and given that they are indigenous to the area and we are not, there is a *very small* seed of truth to that claim), but it is also clear that they have broader plans. Those broader plans are hardly different than the plans of the US, which again are well laid out in the Project for a New American Century papers. It's about hegemony, dominance, and oil. Whoever holds the Middle East holds leverage on the world.
And yes, it does matter who blesses what. A blessing is a commission, a sending forth for a purpose. When a "Christian" blesses a bomb, it becomes a "Christian" bomb carrying out the "Christian" will. The violence it inflicts is therefore "Christian" violence.
Unless, of course, you believe that a blessing carries no meaning.
The Canaanite's Call
I never said a blessing
Submitted by JT on Thu, 01/17/2008 - 1:55pm.didn't carry a meaning. I said a blessing had never killed anyone.
As for your belief that the US and radical Islam are equals in their violence and goals, we are done debating. I completely disagree with you, and know you well enough we won't move each other.
So, how about those Seahawks?
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Thanks for pinch hitting Merwyn
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 3:21pm.<smile>
Everyone realizes that there are limits to tolerance
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 1:10pm.Seems to fit secular progressives
Submitted by JT on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 1:40pm.than other groups, and certainly more so than our local police. Fascist was used very liberally here on the blog to describe OPD. I don't remember you Gug chastising them for their use of the term. I could be wrong, I am old like you.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
JT, I was starting to enjoy you....
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 1:43pm.then you attack old guys.
Seriously, it must be uncomfortable between that rock and that hard place.
Let's agree the term is over-used
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 2:25pm.Oh I forgot,
Submitted by JT on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 1:45pm.my comparison of sec/progs was tongue in cheek.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Hey Larry,
Submitted by JT on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 1:46pm.us old guys can beat up each other can't we?
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
I AM the old guy....
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 1:47pm.You and Gug just play one on TV.
Nice!
Submitted by JT on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 2:53pm.Nice!
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Gug,
Submitted by JT on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 2:54pm.I would love to talk about excessive force, but I agree now is not the time.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Cool.
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 3:00pm.You guys should sit awhile
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 7:13pm.Nice,
Submitted by JT on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 9:25am.you young whipper-snapper!! :)
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
We need a break
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Thu, 01/17/2008 - 7:20am."have read and re-read the passages offered and what the do not do is change the words or intent behind the lessons of Christ."
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1101/talibanlist.html
TOP TEN BIBLICAL WAYS TO WAGE WAR AGAINST THE TALIBAN:
Dancing in Taliban Blood: God's 10 Secrets for the Perfect War!
Larry,
Submitted by JT on Thu, 01/17/2008 - 9:51am.you gave Krull shit over his posting of gun anecdotes, and threatened to post counter intel about how guns harm. Do you really want me to respond to your posts of web sites of whacked out looney Christians with some of the crap coming out of the middles east and elsewhere?
Knock it off!
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
LOL
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Thu, 01/17/2008 - 2:42pm.Uh.....I think JT missed the joke. Try the website one more time....
Of course, I suppose
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Thu, 01/17/2008 - 2:49pm.that some Christian wacko website MIGHT advertise Satan undies for ladies.
I can't help myself
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Thu, 01/17/2008 - 4:41pm.http://www.bettybowers.com/