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Submitted by JT on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 6:07pm.
Or is it? This picture is from a blogger that goes by the name Lionheart. You can read his blog here. In his blog, he claims he was inside with the ISM in Palestine. He provides some rather interesting pictures of "peaceful" ISM members. Most here will likely know this, but ISM is the group R. Corrie was a member of, or supporter, however you want to characterize her paticipation with ISM. Out of courtesy to the R. Corrie fans, on the bottom of part 3 there is the much publicized photo of Corrie's face after she died. So did he really get on the inside? Is this a darker side to ISM? The Israelis have claimed all along that ISM is a front for terrorism, and terroristic acts against them and their country. Perhaps this is some evidence of that. So is Lionheart a liar? Is this BS? I'm sure this isn't the first time ISMers and their supporters have seen his blog. Maybe they can provide proof Lionheart is FOS. I sure couldn't find that. There is mention he may be a Nazi, but elsewhere he pretty much shoots holes in that theory. |
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Pictures, huh?
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 6:50pm.You're not saying that there is a problem with people taking pictures of and with guns...are you?
Politics aside, I see a picture of gun owners smiling.
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 6:59pm.nt
This post is really reaching, JT...
Submitted by Phil Owen on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 7:01pm.I'm frankly flabbergasted that you'd be willing to post it at all. After all, this fellow clearly seems to think that "police officer" is synonymous or interchangeable with "terrorist". Those are police officers that the kids are being photo'd with, and those are police weapons (and you tell me, what kind of weapon would you want at your side if you were guarding a prisoner from Hamas or Islamic Jihad in the middle of Palestine?) that they are holding. Or do you think that cops are terrorists?!
I will give you this (*if* this story is at all true): That has to be the dumbest, most naive crowd of kids ever to work with the ISM. It was a terribly bad idea to get those photos taken. Even though they were taken with police officers, it is mighty easy for someone to pick them up as "evidence" that ISMer's are "terrorists", as has evidently happened. The local ISM coordinator was absolutely right to scold them and make them delete the photos.
Secondly, to allow an obvious nutjob like that kid to infiltrate their group would be nearly unheard of in the ISM. ISMer's get intensive training in non-violent activism (which includes the danger of infiltrators and provocateurs, as well as the fact that both Israeli and US intelligence agencies put quite a bit of work into surveiling and derailing ISM activities) before leaving for Palestine, and also when they arrive in Palestine. Even putting aside the fact that this "Lionheart" traveled to Jerusalem on a whim and without a plan, because "God told him to", the obvious truth that he can't string together two sentences into a paragraph without straining himself should have alerted the ISM that something wasn't right.
I don't believe that you are lacking in critical thinking skills, JT. You can do better than this.
The Canaanite's Call
This is my favorite picture from his blog.
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 7:20pm.Apparently, he was arrested for suspiscion of stirring up racial hatred.
Ya think?
EDIT:
Oops, my bad...
As of January 2008, he BELIEVES he will be arrested.
Link: http://lionheartuk.blogspot.com/2008/01/british-police-have-been-charged-with.html
If anyone is interested
Submitted by Norm on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 7:26pm.I wonder what he uses them for...?
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 7:29pm.I'm still coughing
Submitted by Norm on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 7:30pm.If I had
Submitted by security_six on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 7:23pm.One of those nice select fire AK's I'd be smiling too! :-) Hmph. "Shall not be infringed" must mean "except for full auto weapons"...
"It's okay to be armed"
security_six's social contract
Yawn.
Submitted by stevenl on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 6:17am.JT. You know I like and respect you. But this post is beyond the pale. Speaking for myself, I'd like to see more local, unifying, and community building posts from you. This one is just divisive. Do you want OlyBlog to serve as a local solution space, or as an ideological battleground? In the former, I think you have an especially unique voice to offer, in the latter-- well, do you really want to be there?
Questions
Submitted by Jeff Brigham on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 12:45pm.Stevel,
I am wondering;
Do you consider the following posts to “just divisive”?
