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Submitted by Rick on Sat, 11/05/2005 - 12:31pm.

Olycop has an interesting comment buried in one of the threads.

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Greetings. Magnumsgal, you

Greetings. Magnumsgal, you liberal thinkers are so easy to identify. If someone has a different point of view, you resort to name calling. One of the definitions of a bigot is someone who is narrow minded. I have found from past experience that people who start with the name calling usually have difficultly supporting their beliefs. As for the City Council at least Councilman Johnson has an orginal thought, even though I believe it is misguided and extremely detrimental to the City. The others listed by Oly Cop are usually unable to express their own thoughts and would rather defer to others (TJ) for that. Folks, the City of Olympia is goin' down in flames. Do you ever wonder why Lacey and Tumwater are experiencing growth and prosperity? Olympia is going through a slow death. If the auto mall should ever leave along with it's sales tax, our city will go fast and quiet. Leaving the city for Hawks Prairie has been extremly good for NW Harley-Davidson, ask Steve Boone. We rightfully hold President Bush responsible for the state of our country, why not the same of the city council.
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You should check out the inte

You should check out the interview with Mayor Foutch that is posted on this site. Summarizing: "Other towns would kill to have our downtown. Olymipia has a wonderful, vibrant economic base. This is due, to a large extent, to Evergreen and the community of intellectuals that have grown and stayed in this area because of the college."
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Mayor Foutch should take The

Mayor Foutch should take The Olympian to task and write an op-ed piece explaining there is no budget crisis and that, fiscally speaking, the City of Olympia is in good health. After all, with all of these major budget cuts, one might come to the wrong conclusion that the City is in poor shape.
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There are ways to go about th

There are ways to go about things without turning Olympia into Lacey. I don't even like driving through Lacey, it's ugly and has no downtown. We must focus on good jobs, not retail or service industry jobs. Most importantly we have to realise that we are all connected and won't prosper individually if act unsustainably as a community.
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There was an important point

There was an important point I got from the movie "Go with the Flow," (buy it here) about why downtown Olympia is the way it is. Unless I'm forgetting something, after Starbucks and Quizno's, if you really think about downtown, there aren't any "chain stores" down there. There used to, on the corner of Capitol and 4th, there was a Sears, which left for the South Sound mall when it opened in Lacey, and everything else left when the Capital Mall opened on the Westside.

The movie points out that what saved downtown Olympia was that it was so damn cheap to open a store down there compared to the new malls (where only national chains could set up). If downtown Olympia was more prosperous than it is today -- as lucky as Lacey to have a Walmart, a Target, a Lowes AND a Fred Meyer -- it wouldn't be Downtown Olympia.

By the way, there isn't a nationally renowned film festival happening in Lacey or Tumwater this week. When the Oly Film Festival moves to Hawks Prairie, I'll get worried.

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What about McDonalds, Subway

What about McDonalds, Subway and Jack in the Box? Chevron and Texaco can be considered chains. I am sure we're still missing a few.

edit: oh yeah, Safeway! Gotta remember Thriftway. What about Les Schwab?

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How much income do you think

How much income do you think a film festival brings to Olympia? Then consider: How much do you think an event such as the Kick in the Grass tournament in Tumwater brings in? If we're banking on a film festival to bring in out of town income I would say the City is going to lose a lot of potential income in the long-run.___EDIT: I would also be curious to know how much income has been lost by the Harley-Davidson move (and the loss of The Ram, though that was Port property). I know we discussed this before but, there have been rumors in recent months about one or more car dealerships moving to Hawks Prairie. Maybe Mr. Kingsbury would have a better understanding of how much the reciepts are worth to the City from multiple auto dealerships but it would seem to me that would be a significant loss of revenue.
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Is revenue the end goal and u

Is revenue the end goal and ultimate measure of whether the town is or is not successful?
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Well, if you enjoy having a t

Well, if you enjoy having a town, yes, ultimately revenue will be the measure of success.___Like I said, if you don't have a problem with a reduction in education, fire, police, and other government services then revenue is not important.
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We have to stop thinking abou

