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Submitted by pmenendez on Sat, 02/16/2008 - 11:05pm.
Washington won’t become the 40th state to authorize police checkpoints as a way to catch drunk drivers - at least, not this year. My question for Rep. Brendan Williams is: Since when did driving become a "right", and not a privilege?
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Well Williams is good for something...
Submitted by security_six on Sat, 02/16/2008 - 11:17pm.And DUI roadblocks would not stand a constitutional protection in this state. They reek of Eastern Bloc style tactics anyhow. It will not be a far stretch to have roadblocks with government agents carrying submachine guns demanding papers for any reason they feel like.
.45/70 Government (The only Government I trust!)
And you are basing this on the Constitution??
Submitted by pmenendez on Sat, 02/16/2008 - 11:31pm.The Washington State Constitution....
Submitted by security_six on Sat, 02/16/2008 - 11:57pm.SECTION 7 INVASION OF PRIVATE AFFAIRS OR HOME PROHIBITED. No person shall be disturbed in his private affairs, or his home invaded, without authority of law.
This silly little section is what killed Seattle's DUI checkpoints.
Now lets couple this protection with the Federal Constitution..
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Again such silly words like "...probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation....describing the place to be searched...." You really can't describe ALL cars along a given road.
I don't see how DUI checkpoints at all can survive the 4th at all.
What other invasions into our private affairs do you wish the state to conduct. If some jack booted thug knocks on your door at three in the AM to check for the presence of illegal drugs, do you invite him in or tell him to get the hell off your porch?
.45/70 Government (The only Government I trust!)
Actually..
Submitted by pmenendez on Sun, 02/17/2008 - 12:11am.The question is about automobiles (heavy machinery) being operated in public, on public roads..
A car is not a private residence..
And again, the car is operating on a public road, not a private road..
As far as the applicability of the 4th on DUI stops, this apparently has not stopped 39 other states from adopting these same laws..
And they have yet to be struck down..
It is also a question
Submitted by security_six on Sun, 02/17/2008 - 12:40am.Of being able to check (search) and exam (detain) drivers within their vehicle. What is inside a vehicle has commonly been held to be private unless due process (search warrant, driver being arrested, etc...) has been followed.
Being on a public road does not remove rights to privacy inside a vehicle. Seattle's DUI checkpoints were thrown out because of the state constitution.
A person cannot be pulled over without reasonable cause in this state. We have a higher standard of privacy than the Federal Government or most states.
I am not a lawyer, I only know what I have read, and had explained to me. A couple of legislators emailed me on this subject when I contacted them about me, and both and doubts as to the constitutionality of checkpoints. I will try and find the Seattle case for you.
Given your statements I assume you think government can stop anyone anytime for any reason on a public road?
.45/70 Government (The only Government I trust!)
no..
Submitted by pmenendez on Sun, 02/17/2008 - 1:06am.I dont think the police should be able to arbitrarily pull people over for no reason..
However, I do not think that a DUI checkpoint should be considered "no reason"..
Its a very specific reason..
The State of Washington has a duty to screen its public roadways for drunk drivers, who are operating heavy machinery while impaired..
There are already ways to do that
Submitted by security_six on Sun, 02/17/2008 - 6:58pm.It's called patroling. I for one refuse to sacrifice my liberty, and my privacy for some dubious notion of "safety"
It's always a slippery slope. First they convince you it's okay to pull everyone over for DUI. Then it's for drugs or illegal aliens. Then it's for illegal guns, then it's to check papers, then it's for whatever damn reason they can think of. Time to nip the loss of liberty in the bud.
.45/70 Government (The only Government I trust!)
You do not have the liberty to drive..
Submitted by pmenendez on Sun, 02/17/2008 - 7:37pm.There is no such a thing as the "liberty" to drive a car..
There is only the state granted privilege of driving a car..
The other stuff you are bringing up has nothing to do with the article, and I dont have the energy to remind you of that again..
Are you always this
Submitted by security_six on Sun, 02/17/2008 - 7:58pm.Ignorant of due process? Or just when you have been convinced it is for your own good? Is this the brainwashing government hands out today?
A cop cannot pull someone over on a whim. Probable cause must be articulated that a crime has been committed. Once pulled over you or your vehicle cannot be searched without further articulation of crime that would enable the officer to place you under arrest. Without cause detainment, inspection, search and interogation...
So tell me how simply driving through a given area gives probable cause.
And show me where in the constitution it says the state has a duty to keep the roads safe.