Do you consider the posters to be regarding Olyblog as “as an ideological battleground”?
http://olyblog.net/dunce-keeper
http://olyblog.net/what-f-king-moron
Thank you,
Jeff Brigham
I guess JT is saying that
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 9:06pm.No, I think he is saying
Submitted by Jeff Brigham on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 10:09pm.No, I think he is saying that a terrorist-supporting group like the ISM is bad. Even when they are masquerading as "peace activists".
Jeff Brigham
Wait, I'm confused.
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 10:56pm.Let's make a sign and ask God to bless them
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 5:56am.It would be the political thing to do
Another ISM "Peace" Activity
Submitted by Jeff Brigham on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 10:31pm.In another interesting incident in 2003, Shadi Sukiya, a senior member of the Islamic Jihad terrorist group in Jenin, was arrested by IDF troops while hiding in the offices of the ISM. Several members of ISM were actively assisting him in hiding from Israeli security forces. Also in the ISM office were several weapons including Kalashnikov automatic rifles.
A good article on this so-called "peace" group is at
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID={712433FA-8D79-4880-A933-AE48F0D53278}
Jeff Brigham
from wikipedia
Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 10:47pm.Shadi Sukiya is a Palestinian who was captured by the Israel Defense Forces in Jenin on March 27, 2003. According to Israel, he was a senior Islamic Jihad member [1], [2].
The main reason this is of interest to the wider world is that he was arrested in a building used by a number of organisations, including the International Solidarity Movement.
The ISM's statements and those of the Israeli government both state that Sukiya arrived at the ISM's office as he was being pursued through the streets of Jenin by IDF soldiers during an Israeli-imposed curfew. According to the ISM's account, he had being going door to door looking for a place to go, arrived at the building (which is also used by the Red Cross and Medecins Sans Frontieres) cold and wet, and was offered a chance to dry and warm up by an ISM volunteer.
The IDF originally suggested that two Kalashnikov assault rifles and a handgun were found on the premises, but subsequently backtracked on the allegation (it appears the weapons were found during the operation, but not in the ISM's building).
In May 2003 the ISM's Adam Shapiro stated that Sukiya was not named a "senior Islamic Jihad terrorist" by any official Israeli military or government source, and was being held in administrative detention in Israel without any charge. However, ISM members have admitted that they have worked on non-violent protests with members of Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad [3]. The position of the ISM regarding suicide bombings is condemns all violence that targets civilians, regardless of the religion or race of the target.
ISM's description of this event...
Submitted by Phil Owen on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 11:05pm.can be found here.
They found a stranger who was cold and wet and knocking on their door. They let him in. Doesn't sound quite like the sinister plotting to support terrorist activities that some have accused them of.
Does ISM protect terrorists?
Those who wish to silence our voices have accused the ISM of “harboring and protecting terrorists.” The Israeli government has worked to make every Palestinian man, woman and child out to be a suspected “terrorist.” This is the Israeli government’s justification for the brutal force it has been using against a largely unarmed population. It is the rationale for using collective punishment, for keeping Palestinians locked up in their towns and villages, and for stripping people of their human rights. The ISM supports Palestinian communities in protesting collective punishments such as checkpoints, roadblocks, massive round-ups, curfews and home demolitions, and encourages popular nonviolent actions against them. For this reason, volunteers with the ISM are falsely accused of “protecting terrorists.”
There are two specific incidents which are often cited in attempts to discredit the ISM:
The first incident occurred on March 27th 2003. Jenin had been placed under a military curfew for several days. Israeli military patrols were arresting people on site regardless of their reason for being out of their homes. 23-year-old Shadi Sukiya appeared at the ISM office in Jenin in the middle of the night. He was soaking wet, shivering and terrified. The ISM members present did not speak sufficient Arabic and Sukiya spoke no English. He was given a change of clothes, a hot drink and a blanket.
Soon afterwards Israeli soldiers entered the building and arrested Sukiya. The soldiers that entered the ISM office systematically damaged much of the personal belongings of the ISM volunteers there. Despite later claims that they had been in a dangerous situation, the soldiers took the time to pile the volunteers’ clothing on the floor and break raw eggs on top of them. In briefings made to the Associated Press, the Israeli military claimed that Sukiya was senior member of the Islamic Jihad, a pistol had been discovered in the ISM office and that two ISM volunteers were hiding Sukiya. By the time that the military left the building and the immediate area, all of the ISM volunteers in Jenin were present either in the office or outside the building. None of them were detained, arrested or even seriously questioned, indicating the absurdity of the later claims made by the military.