We have to stop thinking about things only in terms of revenue. Look at all of the jobs we have lost due to outsourcing because companies only think about the bottom line. We have to begin investing in the future. Money is great, but there must be a balance between it and sustainability. Lacey may have more revenue but at what cost? At the cost of the average person, forced to work in the service industry with no hope for advancement.
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Revenue is not a big deal whe

Revenue is not a big deal when you are not counting on there being a lot of bills. Unfortunately, Olympia has a great deal of bills. As I mentioned in a previous thread, in order for Olympia to continue funding everything at their current rate they're going to have to look at ways to increase revenue. Either revenue has to grow or expenses have to be cut. There's no two-ways about it. If everyone can come to terms with less revenue equaling less government services that's fine. Just don't complain when the City can't fund various programs and activities.
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Has revenue been drooping rec

Has revenue been drooping recently?

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According to The Olympian, ye

According to The Olympian, yes.
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The vast majority of jobs tha

The vast majority of jobs that have been stated above in the downtown area are mininum paying service jobs with little chance for advancement. The higher paying jobs now reside in Lacey or Tumwater. The city has a serious income problem and it is only getting worse. Currently they are debating drastic cuts of services and employees within the ranks. As Fire Inside has pointed out if the majority of the people are good with reduced services to include emergency Fire & Police responses, so be it. If we were to run our household budgets the way the city council runs theirs the "repo man" would pay us a visit. Money does not grow on trees and needs to be generated. If you are so concerned with businesses engaged in the nuke industry then run the auto mall out of town, I'm pretty sure that all of the auto makers have their hands somewhere in that field.
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(I want to point out first th

(I want to point out first that I overdid it a bit by saying "there aren't any "chain stores" down there." That said, I'd rather have a Les Schwab than a Tire Discount store.)

FPK1 set up a straw-man in his argument, saying that most of the good paying jobs are in Lacey and Tumwater, therefore so is the all of the money the city would use to pay for services. Cities in Washington do not depend on income taxes for revenue, they depend on a mix of sales, property and B&O taxes. The elements that would help pay for a local government include business revenue (not personal income), sales (that's why the Westside car dealerships and the Harley store were so important) and the value of property.

The largest industry in Olympia, state government, pays very little into the city coffers. No sales or B&O. And, unless the buildings are leased and not owned by the state, no property tax either. Tumwater learned this lesson when one of their new state buildings was built by a private group, but put into non-profit status once it was occupied, taking it off the tax rolls.

I would be interested to see Olympia persue a fee-based revenue system, like the one proposed by Tacoma's city manager.

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I was just about to say the s

I was just about to say the same thing: salaries don't determine city revenue. I'm curious about what TFI and FPK1 know about the budget and why it is so dire. Got any numbers?
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Per The Olympian last Wednesd

Per The Olympian last Wednesday (November 2). Keep in mind, this is only the most recent article. The alarm has been going up for some time: "The city proposes cutting $3 million from next year's budget, which will affect staffing and programs in every department."___"The city would cut one shift at a fire station, meaning firefighters at the other two stations would need to expand their coverage areas during that time of day."___"The cuts are steep, but [Steve] Hall [ Olympia City Manager] said the city's budget would be balanced until 2008, when revenue is expected to fall even more."___"'We are looking at the future. We are not burying our heads in the sand,' [Jane] Kirkemo [Olympia finance director] said. 'We are trying to avoid years where we dramatically cut programs or raise rates.'"___It's interesting that a shift from the fire department would be cut. It's one thing to cut a program that is more or less a "bonus," such as the police Explorer program. It's quite another to be cutting fire coverage for city residents.___The article is quick to say the budget reduction is due to the loss of the motor vehicle excise tax and the cap on property tax levies, so it may not be entirely the fault of the City that the budget is on such shaky ground. The bottom line, however, is that future revenue is not going to meet future expenditure.___We're in a small enough city that most of us probably know at least one person working, in some capacity, for the City of Olympia. If you ask around enough, at the very least, you'll get a feel for the budget situation of the department that person is employed by.___While salaries do not determine the revenue a city can generate, it's certainly a gauge for the overall health. For instance, the State buildings which have been going up in Tumwater. Had those been built in Olympia it's more likely that an employee, even if out of sheer convenience, would spend their money in Olympia by eating lunch, making a quick purchase, etc. Instead, those employees are now situated in Tumwater. So, instead of spending their money in Olympia, it's more likely this money will stay close to their place of employment. I don't see how that could possibly be a good thing for the City. How much of an impact could/does it have? I don't know. I would imagine that, on a yearly basis, the impact is limited. However, when money continues to leave over the course of a decade or two, the limited impact would probably become fairly significant.
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So the source of the budget i

