Another vote for counterprotest

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Another vote for counterprotest

Submitted by Rick on Wed, 01/25/2006 - 8:02pm.

Dave Neiwert from Orcinus weighs in on the issue of whether to counterprotest or not. Dave has a lot of experience with these groups, and is active in tracking their rhetoric and activities. Here's his take:

The counter-protest in Olympia featured some insult exchanges and some ugly but minor interactions with the members of the NSM who came out to rally. From all the accounts I could examine, however, it's clear that the vast majority of the protesters were peaceful and well behaved.
More to the point, their presence sent an unmistakable message: That this kind of hatemongering will go neither unheeded nor unconfronted. The NSM organizers were clearly unprepared for this kind of response and shut their rally down sooner than they had intended.
Sending this message is vital, because the quiet approach -- simply pretending they don't exist, and perhaps they'll go away -- doesn't work. People like those who join the neo-Nazi movement believe they're standing up for white society's unspoken wishes, and they see this kind of silence as tacit approval. It encourages them to ratchet things up, particularly recruitment and violence.
Now, if the NSM were to try to make this kind of rally an annual event a la Coeur d'Alene, it would make sense to simply organize a counter-event elsewhere. But when they first go poking their heads out of their holes, it's absolutely vital to let them know the community isn't going to just pretend they're not there.
The counter-protesters, I think, could have done a better job of reining in those inclined to verbal abuse. But they did the right thing, most of all, by showing up and letting the haters know the challenge they represent would not go unmet.

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Nice piece. In response to h

Submitted by Sarah on Wed, 01/25/2006 - 8:19pm.

Nice piece.

In response to his last paragraph, ideally those of us trained as peacekeepers and likeminded allies would have been able to work more with the folks that had chosen more active protest. But all of us had not had any time to meet and talk over strategies and agreements or differences.

The various events that day were not at all planned by one group.

So, for instance in my own case, when I walked up to the active crowd at The Olympian, there was no way that I was going to try to go into the role as peacekeeper, really unless it was wanted or a small group interaction was being dealt with. For one thing, no one would have been able to hear me. Also, it certainly wasn't a situation where I would try to impose my own values.

Many of us observed, being a witness is a valuable role also. I talked with other folks watching including a few cops.

In contrast, back during the first Gulf war (or was it the 2nd), several of us did work as peacekeepers as requested during marches and rallies. This meant coordination, agreed upon goals and techniques, identifying armbands and the like.

As events proceed towards July we may very well be organizing something like this again. But even in that case, I don't see our work as reining anyone in. We aren't the law, we are not their parents. And truthfully, they are us and we are them. (Somehow that makes sense to me.) We may all work to influence each other to behave in a manner that we see as "right", but I myself accept flexibility and diversity of opinion and behavior.

I'm telling you, the neo-Nazi

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Wed, 01/25/2006 - 8:59pm.

I'm telling you, the neo-Nazi members want all of these counterprotestors to show up. When these nine go back to home, what do you think they're going to report? They're going to report that nine people standing around generated over two hundred people in response. They know their point of view is almost universally rejected and is supported by those on the fringe.

Do you think they hold a rally anticipating everyone is going to "see the light?" Or do you think that maybe they do it to rattle the cage, hoping a few opponents come out in masks, forcing a clash between two radical, and violent, groups?

So what do you think is going to happen when 50 neo-Nazi members show up? As I said before, in Toledo the entire situation took a turn for the worse because the people counterprotesting began to get violent, not the neo-Nazis.

And then, when the situation deteriorates to the extreme, it's picked up by national media. So now they're getting free publicity, with other members saying, "They're fighting for the 'cause!"

You all can determine the best course of action you feel is necessary. If there's another rally, though, and all of this plays out as predicted, be sure to come back on here and talk about it.

If they simply leave and never return I'm not above admitting I was wrong and that counterprotesting was the correct choice.

This is not an either or situ

Submitted by Sarah on Wed, 01/25/2006 - 9:25pm.

This is not an either or situation. We don't have only two strategies: ignore or violently protest.

