How to Talk with Anyone About Iraq

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How to Talk with Anyone About Iraq

Submitted by Rick on Mon, 12/19/2005 - 5:59pm.

Start: Dec 20 2005 - 11:00am

How to Talk with Anyone About Iraq:

A Practical & Participatory Workshop

Tues. Dec. 20

Come to this practical workshop to develop skills in talking with the public or other people who have different thoughts and feelings about the Iraq war. Liv Monroe conducts it, so you know it will be good! This workshop will be useful even for people who already attended Liv’s workshops on Sept. 11 or Sept. 13, because Tuesday night’s workshop will focus more specifically on Iraq and will offer lots of practice.

We’ll start at 7:00 p.m. sharp and end at 9:30 p.m. at Traditions Café, 5th & Water SW.

This is part of the “People-to-People Outreach Campaign

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I went to one of the training

Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 12/19/2005 - 8:55pm.

I went to one of the trainings in September, and it really helped me to understand how to communicate more effectively and less antagonistically. I would go to tomorrow's if I wasn't in the Midwest. I can definitely recommend this workshop to anyone who struggles with communication about issues of war and peace.

As someone who spent 14 month

Submitted by Bob on Tue, 12/20/2005 - 8:09am.

As someone who spent 14 months in Iraq, this type of conversation would be refreshing. It is hard to explain to someone about all the positive interaction I had with Iraqis when the only response I get is "Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush..."

Would you be willing to tell

Submitted by Sarah on Tue, 12/20/2005 - 10:26am.

Would you be willing to tell us more? Either here, or we could set up a new thread. I, for one, promise to try to listen and converse without applying my own rhetoric and negative opinions.

I would love to start a conve

Submitted by Rick on Tue, 12/20/2005 - 10:17pm.

I would love to start a conversation about what your experience in Iraq was like. Should I start a special thread?

This place is as good as any

Submitted by Bob on Wed, 12/21/2005 - 1:00pm.

This place is as good as any for conversation about the issues involved. Are there specific topics you are interested in?

I'm interested in how it felt

Submitted by Sarah on Wed, 12/21/2005 - 1:08pm.

I'm interested in how it felt to adjust to a new environment, did you experience any type of culture shock? Also interested in hearing what the day to day was like, your interactions with the local people especially. And how has it been to transition to being back here?

I'm a language hobbyist, so I

Submitted by Bob on Wed, 12/21/2005 - 1:46pm.

I'm a language hobbyist, so I didn't find the culture differences as shocking as some. When you listen and engage personally with people instead of dictating your own viewpoint as some might, you end up being able to understand the cultural differences instead of being stymied by them. My day to day interactions were wide and varied and I got to meet and talk with Sunni Arabs, Shia Arabs, Kurds, Yezidi, Turkomen, Chaldean and Armenian Christians, and third-country nationals. With only a few exceptions (some formerly privileged Sunni Arabs), all were overjoyed to have Saddam out of the picture, but all wanted the security situation to improve. The most difficult cultural difference we encountered was a popular belief that the government should do everything for them. With exceptions (notably the Kurds), it took many Iraqis many months to get used to the idea that we would help them, but not solve things for them independently.

Am I right in thinking that t

Submitted by Sarah on Wed, 12/21/2005 - 2:21pm.

Am I right in thinking that to really learn other languages, a person needs to also pick up cultural truths inherent in that language? I've heard that interacting in another language includes also the right mind set for that language, not just a blunt translation from English.

What are some of the big issues we here at home, especially those of us who want peace, are not understanding?

On the topic of Iraqis thinking we would solve most everything instead of helping, did some of that come from what we initially told them? Or was that a notion that came from the Iraqis themselves?

Thank you also for offering to talk with us, the best way for any of us to learn is to talk with folks who were actually on the ground.

My personal opinion is that l

Submitted by Bob on Wed, 12/21/2005 - 2:40pm.

My personal opinion is that language is the principle barrier to culture. A straight dictionary translation without historical understanding of how a word evolved into use hurts understanding. The Kurds I worked with had been fending for themselves for over 13 years because of our Northern No-Fly-Zone that kept Saddam from gassing them again and allowed the Kurds to focus on building their infrastructure. The results are plainly evident when you cross into Kurdish controlled areas in the north where people are friendly and public utilities work and commerce is booming. Those who weren't in that region, though, had to go through the Ba'ath Party for everything. Police didn't solve crimes, the Army did. So when the US took away the Army and asked the police to start "policing," they had (have) a huge learning curve to overcome. It's a big jump from writing a parking ticket to catching a murderer. A great Iraqi patriot and a close friend, Walid Kashmulla (who was killed this year by a suicide bomber from Yemen) told me once the christian parable (even though he was Sunni) about teaching a man to fish instead of giving him a fish. Men like him are being targeted by the jihadi now because they represent success -- a government that is unsuccessful makes it easier for the jihadi to recruit from.