So the source of the budget issue is a tax cut? Then why are you raggin' on downtown?
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I don't believe I have been t

I don't believe I have been the main proponent of "raggin' on downtown." However, I think the concern is that there have been businesses in general which have made an exit. The Capitol City Press was one example which was brought up for the downtown-area. The company employs 40 people and does $9 million in gross sales (The Olympian, 9/1/05). That has now left Olympia and gone to Tumwater. Since the property is leased by the business, it's more than reasonable that another business which generates money for the City will go into the space and the City won't miss a beat (or at least will only experience a temporary vacancy.). The two worst possibilities for the City, though, would be for Capitol City to use the space as storage or for a nonprofit to move in. The same with the former Lacey Cinemas building (which is now actually in Lacey). The last I heard there was talk of a church moving in. Great for people, bad for the City. Not only did they lose a business (although the theater had been losing business to Lakewood and Yelm for a few years) but now instead of at least having a business, which generates revenue, it would be taken off the rolls completely.___Then there's Harley-Davidson moving. They are moving more units than ever in their new location (primarily because of where it is situated in relation to I-5). Think Steve Boone, the owner, doesn't talk to the owners of car dealerships in the Auto Mall? What's their incentive to continue staying in the Olympia Auto Mall when they know that moving to Lacey would be a far better option in terms of sales?___I think the concern, at least how I'm reading it, is that downtown could be BETTER if certain things were adjusted. Why be content with $50 when you can make $100? Evidently downtown businesses are aware of this with the creation of a business improvement district.
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This is why we need state wid

This is why we need state wide income tax.
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Ah, yes. It's not enough tha

Ah, yes. It's not enough that somewhere in the neighborhood of 50% of an individual's income goes to some form of taxation (federal income tax, sales tax, etc., etc.). Let's add yet another tax.
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I don't make nearly enough to

I don't make nearly enough to have 50% taxed.

I don't think the Microsoft executives will like the income tax, but hey, that's what America's about, the greatest good for the greatest number - people power, right?

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It wouldn't just be Microsoft

It wouldn't just be Microsoft executives who wouldn't like the income tax. According to the 2000 census, there are 10,190 married couples with children under 18 in Thurston County making between $60,000 - $99,999. Already a significant portion of their income is going toward their children's expenses, their own expenses, federal taxes, state taxes, and local taxes. Rather than force the government to manage the budget properly, you want to go to them and tax MORE of their income? This is exactly why people like Tim Eyman gain popularity. People are tired of being taxed at every corner.___And I think you would be shocked by how close to 50% of your income is going to the government (this isn't just income tax, either. I was referring to all forms of taxation, be it the tax you paid when you bought the latte this morning to the paper you're going to send to Uncle Sam on April 15th.).
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TFI: I'm not sure where you'r

TFI: I'm not sure where you're gettin' your numbers. A quick search shows that state tax = 6.8% of personal income in WA, and federal tax (middle quintile of 51k/yr) = 14.4%, resulting in a total effective tax rate of approx. 21.2%. This does not include gas, but I don't think you're going to get up to 50% with that. This puts the US at the bottom of developed countries for tax rate. So, make your case.
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From the Washington State Dep

From the Washington State Department of Revenue, as of Jan. 2004: $2.44/liter to Liquor Liter Tax, 20.5% per purchase to Liquor Sales Tax, $.28/gallon to Motor Fuels Tax, 5.9% per purchase to Rental Car Tax, 129.42% of wholesale price to Tobacco Products Tax, $2.92 per $1,000 to property tax, 0.5% to use your boat for Aircraft and Watercraft Excise Tax, $1.00 per gallon of syrup for Carbonated Beverage Tax, etc., etc.___I included some taxes which are charged to businesses because the cost is simply passed down to the consumer. And this is just Washington state. There's also the local and federal governments coming after you, which was my point. We're taxed on nearly every dollar we spend.___I've been trying to find the sheet which shows that the average American effictively works to pay the government starting January 1 until some point in June.
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Am I supposed to feel sorry f