When asked for proof of the allegations, the military changed its story: “The information originally released was wrong,” said an Israeli military spokesperson and it was now “unclear” where the pistol had been found. Somewhat chastened, the Associated Press, which had originally run the story, published a retraction on March 29th 2003, entitled “Army backtracks on details about militant arrest at International Solidarity Movement.”
The second incident occurred on Friday, April 25th, 2003 when the ISM held a public memorial service for Rachel Corrie, an American ISM volunteer crushed to death by an Israeli military bulldozer. About 15 minutes prior to the service a group of six British citizens arrived at the ISM apartment including two young British Muslims, Asif Hanif and Omar Khan Sharif. The other four British citizens were hoping to organize a summer camp in Gaza in conjunction with local Palestinians from Rafah, three Italians, and some others. The ISM group of five people offered the visitors tea, and after about 15 minutes of small talk everyone left to attend the service. Anyone – Palestinian, Israeli or international – was free to come and pay their respects. Hanif and Sharif were later described as a quiet pair, saying little except to claim that they were “alternative tourists.” A few minutes after the service began, an Israeli military tank appeared and used smoke and tear gas to scatter the mourners. Hanif and Sharif left and were not seen by or in contact with anyone with the ISM again.
Shortly thereafter, the two carried out a suicide bombing. Their entire association with ISM had been for less than an hour. Before attending the service, the two had never made contact with the ISM, never registered to join us and never attended our mandatory training and orientation.
The claim that the International Solidarity Movement “protects terrorists” is untrue and is only maintained by those who seek to discredit the thousands of principled volunteers from around the world who are bearing witness to the cruelty of occupation and working non-violently to bring it to an end. It is one of a series of claims that attempts to discredit ISM volunteers and should not be taken seriously.
The Canaanite's Call
The truth always comes out:
Submitted by Phil Owen on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 11:00pm.From this page on the ISM website:
Is it true that ISM volunteers were photographed holding guns and posing with members of armed resistance groups?
No. At ISM’s training in Palestine, as a condition for joining ISM in Palestine, all activists are required to commit to supporting only non-violent resistance. At the training, all activists are also instructed never to touch any weapon, or even anything that resembles a weapon.
In September 2006, photos were posted on the internet showing five foreigners posing with members of the Palestinian police in Jericho while holding their weapons, along with the claim that four of the foreigners were volunteers with the ISM. The article accompanying the photos also claimed that the fifth, unnamed foreigner (whose name we have since learned is Paul Cinato) with the obscured face in the photos went undercover in order to try and sabotage those, such as the ISM, who support Palestinian non-violent resistance.
At the time the photographs were taken, these individuals had not yet become ISM volunteers. They went to Jericho of their own volition without coordinating or discussing their plans with the International Solidarity Movement. They had not attended ISM’s mandatory intensive non-violence training and were new to the country. The fifth foreigner encouraged them to join him in the photographs and have their pictures taken holding guns. These individuals regrettably followed his lead.
Upon learning of this incident, ISM activists informed these individuals that touching weapons violates ISM?s policies and that they would not be permitted to volunteer unless they agreed never to handle weapons. All except Cinato apologized and deleted the photographs of future ISM volunteers. Cinato did not attend ISM training and subsequently disappeared. Following their training, the others worked diligently and without incident with the ISM and Palestinian communities in support of non-violent direct action. [Emphasis mine -Phil]
The Canaanite's Call
By their own admission,
Submitted by JT on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 5:03am."The position of the ISM regarding suicide bombings is condemns all violence that targets civilians"
Doesn't sound like they are completely peaceful to me.
And where is the official condemnation of the rocket launches from Gaza into civilian areas recently. If they are silent on acts of violence they say they condemn, they really are giving silent approval.
ISM is FOS just like PMR.
I'm out on this issue. I'M confident in what ISM is about, and it solidifies my opinion of R. Corrie.
