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Submitted by Sarah on Mon, 02/06/2006 - 2:17pm.

When a hate group comes publically to town, who are they talking to? If a hate group shows up and no one responds, will they just go away? Are we feeding them by noticing their presence and organizing a variety of proactive events?

Some people think that the only conversation going on is between the hate group and the protesters. We "antis" are counseled to just ignore them, don't respond, they will just go away. We are even blamed for supposedly feeding the hate groups with our responses.

But experienced community activists know otherwise. There is more than one conversation going on. The hate groups are conversing with potential members with their actions. The recent spotlight on Olympia is a recruitment drive. The hate groups are also conversing with those who already agree with them, who maybe just need to be stirred up some and given something to do.

More...


Sure, the hate groups are talking to us also. They want us freaked out and vulnerable.

We of community resistance are not only conversing with the hate groups. We are also interacting with the community at large. We are taking pride in our community, we are speaking out against hate, and we are a demonstration to other community members that we support them, we support diversity in our community.

Young people especially can be vulnerable to recruitment drives like the one under way. Important that we present them with alternatives. Other conversations, other themes to take pride in, a community that takes a stand.

»

After we run the Nazi party o

After we run the Nazi party out of town we can focus on ideologies that teach an individual to hate economic classes.
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You mean ideologies like capi

You mean ideologies like capitalism, right?
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Sure, classism needs to be ad

Sure, classism needs to be addressed too. Though I quite possibly am reading your comment incorrectly.

The NSM is already in town and even if somehow we were able to magically escort them all out, they are not the only people in this area with those beliefs.

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Capitalism doesn't hate the l

Capitalism doesn't hate the lower classes, it just ignores them.

On the other hand, communism seems to somehow end up indoctrinating people into hating anything that doesn't benefit the group, usually resulting in certain classes finding themselves on the receiving end of a weapon.

I was making a remark about eliminating "hate," that's all.

Then I decided to use an example of something teaching "hate" which, if it were put to a vote in Olympia, would probably be how our local government operated.

»

You might be a redneck if...

You might be a redneck if...

You ask the county clerk whether your exwife is still technically your sister.

***

(Is this the kind of class hatred you mean?)

***

I'm reminded of a wise man who once taught me the difference between racism and prejudice. Prejudice, he said, was the notion that you should not trust someone who seems different. Racism was prejudice, combined with the power to actually do something about the prejudice (such as deny a loan, or withdraw an employment opportunity). In other words, racism comes down the social scale - but predjudice works both ways. Jensen would add that since the violence is coming down the social scale, it is often invisible. When it goes upward, it sticks out like a sore thumb. Or so-called "Reverse Racism."

Classism works the same way - until revolutionary combat begins. I know the history of the USSR, and it is one of the reasons I'm not a member of the Marxist religion anymore. But I still adhere to a class analysis of history and society. It explains too much to simply ignore it.

You might consider the old Christian saying: hate the sin, never the sinner. We have hatred for deep psychological reasons, and we channel hatreds in ways that are beneficial or not. Simply saying we should not feel that way is an aspect of denial, not a solution so much as a sheet of wallpaper over the crack. I'd argue that if someone is trying to kill you, it is OK to "hate" them; it's a survival mechanism which helps you overcome your natural desire to live at peace and do no harm. If we didn't have that in our species, we would have died out when the cave bears and the saber-toothed tigers hunted us to extinction 300,000 years ago.

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We should have more than one

We should have more than one conversation - one with the young people here about race, and class, one with the communities of faith about tolerance and diversity, one with the peace movement about pacifism and the history of facism in Europe, and one with the Nazis about any damn thing that will convince them to waste their time dealing with resistance, until we neutralize their appeal in our community.

I've heard Tor's appeal for ignoring them; his need is for officer safety, and it's a consideration I agree with 100% - speaking here as a critic of police power, I say that cops who feel safe are less dangerous to our community than cops who feel surrounded and vulnerable. We want the police officers to understand that our intent is NOT to attack the Nazis physically, but to deny them access to potential recruits and leave them without a viable option other than slinking out of sight. I'd bet that the WSP will enforce a much wider barrier - possibly employing physical barriers such as we saw in the RNC and DNC protests (temp fencing).

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I second those motions.

I second those motions.
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Isnt it tecnically

Isnt it tecnically discrimination for you to say that we cant have nazis here? Thats like them saying we cant have *, *, and *.

