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Submitted by Rick on Sat, 11/05/2005 - 12:31pm.
Olycop has an interesting comment buried in one of the threads. |
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Greetings. Magnumsgal, you
Submitted by FPK1 on Sun, 11/06/2005 - 8:25pm.You should check out the inte
Submitted by Rick on Sun, 11/06/2005 - 9:44pm.Mayor Foutch should take The
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Tue, 11/08/2005 - 10:25am.There are ways to go about th
Submitted by Rob Richards on Sun, 11/06/2005 - 9:45pm.There was an important point
Submitted by emmettoconnell on Sun, 11/06/2005 - 10:33pm.There was an important point I got from the movie "Go with the Flow," (buy it here) about why downtown Olympia is the way it is. Unless I'm forgetting something, after Starbucks and Quizno's, if you really think about downtown, there aren't any "chain stores" down there. There used to, on the corner of Capitol and 4th, there was a Sears, which left for the South Sound mall when it opened in Lacey, and everything else left when the Capital Mall opened on the Westside.
The movie points out that what saved downtown Olympia was that it was so damn cheap to open a store down there compared to the new malls (where only national chains could set up). If downtown Olympia was more prosperous than it is today -- as lucky as Lacey to have a Walmart, a Target, a Lowes AND a Fred Meyer -- it wouldn't be Downtown Olympia.
By the way, there isn't a nationally renowned film festival happening in Lacey or Tumwater this week. When the Oly Film Festival moves to Hawks Prairie, I'll get worried.
What about McDonalds, Subway
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Sun, 11/06/2005 - 11:55pm.edit: oh yeah, Safeway! Gotta remember Thriftway. What about Les Schwab?
How much income do you think
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Mon, 11/07/2005 - 12:39am.Is revenue the end goal and u
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 11/07/2005 - 8:30pm.Well, if you enjoy having a t
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Mon, 11/07/2005 - 9:18pm.We have to stop thinking abou
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 11/07/2005 - 1:37am.Revenue is not a big deal whe
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Mon, 11/07/2005 - 1:57am.Has revenue been drooping rec
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 11/07/2005 - 8:32pm.According to The Olympian, ye
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Mon, 11/07/2005 - 9:15pm.The vast majority of jobs tha
Submitted by FPK1 on Mon, 11/07/2005 - 8:24am.(I want to point out first th
Submitted by emmettoconnell on Mon, 11/07/2005 - 8:50am.(I want to point out first that I overdid it a bit by saying "there aren't any "chain stores" down there." That said, I'd rather have a Les Schwab than a Tire Discount store.)
FPK1 set up a straw-man in his argument, saying that most of the good paying jobs are in Lacey and Tumwater, therefore so is the all of the money the city would use to pay for services. Cities in Washington do not depend on income taxes for revenue, they depend on a mix of sales, property and B&O taxes. The elements that would help pay for a local government include business revenue (not personal income), sales (that's why the Westside car dealerships and the Harley store were so important) and the value of property.
The largest industry in Olympia, state government, pays very little into the city coffers. No sales or B&O. And, unless the buildings are leased and not owned by the state, no property tax either. Tumwater learned this lesson when one of their new state buildings was built by a private group, but put into non-profit status once it was occupied, taking it off the tax rolls.
I would be interested to see Olympia persue a fee-based revenue system, like the one proposed by Tacoma's city manager.
I was just about to say the s
Submitted by Rick on Mon, 11/07/2005 - 9:00am.Per The Olympian last Wednesd
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Mon, 11/07/2005 - 9:48am.So the source of the budget i
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 11/08/2005 - 11:02am.I don't believe I have been t
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Tue, 11/08/2005 - 11:34am.This is why we need state wid
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 11/07/2005 - 8:33pm.Ah, yes. It's not enough tha
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Mon, 11/07/2005 - 9:14pm.I don't make nearly enough to
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Tue, 11/08/2005 - 8:53am.I don't think the Microsoft executives will like the income tax, but hey, that's what America's about, the greatest good for the greatest number - people power, right?