On to other things.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
I'm out on this issue. I'M
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 8:15am.You were the one that posted this. When people countered the information your response was "I'm outta here". Seeing as how you didn't feel like hearing anything from anyone, and knowing what kind of reaction you would have gotten for posting this, it makes me curious what your point and intent was.
My point Merwyn,
Submitted by JT on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 8:27am.was summed up in my last post. ISM is full of it, I believe at a minimum they are a bunch of dopes that are being duped. And more likely they have willfully chosen sides in a conflict to include being cozy with terrorists.
Further, some here think that ISM is just a peaceful group, and clearly they are not. They are not by their own admission, see above, and they are by omission. They have not make a statement of condemnation of the acts of terror from Palestine recently. I doubt they have ever made such a statement, perhaps Phil, Phan, or you can produce evidence of that history.
I know full well the regular liberal posters here are locked in on their belief system about Corrie and ISM, as I am to the other side. But there are lurkers and visitors that come to Olyblog that can read what I have posted, and linked to. They can make up their own minds which side of the conflict they want to be on. There is so much info that exposes ISM for what they really are, it's amazing. Is some of it biased, yes, but that doesn't mean it isn't true.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Anyone see that huge piece
Submitted by NWarty on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 7:25am.Anyone see that huge piece on the ISM in The Stranger several years back? Very eye-opening article. It came out right after the Corrie incident.
EDIT: Found the link: http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=13822
Sad to see Olyblog
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 9:30am.subjected yet again to the worst the internet has to offer because JT is more interested in polemics than an honest attempt to investigate an issue. There is no arguing with someone who can believe "X is true becasue there is no proof that X is not true," so I suggest you all focus on the source. For instance, the source JT so respectfully recommends to his friends here at Olyblog includes this appalling graphic:
What's next JT, a sign that says
"God Bless Arab Abortionists?"
I'll crank up Photoshop this weekend and create a nice version of that sign so you can see how it looks.
Typical,
Submitted by JT on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 3:19pm.Attack the side banners rather than deal with the issue. That's fine, I expected it. The fact you take issue with the artwork on the webpage Gug, doesn't diminsh the simple fact that ISM isn't all they would like people to believe.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Well JT,
Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 3:28pm.Remove yourself from the subject of Israel vs. Palestine for a moment, or imagine you were of the opposite opinion that you are, and look at this guy's site, he's obviously got a bone to pick. How would that imagery make you react? Anything he posts there is suspect because of the extreme bias he shows.
"ISM isn't all they would like people to believe."
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 3:29pm.That is fine Gug,
Submitted by JT on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 3:44pm.if you want to point things out for the audience, which is yours too. But if it is for that purpose there is no need to address the comment to me then.
As for the issue of bias, there certainly isn't any bias here on Olyblog FOR ISM is there?
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Not from me.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 3:49pm.Me too Rob
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 3:53pm.I have heard it said that through an earnest conversation
Submitted by Mike on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 6:28pm.we will be able to help others come to a better understanding of things. Attacking JT because he may be posting inaccurate information harms that conversation. I would like to see the conversation model demonstrated in this instance because it has been suggested rather strenuously to me when I have been too hard on JT on the global warming "conversation."
I have learned the error of my ways in that regard and now feel like I want to shepherd a conversation along here. Everybody put on their slippers and let's converse! I am sure we can work out the kinks with a more conversant model that clears the air.
I think that JT and Jeff are truly interested in conversing on these knotty matters, why else would they be here?
I had never heard of them or Lionheart till...
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 3:57pm.Well Rob,
Submitted by JT on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 4:20pm.I don't see this as a false report, maybe you do. Does this post lead to a smoking gun, nope. But if ISM is any good at all at shielding themselves from bad press, it wouldn't be easy to come up with a smoking gun would it?
And the challenge is still out there, where are the statements of condemnation from "peaceful" ISM about the acts of violence by the Palestinian terrorists? Even one such statement would be nice, but in reality if they really are about peace, every significant act of violence by either side should be followed by a statement of condemnation from ISM.
ISM's acts of omission speak louder than any picture here on this blog, or scribblings by Mr. Lionheart and his bias pen.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Are any of his claims supported by any other evidence?
Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 4:59pm.Would you ever be satisfied?