Am I supposed to feel sorry for those who make $60,000 a year? Sorry buddy, They will get no sympathy from me. By the way, if the struggle is so intense, why are there so many people driving around in gas guzzling SUVs?
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You might not want to try to

You might not want to try to squeeze the $60,000/yr. category too hard. You'll find there's more of them than you would imagine.___For instance, the upper-middle class is recognized as beginning at $75,000/yr. and ending at $200,000/yr. The middle-class, consisting of "office workers" and high prole, made-up of "skilled blue-collar workers," would fall right into the category you're describing. Basically, the working stiff who is putting in 40+. I guess they don't deserve sympathy, though.
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Also keep in mind this is an

Also keep in mind this is an Olympian article. They have not exactly been known to get both sides of a story, especially when it comes to downtown.

So TFI, what is the solution?

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I'm not trying to delay on th

I'm not trying to delay on this question, it's just that there's a lot to say. The short answer, increase revenue, is fairly easy. This is obviously a question, though, that can't be answered in one sentence.
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The reason for the interest i

The reason for the interest is because I live in this city and I see it's future as bleek. I am well aware of where the money comes from to fund the city. If you look though we discussed about well paying job. The downtown has alot of service paying jobs ("Starbucks" and others listed) and only getting worse. Capitol City Press is leaving (good paying jobs). Maybe we can expand "Bread and Roses" to help stimulate the area. You wonder about my motives, I'm really wondering why you appear not to care about the financial state of Olympia?
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We've already made it through

We've already made it through the bleek times -- the stores fled from downtown years ago. What he have now is a downtown that had adapted to that reality. My feeling, and evidently the feeling of the Mayor, is that Olympia has adapted rather well. Olympia is a cultural center -- think Procession of the Species/Olympia Film Festival/Art Walk/Boat Festival, etc. There are many fine restaurants and businesses that make it a very nice place to shop and hang out. People come, they spend their money, and the city collects tax on those sales. There is no reason to believe that this trend will not continue.
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The city is seriously in a fi

The city is seriously in a financial hole and even they are worried about that. I was raised in a major metro area outside the of Washington and this is Not a major cultural area. Due to a transient problem that is getting worse, people go elsewhere to spent their money for a night on the town. I do admit there are some great restaurants (I love the Oyster House)in the downtown area, but why go. Too many panhandles. And the events you listed Rick cover what, a couple of weeks. What about the other 50 weeks of revenue lost to other cities. The cold hard fact is that money is the bottom line. Business, any business is set up to make money. The more money a business makes the more tax (sales)in generated.
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Politicians believing that go

Politicians believing that government should be run like a business is what have our entire country in the hole. Rewarding companies for providing service jobs does not bring money into our community. It takes it out. People aren't happy in those jobs because they are stifled creatively. They aren't healthy in those jobs because they, and their children are not recieving benefits. The neo-classical trickle down system isn't working. We need to think of one another as people not customers or patrons. I do agree that expanding Bread & Roses would stimulate the area, however. Bread & Roses wants to get the panhandlers off of the streets just as bad as you do. The only difference is that Bread & Roses wants to do it because we love all of our neighbors and know that if given a chance people can and will become thriving members of the community. Why do you not come downtown because of panhandlers? Are there really that many? Is it so hard to just say no that you would rather avoid them? Do you not want to look in their eyes? Do you not want to hear their stories of bad luck because you might realise that it could be you? Do you feel guilty that you eat at The Oyster House and they sometimes don't eat?

I'm not trying to sound preachy here, I just want to understand why people blame the homeless for crime, and urban blight, and other social ills. We should blame ourselves for electing politicians that allow it to continue.