It wouldn't just be Microsoft
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Tue, 11/08/2005 - 10:18am.TFI: I'm not sure where you'r
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 11/08/2005 - 11:01am.From the Washington State Dep
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Wed, 11/09/2005 - 6:40am.Am I supposed to feel sorry f
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Wed, 11/09/2005 - 9:52am.You might not want to try to
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Wed, 11/09/2005 - 7:30pm.Also keep in mind this is an
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 11/07/2005 - 10:52am.So TFI, what is the solution?
I'm not trying to delay on th
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Mon, 11/07/2005 - 8:21pm.The reason for the interest i
Submitted by FPK1 on Mon, 11/07/2005 - 12:25pm.We've already made it through
Submitted by Rick on Mon, 11/07/2005 - 3:12pm.The city is seriously in a fi
Submitted by FPK1 on Mon, 11/07/2005 - 4:20pm.Politicians believing that go
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 11/07/2005 - 5:08pm.I'm not trying to sound preachy here, I just want to understand why people blame the homeless for crime, and urban blight, and other social ills. We should blame ourselves for electing politicians that allow it to continue.
I don't think FPK1 was saying
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Mon, 11/07/2005 - 8:18pm.Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 11/08/2005 - 12:46am.
Downtown Olympia has seen ble
Submitted by stevenl on Tue, 11/08/2005 - 12:19am.Anyway, back to Olympia. There were three major hits Oly took in the 1960s-70s. First, Dan Evans (who was, let us recall, a Republican), expanded state government so much that the capital campus had to jump across Capital Way and destroy blocks and blocks of nice established homes in order to make room for all those new state workers. Homes which housed a major consumer base for downtown Oly. Gone. All those little grocery stores lost their customers, including Adolph who ran the grocery store where a popular pub now sits on 4th and Columbia.
Secondly, Sears got into a pissing match with the other merchants and pulled out of their store (where WA Personnel now resides) and spearheaded South Sound Mall, which in turn resulted into the incorporation of Lacey in 1966. Another death knell for downtown Oly.
And finally, the Westside started waking up as an economic force. Evergreen opened in 1971 and it was like an alien ship had landed. In one of those paradoxes, a college associated with the left helped stimulate the capitalists in Olympia and the west part of Olympia grew almost as fast as Lacey. When Das Kapital Mall was built in the late 1970s, downtown Oly was dead, dead, dead.
And how did downtown Oly revive? A big part of the resurrection is due to members of the TESC community investing in a town where the locals had historically treated them like dirt. It is a great example of changing the system from within. When this first became apparent, it was known as "Evergreen's revenge." But I think the town and gown are too intertwined today, and that situation has been, thankfully and to the credit of both Olympia and Evergreen, outgrown.
But, like I say, I live out here in a county that is really hurting. If you want to see real pain, visit Aberdeen-Hoquiam-Cosmopolis. Olympia won't look so bad after you visit us.
Yeah, no kidding. I worked in
Submitted by emmettoconnell on Tue, 11/08/2005 - 8:48am.Yeah, no kidding. I worked in Montesano off and on for a couple of years, and the difference between the Harbor (Aberdeen, Hoquiam and Cossi) and Olympia is stark. I would never want to be where they are right now.
Ok, so if Sears was where the DOP is now, what was in the building on the SW corner of 4th and Capitol?
That building was Goldberg's,
Submitted by stevenl on Tue, 11/08/2005 - 9:59pm.The thing about panhandling i
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 11/08/2005 - 9:41am.In a chapter of his book Don't Think Of An Elephant, George Lakoff talks about the Bush administration's response to 9/11. He points out that there are three causes of radical Islamic terrorism.
1.) Worldview: the religious rationale.
2.) Social and poltical conditions: cultures of despair.
3.) Means: the enabling conditions
He goes on to point out that the Bush administration has only focused on the third, the enabling conditions. This is as common in the war on poverty as it is in the war on terrorism. Number two is, in my opinion, the part that should be focused on. Let's not attack panhandlers, let's attack the culture that creates panhandlers. Let's figure out why there are panhandlers and eliminate the root cause. Panhandling is a lot of times the only source of income available to people. This is wrong.