Submitted by JT on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 5:12pm.I doubt it. If you didn't find fault with an author, or a camera man's lighting, you would always want more, or denigrate what was presented.
But if you don't like Lionheart's info, and report, then just look at ISM themselves. They have statements that are clear they are not peaceful. And they do nothing measurable to control the violence from Palestine. They are as much part of the problem as any group in the mix over there.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
What a mess guys
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 5:14pm.Yargh...
Submitted by security_six on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 10:21pm.I for one have learned more than I have cared to lately about Palestine. I still believe the same thing though. That you have two groups of people who HATE each other with an unholy passion who just happen to share the same homeland, and have guns. These peoples have been fighting this SAME WAR for thousands of years. It ain't going to end soon.
This being said who is right and who is wrong? From the very begining, Israel's very existence was threatened. They have fought the only way possible when SURROUNDED BY ENEMIES. Fight hard, fight often, fight dirty, but by all means fight. From the Israeli viewpoint, and based on past events this is a battle for their very existence. What is going on is a total war designed to break the enemy's will, their ability to fight, their ability to resist, because anything else throughout nearly all of recorded history has failed.
Is it screwed up? You bet. But I'll bet money it will still be going on generations from now.
That said, I do not believe JT is doing anything I don't see elsewhere on here. Posting semi biased information to prove a particular point. The difference is that this information is of a more unpopular sort. Sloppy research? Sure, but we've all done that at some point in our lives. I have been doing research of one form or another since grade school. I know better. If I am lazy in citing my sources, it is because I am lazy. But put to the task, I'll produce sources.
Nevertheless there are numerous "facts" on the net, and it is often necessary to look at something from several angles. "Official" statements may not be true either. I recall someone questioning a official Israeli statement I posted about the blockade, regarding if the official was actually telling the truth. Perhaps the ISM isn't always being forthright either. I don't know, and really don't care. They can all blow each other up for all that it matters to me. Of course while it may be socially acceptable to wonder if an official from ISRAEL is telling the truth, I imagine questioning an ISM statement isn't.
At any rate this is my two cents (adjusted for inflation)...
"It's okay to be armed"
security_six's social contract
a thought experiment
Submitted by enpen on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 10:49pm.From the very beginning, Israel's very existence was threatened. They have fought the only way possible when SURROUNDED BY ENEMIES.
Looking at the turmoil there through this prism seems too narrow of a view to me. Let's imagine America the crumbled empire. Now let's imagine the world's super powers decide that the Pueblo nation needed to be established in Texas, that they get the vast majority of arable land in the nation-rebuilding-exercise and that Dallas is 3/4 theirs. Is it that Puebloland would be fighting for its existence while surrounded by enemies, or would you say that the Pueblos, with international aid, forced their way into re-existence thus surrounding themselves by people who would now consider them enemies but who didn't previously really give a damn?
Okay
Submitted by security_six on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 11:13pm.If they forced their way back into existence, they are free to exert whatever claim they can on land they may have had a title to. Since the former colonial government ceded land to the Israeli peoples, what can you do about it? The Brits took the land from the arabs who took it from jews, who had been fighting the arabs for thousands of years over it off and on. Through a few other empires in over the years, Rome, and whatnot and you make for an interesting thought experiment. It seems to me the only common thing throughout history there is if you want the land you have to hold it by force. The Israelis were driven out, and forced their way BACK IN. It's nothing new.
Let's focus on internal American problems instead of interal Palestinian problems. There are still people going to bed hungry and many Native peoples lead a horrible psuedo exitence on their reservations. I would say the plight of the Sioux on the Pine Ridge Reservation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Ridge_Reservation is of more importance than what is going on half a world away. When there are not places in the United States called "worst in the Northern Hemisphere" and compared to impoverished third world countries, then let's worry about other peoples. Let's finish making the United States great before trying to babysit a bunch of arabs and israelis who were killing each other for generations before you and I came along.
"It's okay to be armed"
security_six's social contract
I agree and I don't
Submitted by enpen on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 11:30pm.Let's finish making the United States great before trying to babysit a bunch of arabs and israelis who were killing each other for generations before you and I came along.