And I for one grow weary of trying to explain the slippery slope that comes from surrending too many liberties, too many safeguards in the name of security.
.45/70 Government (The only Government I trust!)
MICHIGAN DEP'T OF STATE POLICE v. SITZ, 496 U.S. 444 (1990)
Submitted by pmenendez on Sun, 02/17/2008 - 10:31pm.U.S. Supreme Court
No. 88-1897
Feb. 27, 1990
June 14, 1990
Chief Justice REHNQUIST delivered the opinion of the Court.
This case poses the question whether a State's use of highway sobriety checkpoints violates the Fourth and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution. We hold that it does not..Bully for Michigan
Submitted by security_six on Sun, 02/17/2008 - 10:36pm.Michigan is not Washington. One thing constantly (deliberatly?) overlooked is that WASHINGTON STATE AFFORDS A HIGHER LEVEL OF PRIVACY PROTECTION THAN NEARLY ANY OTHER STATE IN THE UNION AND GREATER THAN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
Since WASHINGTON STATE has such stringent protections it will take a special act of the Legistature and probably a court challenge before DUI checkpoints become legal. It's a catch 22 though. Courts say a law by the legislature would probably suffice and pass constitutional muster. Lawmakers I spoke with say the bill wouldn't pass constitutional muster so they don't take it out of committee, but if the legislature passes a bill, that may pass constitutional muster, but they don't think it does.... confusing ain't it?
I spoke with Rep's Hunt and Williams about this, and they both told me they felt the bill would have serious constitutional issues. I may still have their emails if you want to see them.
You may find it informative to study the Washington State constitution and any information about it's origins and the high level of protections it affords. It is an amazing document.
God God God/Won't you lead us through this mess/God God God/From the places of concrete
God God God/Nothing's worse than ignorance/God God God/I just won't accept defeat
Lets hear it:
Submitted by pmenendez on Sun, 02/17/2008 - 10:43pm.You have been trying to convince me for 2 days that DUI checkpoints violate the 4th Amendment..
Its all on record in the thread..
Are you willing to finally concede you were wrong?
I mentioned the 4th once
Submitted by security_six on Sun, 02/17/2008 - 10:57pm.Because I think the Supremes are wrong by saying it doesn't apply. However I have been beating the same drum of state protections over and over and over again. If this is the best you can do....
God God God/Won't you lead us through this mess/God God God/From the places of concrete
God God God/Nothing's worse than ignorance/God God God/I just won't accept defeat
Actually..
Submitted by pmenendez on Sun, 02/17/2008 - 11:15pm.You incorrectly referred to both the 4th & 14th Amendments to bolster your argument..
And the best that I can do is just to prove you wrong by demonstrating that DUI checkpoints are, in fact, Constitutional..
Not in this state they aren't
Submitted by security_six on Sun, 02/17/2008 - 11:19pm.You keep missing the single greatest point I keep making. THE WASHINGTON STATE SUPREME COURT HAS FOUND THAT DUI CHECKPOINTS ARE CURRENTLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL IN THIS STATE. I'm not talking about the 39 unfortunate states that have them. I'm TALKING ABOUT THIS STATE, THAT DOES NOT HAVE THEM.
So I incorrectly referenced the 4th and 14th. Big deal. IT DOESN'T CHANGE ANYTHING IN THE STATE OF WASHINGTON. GOT THAT? THE STATE OF WASHINGTON.
God God God/Won't you lead us through this mess/God God God/From the places of concrete
God God God/Nothing's worse than ignorance/God God God/I just won't accept defeat
Great..
Submitted by pmenendez on Sun, 02/17/2008 - 11:47pm.So we can both agree that DUI checkpoints do not violate the 4th & 14th Amendments, counter to what you have claimed..
So now we are just left with the State of Washington.
In this case, I agree with WA State Justice James Dolliver when he stated in City of Seattle v. Mesiani, 755 P.2d 775 (Wa. 1988):
"I believe a sobriety checkpoint program, properly authorized by statute or ordinance, could be designed which would violate neither Const. art. 1, 7, nor the Fourth Amendment.."
So now it is just a matter of crafting the proper legislation that fits this criteria..
I will be encouraging Gov. Gregoire to continue her leadership on this important issue..
I still believe
Submitted by security_six on Sun, 02/17/2008 - 11:48pm.The Majority Opinion in the Michigan case flys in the face of the constitution. Read the minority in the case. It's interesting.
