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Submitted by Rick on Tue, 11/15/2005 - 5:58pm.
Don't forget the bit about keeping an open mind. If you want to hear the same old stereotypes and name calling, turn on Fox News, Air America, Rush Limbaugh, etc. This is a place for a different kind of conversation.

Warning: using ad hominem attacks and questioning other people's motives may be hazardous to your status on Olyblog.

So play nice.

[update]

I've added a new function to the site: the ability to send private messages. So check your inbox -- you might have a message!

I'm interested in this debate

I'm interested in this debate about more vs. less gov't. Why are some so suspicious of the gov't? Aren't there some ways that gov't is a good thing? I am personally thankful for clean water, clean air, good roads, the internet, and public broadcasting.
»

More or Less Gov't: More "

More or Less Gov't:

More "good" government, less "bad" government. Okay, does that sound good everyone? Then let's make it a deal. (I grin facetiously.)

Personally, I think the government could spend less time giving handouts to big business. Why is it that 60% of american businesses don't pay income tax? What's the deal? The American wealthy elite may complain about a welfare state, but the fact is, big business is suckling on the tit of big government worse than any social group.

Just look at what Halliburton has thus far gotten away with in Iraq. This is Dick Cheney's company Halliburton, the VP of TUSA, and what do you know? - the company is awarded a no-bid contract to service and re-build the oil infrastructure in Iraq. What's up with that? Insider politics? The American Way? Is it right?

I don't think it's right. I think it's insider politics, not for the benefit of the American people, and I think it is increasingly becoming the American Way.

I appreciate social services, like police, fire, emergency medical care, but these could all be better, more effective. We need more money for law enforcement in this country, more training, better pay, better hours. Personally, I would like to see a major crackdown on speeders, the speed limits need to be enforced. I often feel unsafe as a pedestrian or while bicycling around some of this area's drivers. It would be nice to nail those drivers for being threatening. In this area, as far as I am concerned, go government.

I think the government could do a much better job of ensuring that we - and our descendents just as importantly, have access to clean air and water as well.

These are just some thoughts off the top of my head, which I wanted to share.

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Rob W: The American wealthy e

Rob W: The American wealthy elite may complain about a welfare state, but the fact is, big business is suckling on the tit of big government worse than any social group.

The Fire: I agree completely with you. The government should not be handing out welfare of any kind, whether it's to the individual or to a business.

Rob W: The company is awarded a no-bid contract to service...

The Fire: I disagree with you on this ONLY because a no-bid contract, when necessary, cuts through much of the red tape. Of course, eliminating the red tape altogether would eliminate the need to award a no-bid contract. You do know Haliburton has been awarded no-bid contracts in the past, before President Bush came into office, right? I would hardly call it a conspiracy but rather a strong business relationship (between the government and Haliburton).

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Fire said: The government sh

Fire said:
The government should not be handing out welfare of any kind, whether it's to the individual or to a business.

So government should not offer a helping hand to those less fortunate? To a disabled person who wants to work but cannot? To a survivor of domestic violence with a large family who isn't yet able to fully support the family? To some one laid off, evicted through no fault of their own, and ill? To children in the foster care system?

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All of these needs can be ful

All of these needs can be fulfilled with private organizations, such as The Red Cross, The Salvation Army, Bread & Roses, local churches, et cetera. You would be surprised at how many private organizations there are in the United States which are aimed at very specific needs, such as NOAH (The National Organization for Albinism and Hypopigmentation).

When an organization is run privately it is usually more efficient and produces better results than the government. Simply put, they have to work for their funding. Rob mentioned earlier how he is doing the best he can with the budget he has. I'm more than willing to bet Rob, with a self-described nearly non-existant budget, produces far more on the dollar than just about any government agency doing similar work.

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What I'm faced with in trying

What I'm faced with in trying to find funding sources is that there is a huge burden on the private sector to give money to groups. This creates polarization between service providers and destroys the ability to really work together because in the end we are competing for the same money and have to prove that "we" deserve it more than "them". I think the federal government should provide money to the states for services based on need, the states should push that money into the municipalities, and then the cities or counties should decide from there what groups to fund. This is basically the way it happens now, but there are so many hands dipping into the same little pot that there just isn't enough to go around.

I do agree that we at B&R do a better job of serving people than government agencies could, mostly, I think, because we don't think of people as numbers, we think of people as people. As a full time staff person at B&R I get room and board at our staff house and a $200/month stipend. We put roughly 90% of our total money into the services that we provide. We'd like to have more for our staff, such as medical and dental, or larger stipends, but we aren't willing to scale our services back in order to do it. Our primary focus is on getting people housed, and we do well at it. The problem with relying on private donations is that it is hard to plan for the future. Private donations are not reliable. Grants are. When Katrina hit we had hard times because people were donating money to the relief efforts instead of giving money to us. I don't blame people for giving money to Katrina victims, it's a noble cause. My point is that right now the reliable funding sources are through government grants. Most private grants are one time only, and never cover operational costs. The government grant that we have through HUD is what pays our rent and keeps our advocacy center alive. Likewise, citizens who donate don't like to donate money for office supplies or rent, they want their money to go to direct services. So it's a challenge to juggle all of our expenses when we don't have a reliable funding source.