I agree that we should be addressing our egregious problems at home. I disagree with the babysitting characterization of what our government has been doing over there in our name. We are instigating things there. We are trying to ensure a minimally impeded supply of the a region's mineral wealth through our support of a Spartan state, and a ruthless and corrupt oligarchy.
I don't think we're far off, you and I. I think I'm just getting picky with the language, but it's because I believe the truth values we inherently place on things with language allows apathy to develop with regard to these issues. We must care about Israel and Palestine because it is in large part our country and our policies that are responsible for the continual blood shed on both sides there. Israel could not be Israel without America. At least not in our time.
Israel could not be Israel without America.
Submitted by JT on Sat, 01/26/2008 - 4:29am.so true, they are surrounded by enemies on all sides, the center of a cesspool of hate. This country is their best friend with few others to assist them. Given Israel is in the situation they are in, in the area they are in, clearly they are the victims, not the suspects.
As for bias, I openly admitted to my bias when we started talking about R. Corrie and ISM. But others here seem to refuse to accept they are bias as well.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Yup
Submitted by security_six on Sat, 01/26/2008 - 10:14am.But others here seem to refuse to accept they are bias as well.
Local progressive protester gets run over by a bulldozer and things are never the same afterwards. Israel = Bad. Caterpillar Tractors = Bad. Nearly any other group of people would acknowledge an act of questionable intelligence. The Oly progressives want to sue Cat. Gotcha.
"It's okay to be armed"
security_six's social contract
"All your bias are belong to us!!"
Submitted by Guglielmo on Sat, 01/26/2008 - 10:42am.really?
Submitted by enpen on Sat, 01/26/2008 - 10:53am.Why not hold the nations and people responsible who forcefully erected the Israeli state in a place that would ensure future bloodshed on all sides? I have a difficult time painting Israel as a victim, here. Now the people that are regularly getting killed because world governments are playing politics and trade routes, that's another matter entirely. I don't want another mortar shell to fall, I don't want another sniper victim, I don't want any more siege, I don't want any more suicide bombings, etc., etc., etc. And our country is directly responsible for this ongoing cycle of violence. It's just a reality of the geopolitical stage. As American tax payers you and I are responsible for the anger behind every single person killed due to this conflict.
Fact vs. Fiction
Submitted by Phil Owen on Sat, 01/26/2008 - 11:53am.Let's get our history straight here.
The Arabs were not the cause of the Diaspora. The Diaspora happened, on mass scale, following the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in the first century AD. Rome destroyed the Temple following a Judean uprising, and drove the Jews out into various pockets of the empire.
There have been, since that time, and up until the time that Britain took control of Palestine, a handful of Jews remaining in Palestine, known as Sephardic Jews. They did indeed suffer a good deal of persecution over the centuries, but probably not nearly the kind of persecution that the Jews in Europe experienced.
With a very few exceptions lasting a few years each (centered around the Crusades from Europe), Palestine largely existed in the hands of the Muslim world from the time of Islam's creation. They haven't been "fighting over it for thousands of years"; Muslims controlled the land pretty steadily for one and a half millenia.
This changed with World War 1 when, with ambivalent and spotty blessings from the British Empire, European Jews began colonizing Palestine in large waves. These waves of colonization, with the Western influences they carried, caused massive unrest among the Palestinians that did not exist before, in spite of the fact that the Sephardic Jews (read: indigenous or non-Western Jews) had lived in Palestine for millenia.
The conflict in Palestine has often been described as a religious based war between roughly equal opponents who have been battling for thousands of years and who each stake legitimate claims to the land because they've each been there fighting over it for millenia. This is a fairy tale.
This conflict is truthfully one of indigenous resistance to Western colonization and control, and has only existed for about 90 years -with massive escalations in 1948 and 1967.
The Canaanite's Call
One thing is for sure...
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 11:57pm.amen
Submitted by enpen on Sat, 01/26/2008 - 1:11am.[...]
In the Book of Joshua, the
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Sat, 01/26/2008 - 11:45am.It's one of the earliest reports of pure Genocide and Israel was proud of it. 3500 years later not much has changed.
Let's be careful about bringing in Scripture...