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I don't think FPK1 was saying

I don't think FPK1 was saying we need more service jobs. In fact, as I understood it, that was the point of saying a business such as Capitol City Press is making an exit from Olympia. Will a similar business, offering quality jobs, take their place?___I have no doubt the mission of Bread & Roses, and the intent, is to ensure people from the lower rung of society have the ability to move up. FPK1 is hardly the only member of the community, though, to wonder when "help" becomes "enabling." Bread & Roses would probably be well-served to point to the tangible effects of their mission (e.g. Advertise individual success stories of people who have moved from the bottom of society to holding steady, long-term employment, paying their own bills, etc.).___I would be curious to hear from olycop on panhandling and how many calls the Olympia Police Department experiences regarding the issue. If I remember correctly, The Olympian did a story a few months ago on this very issue.
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Downtown Olympia has seen ble

Downtown Olympia has seen bleaker days than today, at least cosmetically. I don't know about account books, because, thank God, I live in Grays Harbor County (where Washington is still Washington, albeit tattered). You guys in Thurston County don't know the real meaning of economic hurt. Out here, in our Third World County run by good ol' boys who wink and nudge and lie and bully without trying to pretty it up, it is a different story. Hey, did I just hear that kid from "Deliverance" playing the banjo? Oh, once again, being a narrative, I digress.

Anyway, back to Olympia. There were three major hits Oly took in the 1960s-70s. First, Dan Evans (who was, let us recall, a Republican), expanded state government so much that the capital campus had to jump across Capital Way and destroy blocks and blocks of nice established homes in order to make room for all those new state workers. Homes which housed a major consumer base for downtown Oly. Gone. All those little grocery stores lost their customers, including Adolph who ran the grocery store where a popular pub now sits on 4th and Columbia.

Secondly, Sears got into a pissing match with the other merchants and pulled out of their store (where WA Personnel now resides) and spearheaded South Sound Mall, which in turn resulted into the incorporation of Lacey in 1966. Another death knell for downtown Oly.

And finally, the Westside started waking up as an economic force. Evergreen opened in 1971 and it was like an alien ship had landed. In one of those paradoxes, a college associated with the left helped stimulate the capitalists in Olympia and the west part of Olympia grew almost as fast as Lacey. When Das Kapital Mall was built in the late 1970s, downtown Oly was dead, dead, dead.

And how did downtown Oly revive? A big part of the resurrection is due to members of the TESC community investing in a town where the locals had historically treated them like dirt. It is a great example of changing the system from within. When this first became apparent, it was known as "Evergreen's revenge." But I think the town and gown are too intertwined today, and that situation has been, thankfully and to the credit of both Olympia and Evergreen, outgrown.

But, like I say, I live out here in a county that is really hurting. If you want to see real pain, visit Aberdeen-Hoquiam-Cosmopolis. Olympia won't look so bad after you visit us.

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Yeah, no kidding. I worked in

Yeah, no kidding. I worked in Montesano off and on for a couple of years, and the difference between the Harbor (Aberdeen, Hoquiam and Cossi) and Olympia is stark. I would never want to be where they are right now.

Ok, so if Sears was where the DOP is now, what was in the building on the SW corner of 4th and Capitol?

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That building was Goldberg's,

That building was Goldberg's, a furniture store. They had an in-house guy draw their ads, and I remember watching him work with great fascination whenever we went there. The building on the NW corner was Mottman's. The SE corner was the National Bank of Commerce. My memory is fuzzy on the NE corner, but I think it was a pharmacy. The spot where Browers Books now sits used to be one of the most notorious bars in town, the 107 Tavern.
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The thing about panhandling i

The thing about panhandling is that it is not illegal. It is actually protected by the first amendment of the Constitution. Cases have been won in court over panhandling arrests. What I'm saying is that even if the police are called because of a panhandler, nothing can be done unless there is a crime being committed. I would like to hear olycop's take on this.

In a chapter of his book Don't Think Of An Elephant, George Lakoff talks about the Bush administration's response to 9/11. He points out that there are three causes of radical Islamic terrorism.

1.) Worldview: the religious rationale.
2.) Social and poltical conditions: cultures of despair.
3.) Means: the enabling conditions

He goes on to point out that the Bush administration has only focused on the third, the enabling conditions. This is as common in the war on poverty as it is in the war on terrorism. Number two is, in my opinion, the part that should be focused on. Let's not attack panhandlers, let's attack the culture that creates panhandlers. Let's figure out why there are panhandlers and eliminate the root cause. Panhandling is a lot of times the only source of income available to people. This is wrong.

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