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With less government and more

With less government and more private involvement, though, there would be more accountability among the people.

For instance, right now people can say, "Oh, well, government already does that." If the people played a greater role, though, you could use a medium such as The Olympian and say, "Hey everyone, we're not getting this funding." Then, the community could blame nobody but themselves.

As it is right now, though, people point the finger at government for any problem, simply because government has assumed such a large role that if there is a problem in society it's their (government) job to correct it.

As you said, government money is guaranteed and private money is not. I think, however, that if government had a decreased role and the private citizen (a) had more of their own money to use and (b) knew the void would not be filled by government they would be far more likely to help out with an organization such as B&R, since the responsibility could not be pawned off to anyone but themselves.

As I said before, I think ultimately we want to see the same goal achieved, we just have a vastly different way of getting there. Imagine what an organization such as B&R could do if they had the money which currently goes to fill government coffers. I have every bit of confidence, and you have reaffirmed for me, that the private sector can do a far more efficient job of handling most any market than their public counterparts.

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I do not agree that all those

I do not agree that all those needs can be filled by private organizations currently. Most of those private organizations listed will help people sign up for government social services that they are eligible for, because that is what is consistently available.
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I agree, which is why there s

I agree, which is why there should be an overhaul in the function of government and the role of private organizations.

None of this could happen tomorrow.

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Our forefather intended for a

Our forefather intended for as little govt. intervention into our everyday lifes as possible to include handouts of any type. The assistance should be conducted through private citizens and business.
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Whatever Halliburton's prior

Whatever Halliburton's prior engagements with the US gov't were, the fact that VP Dick Cheney will garner several years of back pay from Halliburton should preclude that company from getting the contract in the first place.

The contracts should have gone to other recipients. Same with Bechtel. The contractors should be forced, immediately to submit bids in an open process, so the american tax payer is assuredly not being ripped off.

Personally, I have a much bigger problem with welfare and subsidary going to fatcats who smoke imported cigars and drive luxury cars - than with welfare to help single mothers, and disabled people just get by, or rehabilitate.

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Rob W., you act like this is

Rob W., you act like this is something new. Kickbacks have goning on since the begining of time.
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I don't think this type of co

I don't think this type of corruption in government and society has always been so widespread as it is now.

There were certainly simpler times when human society was more solid. Maybe there are too many of us, we are a nation of people spread over too large an area to recognize or achieve any degree of real solidarity.

Unless there is a revolution, or revelation of obeyance to a system of higher ethical standards, to a higher moral code. We need to spend more on the welfare of our collective humanity...

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Rob, look at the values we ha

Rob, look at the values we had as a country 30-40 yrs ago. There was left and right, but I think generally everyone was pretty close to the middle. Now there is very right and very left, and it appears to be going further from the center. I watch the TV and see what the upcoming generation is exposed to. Women are commonly referred to as "Ho's" and the younger black community refer to each other as "Nigga". What the hell is that crap. The things that an earlier generation fought and died to get rid of, these kids use it to greet each other. I hope this isn't the begining of the end for us.
»

Forgive my typing skills, I r

Forgive my typing skills, I really can spell, just not type.
»

Rick, First let me say tha

Rick,

First let me say that I hope you will wield the sword fairly regardless of political affiliation with respect to the warning at the start of this thread. I get the sense you will.

»

Rick, everyone in this blog h

Rick, everyone in this blog has there own opinions and I haven't heard anyone change either on the left or right.
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Is changing another's opinion

Is changing another's opinion the goal? I think you will be disappointed if you expect to change someone's opinion! I would be satisfied and feel successful, if only I can communicate my position so that others understand, and therefore be respected for having the perspective and opinion that I do.
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I admit, folks are pretty far

I admit, folks are pretty far apart. But, we're just getting to know each other. There is still plenty of time for persuasive argument to be made on both sides. My personal feeling is that communication is the means, not the end. I'm clearly pretty wedded by my ideas, but I hope that I learn something from these conversations that helps me understand the world a little better.
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Nobody is trying to change op

Nobody is trying to change opinions. It appears though that some are intimidated with the way the right sees thing.
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A suggestion: let go of the r

A suggestion: let go of the right/left thing and see where the arguments lead you.
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If we constantly point out ea

If we constantly point out each other's differences then we'll never discover our similarities.
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Ahhhh Right/wrong thing th

Ahhhh

Right/wrong thing then?

Just kidding, don't banish me!!

;-)

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Snark is always welcome!

Humor is always welcome!
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I just wanted to comment that

I just wanted to comment that it was a great idea to add PM's to the site. I had been meaning to suggest this, since it's a common feature on most message boards, but with all of this discussion, well, I just never got around to it.
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