Submitted by Phil Owen on Sat, 01/26/2008 - 12:00pm....without also bringing in Rabbinic scholars to shed light on it. I don't see a modern-day justification for genocide in the story of the invasion of Canaan, and somehow I doubt that many Jews would read it into that story either.
The Canaanite's Call
Still waiting,
Submitted by JT on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 5:16pm.for an example of anytime ISM made a public statement of condemnation against Palestinian terrorists.
There have been countless times ISM could have done this, and should have done this, all I'm asking for is once.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
How is the statement
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 5:53pm.Nope
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 5:56pm.You can use terrorist tactics and acts against military targets. USS Cole anyone?
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
That not terrorism. Sorry
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 5:59pm.So would that mean that ISM
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:04pm.Well
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:18pm.It depends on if you are a Democrat, Republican or Redneck :-p
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
Norm
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 8:13pm.I've got a grip Jim
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 11:16pm.how about you?
The ISM is perfectly ok with the harming of US soldiers, true or false? I'm not talking about the Cole, I'm talking about your comment regarding terrorism and the ISM's unwillingness to attack women/children and civilians etc. Does this mean soldiers are A-ok?
Norm, you need to remember
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 10:39am.JT's question. That's what we're talking about. He wanted one example of ISM condemning terrorism. I provided it. Why is that not enough?
As for your question...ubber lame. And this is why. The ISM is perfectly okay with spreading chunky peanut butter all over my ass and duct taping me naked to a Douglas Fir tree in Capital Forest: true or false Norm? Come one buddy, answer the question. Funny, there is always another questin, isn't there?
I asked a separate question
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 12:25pm.You're welcome Norm
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 1:14pm.Gee
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 5:47pm.Why Norm...
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 9:02pm.The ISM
Submitted by Phil Owen on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 10:32am.does not support or engage in violent activities, whether they be terrorism or legitimate armed defense. The ISM very explicitly opposes terrorism. And while the ISM does not support legitimate armed defense, it does recognize the right of any society to legitimate armed defense.
So about US soldiers, the answer to your question is a resounding no. Unless the soldiers were actively invading Palestine and shooting Palestinian families, in which case the answer is still "no", but you would also not see ISM members condemning Palestinians for protecting themselves. Get it?
The Canaanite's Call
Thank you Phil
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 12:23pm.Oh, don't worry...
Submitted by Phil Owen on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 3:52pm.we'll just wait till we're at the Broho and I've got a few drinks in me to get to that part.
;)
The Canaanite's Call
No Gug,
Submitted by JT on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:31pm.n/t
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Perhpas you could write a sentence
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 8:27am.JT,
Submitted by Phil Owen on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 11:00am.I apologize for the severity of some of my comments to you over the ISM threads. I've thought about, and identified I think, the source of my defensiveness here.
Your comments make it clear that you believe that the ISM are terrorist sympathizers. It's my friends, Will Hewitt being a particularly close friend, that you are speaking about here. It is easy to infer from this, then, that you believe that I am an accomplice to terrorist sympathizers? Is this what you think of me?
I know that we've only met in person once, and that you were participating in my arrest at the time. But given the circumstances (and in spite of the behavior of my peers, for which I must apologize), I was really pretty polite and even friendly, wasn't I? If I could be friendly to the police who arrested me, how could I sympathize with or give any support to the kind of hatred in which terrorism is rooted?
The Canaanite's Call
Phil,
Submitted by JT on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 5:27pm.you have very valid reasons to be angry or frustrated with me and my position on ISM. I accept your appology, but really I don't believe you owe me one. Perhaps some others here do, but certainly not you.
As for your behavior when we met, although I don't remember you, all there were kind and passive. I understand you putting your rep on the line for the ISM, and I don't take that lightly. You are one of a couple people here on this blog that does walk his talk.
My rub with ISM is that I get the sense, in general, from their supporters here, are believed to be a peace loving group. Their mission statement conflicts with that (Gug), and their lack of condemnation of violent acts against first civilians, and violence in general also is in conflict with a peaceful organization. I see they are accepting of some violence, but why no condemnation of violence against civilians?If they are ok with that, that is their business, there is a war over there. But don't profess to be one thing and do another.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will