8/15 Sarah's edit of this post, just imagine three racist epithets in place of those * above. 

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Nice, you felt this was a

Nice, you felt this was a legitimate reason to print those three words. Whatever.

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Technically correct...

...but misses the entire point. We also don't want murderers, rapists, or arsonists. That's "technically" discrimination also.

As Merwyn notes, your language is potentially inflammatory. In most cases (although not all), there are ways to express those ideas without using language that some may find very offensive.


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
»

Sako

Who are you?
»

Sako

is what they call a "concern" troll. Someone who, for polemical reasons, expresses their "concerns" about a particular point of view or proposal. I have an inkling who Sako, is, but I'll wait to be sure.
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Local?

Think the person is local?
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Just a familiar name

and "blogging" style to someone who was banned from the Daily O. I could be all wet too.
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yeah,

I think I'm probably all wet. Nevermind. My apologies for my unflattering speculation about Sako’s motivations.
»

All wet??

Have you considered "depends" ?
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Perhaps I should

I'm thinking of going with the belted shields. How are those working out for you?
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Not so well, the belt digs

Not so well, the belt digs into....places. I would go with the briefs that change colors when they get wet. That's an awareness issue on my part though.
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There's a new model that

rings your cell phone when it senses enough moisture. Pee-Mobile.
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wah wah wah

wah wah wah
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removed sako's post

I'm sorry, I just really didn't want to see Sako's post anymore. The same comment could have been made without any derogatory language whatsoever.

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Thanks

Thanks for doing so, I was thinking on doing the same.
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D'oh!

Now I have no idea what's goin on.
»

Msg

I'll msg ya Norm.
»

In fairness...

...Sako didn't use those terms to refer to people, Sako mentioned that others use those terms. I think that Sako could have expressed those ideas differently (thereby avoiding those particular words altogether), but it's not clear that the intention was to oppress others. Instead of focusing on the language, I think it's probably more important to focus on what Sako meant with the post. And we can't really do that unless we can see it. Thus, I suggest that you republish it, and let people have that conversation.

Those words obviously come with baggage, but unless you think that words are inherently oppressive (which I think is counter to the evidence), then you have to make some space for people to find out what's acceptable.


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
»

I agree. Those words do

I agree. Those words do pack a punch, but I come from the Lenny Bruce school of thought on this subject. That is, words have power because we give them power. It is better to unload them, it will make these conversations easier.
»

mostly I agree

Alright, his comment is republished.

I guess what strikes me as a bit bizarre is that a new poster to OlyBlog would seek out this thread and then proceed to post using those terms.

I completely agree with you, that a word by itself is not inherently oppressive. Yet, as you allude to, these words do come with some pretty oppressive history, and it's the kind that continues to haunt people to this day to such a degree that they're willing to take steps like this. I guess I would rather defer to the NAACP on this, than somebody trying to make a pretty crappy point.

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Whose blog is this?

My title could sound somewhat combative but I don't mean it that way at all, I'm enjoying a relaxed Sunday and am not at all upset.

I have some discussion ideas, the first would be for all of us to sort out that question "Whose blog is this?". The way I see things, ultimately this is Rick's site, his blog(s). On the next level, each person's individual blog is "their" blog. So perhaps ideally enpen would have msged me first before deleting the comment and then I would have been msged again before the next choice was made.

Although I view this as my blog, it is only on a certain level. I'm part of a community here and have community responsibilities, along with being a docent. So I make decisions differently than how I would if I was dealing with my own individual blog say on blogspot or wordpress.

Enpen makes the point that it seems bizarre that a new poster would first post in this fashion on this thread. Excellent point. The poster is acting like some of our past neo-nazi posters. Doesn't mean the person is one, but the likeness is striking indeed.

At first I thought that I personally would leave the post as is, to show folks who don't already know what this mindset is like. But truly, all anyone has to do is look through the Nazis in Oly collection here and/or browse through any of the white supremacist sites like Stormfront and they quickly would get up to speed.

I'll write more as discussion continues. 

»

Ooops. Sorry.

I didn't realize it was from your blog, Sarah. My lame excuse is that I was thinking of it as part of the "Nazis Come to OlyWa" collection.


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
»

No worries

I'm editing/censoring the comment today cause it looks like it was a driveby one.

Makes sense that our collection Nazis Come to OlyWa would be seen as all one piece. I'm claiming territory at least this time with this post at this moment.

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