Will you ask Gregoire to craft any other legislation that will erode our rights and inconvience us in the dubious name of "security and safety"?
You live and learn. At any rate, you live. -- Douglas Adams
Good..
Submitted by pmenendez on Sun, 02/17/2008 - 11:59pm.Your personal opinion regarding the Supreme Courts ruling in MICHIGAN DEP'T OF STATE POLICE v. SITZ, 496 U.S. 444 (1990)
+ 25 cents
Will get you a bag of Funyuns.. (All empty "security & safety" rhetoric aside..)
I guess
Submitted by security_six on Mon, 02/18/2008 - 2:51pm.Siding with the dissenting side isn't worth much is it? Not all the supremes agreed with you.
BTW, regarding the value of supreme court decisions I have two words for you. Dredd. Scott. They can reverse themselves.
This could get challenged again in a few years and the outcome could be very different.
At any rate enjoy your dubious promise of safety through government interfernace in private lives. I'll enjoy my liberties.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
SS
Submitted by pmenendez on Mon, 02/18/2008 - 11:28pm.Talk is cheap..
Im not going to waste my time explaining to you anymore that driving a car is simply a nanny-state sponsored activity..
But like I said, talk is cheap..
Ive already burned my drivers license, 15 years ago..
I challenge you to either do the same, or get a life and troll someone else's post..
(Rick, lock this thing down please, I dont have time to revisit to this nothingness of an argument..)
Never had
Submitted by security_six on Mon, 02/18/2008 - 11:29pm.A driver's license. So sorry. Anyway if you think defending a point of view is trolling that's fine.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
shit..
Submitted by pmenendez on Mon, 02/18/2008 - 11:35pm.We have both made our points already, so lets let it go..
There is nothing more being learned, so we are just getting diminished returnes..
Bringing up Dredd Scott is just silly and inapropriate..
Im lying in a hospital bed after getting hit and nearly killed by a drunk driver driving a f-150..
Dredd Scott is the last thing I want to hear right now..
Ahh...
Submitted by security_six on Mon, 02/18/2008 - 11:39pm.I didn't realize your circumstances. Sorry. I don't register screen names in my head sometimes. Sorry about your incident. I have a friend who is a hit and run victim as well.
Get well soon!
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
Its cool..
Submitted by pmenendez on Mon, 02/18/2008 - 11:43pm.I like a good argument/discussion too..
Im just at sort of a disadvantage right now (especially with the pain meds kicking in..)
Understood
Submitted by security_six on Mon, 02/18/2008 - 11:48pm.If this is you at a disadvantage, then when you get back into circulation you must put up an amazing argument!
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
From The Seattle Times
Submitted by security_six on Sun, 02/17/2008 - 12:50am."The state's 1988 case stemmed from Seattle police roadblocks during the 1983-84 Christmas and New Year's holiday season. The Supreme Court found the program violated a state constitutional provision against illegal search and seizure.
But Justice James Dolliver, who participated in the majority decision, wrote in his concurring opinion that the program might be constitutional if it were authorized by statute.
Gregoire said her proposed bill fits Dolliver's criteria.
The state Attorney General's Office helped craft the proposed bill, Gregoire said. It will be introduced in the state House by Judiciary Committee Chairwoman Pat Lantz, D-Gig Harbor.
"If this does not make constitutional muster, then nothing will allow us to have this tool in our toolbox without changing our constitution," she said."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004112930_checkpoints08m.html
Apparently lawmakers didn't think enough of the recent bill to get it out of committee....
This from State vs Ladson regarding pretextual traffic stops... http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=wa&vol=658013&invol=o01
"Article I, section 7, is explicitly broader than that of the Fourth
Amendment1 as it "'clearly recognizes an individual's right to privacy with
no express limitations'" and places greater emphasis on privacy. State v.
Young, 123 Wn.2d 173, 180, 867 P.2d 593 (1994) (quoting State v. Simpson,
95 Wn.2d 170, 178, 622 P.2d 1199 (1980))"
I cannot find a copy of the Seattle case online however it is cited as
City of Seattle v. Mesiani, 755 P.2d 775 (Wa. 1988)
if you want to try and find it.
.45/70 Government (The only Government I trust!)
Thanks for the references..
Submitted by pmenendez on Sun, 02/17/2008 - 1:09am.I appreciate you following up on the case law..
That always makes for a good thread we can all learn from..
I kind of figured it would wither away.
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 02/18/2008 - 10:32pm.