Many communities have come up with viable strategies that work for their communities. The Southern Poverty Law Center has many examples and more on their site.

Am I reading you right, was there a note of irritation when you wrote "be sure to come back on here and talk about it"?

Yes, there was some slight ir

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Wed, 01/25/2006 - 9:48pm.

Yes, there was some slight irritation. I still can't get over how nine people standing around generated over two hundred people as a response.

Hopefully what happened at the last "rally" (in the loosest of terms) will be the only significant event by the neo-Nazi "movement" in Olympia.

Well, you have the right to y

Submitted by Sarah on Wed, 01/25/2006 - 10:03pm.

Well, you have the right to your irritation. I'll just hold my big ol' metaphorical shield up so I don't take it personally.

I told Rick that if anyone tells me to stop talkin' about Nazis here I'll reply that if he (Rick) sics his caimans on me, then I'll hush. I gotta smell the stench and hear those gnashing teeth before I put away my keyboard.

Faith communities in Olympia told us that our actions made a positive difference to them. I shook hands with folks, shared smiles. Me, I'm thinking this is a very good thing.

I'm not saying don't talk abo

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Wed, 01/25/2006 - 10:11pm.

I'm not saying don't talk about the Nazis.

I'm simply saying that when nine of them come to stand around and two-hundred other people show up to counter-demonstrate, they probably feel a sense of legitimacy.

As I said, feel free to take the course of action you feel is necessary (and by "you" I mean anyone so inclined to be physically present for a neo-Nazi event).

Out of curiousity, did anyone attempt to engage in discussion with the group? Why not ask them to explain their point of view and to provide factual evidence pointing to why they're correct? Turn it into a debate, more or less (and I don't mean the kind of debate on O'Reilly where people end up yelling at each other and nothing with substance is said).

I am a firm believer that, when people are engaged in academic discussion, we are forced to question and re-evaluate our own stance. If, in our mind, we cannot find an answer with substance, we will eventually try to find an answer which does carry weight. In this case, these people would eventually move from the fringe and more into the mainstream.

Would it happen in one discussion? No, not at all. It might not even happen at all. I do think it would be a lot more productive than what happened the other day, though.

Also, the last thing you want to do is embarrass the other person unless absolutely necessary. I've learned it's best to leave people an avenue in which they can save face while still acknowledging that they have been incorrect. If you simply berate and yell at a person, they're going to become further entrenched in their position, as they feel they will have to prove themselves correct in order leave the situation with an inkling of self-respect.

I don't think a discussion would be possible, though, because it would appear those showing up to counter had a wide spectrum of ideas on how best to counter the neo-Nazi group.

I agree. It is not the right

Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Wed, 01/25/2006 - 10:54pm.

I agree. It is not the right reaction to ignore. But to ignore might have been better than the reception they received.

How do we send the message to them that Hate is Not Welcome in this Community without resorting to violence in our message?

Signs that say, "Fuck (or die) Nazi Scum," ARE violent!

And what if all these poor pe

Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Wed, 01/25/2006 - 10:56pm.

And what if all these poor people have known in their lives is violence?

Isn't it practical to show them an alternative?

We don't have to welcome them, but we can at least attempt to show them that there is alternative to the apparent pain and hurtfulness of their behaviors.

I think that the arguments fo

Submitted by The Rambling Taoist on Thu, 01/26/2006 - 11:25am.

I think that the arguments for and against holding counter rallies are valid ones. And I don't think either argument should be dismissed out-of-hand.

I agree with much of the reasoning offered by The Fire Inside. Yet, while I do agree, I also see the need to stand up against this kind of vulgar hate, to stand up for love and respect.

I'm in line with what Sarah and Rob have written about being there as a witness to an alternative. If participants of a counter rally showed respect to those espousing a Nazi perspective -- whether one feels they deserve respect or not -- it only illustrates the vast difference between the two camps.

One thing that shouldn't be lost in this whole discussion is that those individuals who subscribe to Nazi ideology are human beings, just like the rest of us. We share more in common with them than what separates us (ideology).

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