What do you think the potenti

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Wed, 12/21/2005 - 3:28pm.

What do you think the potential for success would be of allowing the Kurds to create their own country?

Fire, I wish they could do it

Submitted by Bob on Wed, 12/21/2005 - 10:54pm.

Fire, I wish they could do it because they deserve it. But Turkey has stated publicly that they will invade if the Kurds declare independence. Iran and Syria would both help Turkey in the invasion. Those three countries spend a lot of time oppressing their own Kurdish populations. Just look at last year's brutal crackdown on the Kurds in eastern Syria as an example...

There's been a push to do it.

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Wed, 12/21/2005 - 11:11pm.

There's been a push to do it. I posted a link in another thread of a website which has been set-up, thanking American citizens (from the Kurds) for liberating "the other Iraq."

It would seem northern Iraq is a completely different ballgame than southern.

I think two (and even three) separate countries should be created from the current Iraq, should it be feasible.

Can you suggest any good book

Submitted by Sarah on Thu, 12/22/2005 - 1:33pm.

Can you suggest any good books to read about the Kurds and their history?

"A Modern History of the Kurd

Submitted by Bob on Thu, 12/22/2005 - 5:52pm.

"A Modern History of the Kurds" is the definitive study, but it's pretty weighty. National Geographic just did a story on them in the January volume, as well. They are a fascinating, if somewhat tragic, people for truly, they have no friends but the mountains.

But it always serves to remember that they too have personal/political agendas and are not always as benign as one would hope. Kurdish activity around the Iraqi city of Kirkuk, for example, is particularly machiavellian. Kirkuk sits on perhaps the richest oil field in the country and yet there are three peoples vying for control: Kurds, Sunni Arabs, and Turkoman. None of them are pulling any punches for control.

Thanks, I put the National Ge

Submitted by Sarah on Thu, 12/22/2005 - 9:58pm.

Thanks, I put the National Geo. on hold through the public library, they don't have a copy of "A Modern History of the Kurds" but can find it elsewhere.

Your comment also helpful concerning the importance of remembering that they have personal/political agendas too, it can be easy at times to idealize people and forget that we are all human.

Have you ever had the opportu

Submitted by Bob on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 9:44pm.

Have you ever had the opportunity to travel to a non-Western country?

I haven't, only been to Canad

Submitted by Sarah on Sat, 12/24/2005 - 10:18am.

I haven't, only been to Canada and that don't count. I look forward to eventually travelling and learning from experience.

Condolences on the loss of yo

Submitted by Sarah on Wed, 12/21/2005 - 3:34pm.

Condolences on the loss of your friend.

I think sharing knowledge with people ultimately is more respectful than only doing it for them. We all may need a helping hand at times, yet eventually that helping hand needs to include the concept of eventual independence.

Can you write some on what you observed of Kurdish women and children?

Thanks Sarah. Kurdish women

Submitted by Bob on Wed, 12/21/2005 - 10:42pm.

Thanks Sarah. Kurdish women and children were particularly liberated, if I can use that euphemism. Kurdish women in the three major cities (Dohuk, Irbil, and Suleimaniyah) wore clothes that were western if they chose and had the option to do what they wanted with their life. My wife worked for a time with a women's group in Dohuk that was teaching more rural women how to get more educated about health, education, and economy. All the Kurdish boys I met were mischevious and loved to hang out with the "macho" soldiers. The girls wanted to know how the women soldiers did their hair. :)

I recently watched an amazing

Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 12/21/2005 - 7:38pm.

I recently watched an amazing documentary called "Gunner Palace" about a unit of artillary guys living in Uday's mansion. The two things that stuck out for me were, one, that these guys were not doing the job they were trained for, instead of launching artillary they were acting as social workers and patrolmen; and two, that the guys did not seem to be trained in the language at all. One scene that sticks out was during a raid on a suspect's house, the soldiers did not know the words for "get down" which they kept saying over and over in english, getting no response from the non english speaking Iraqis. It seems to me that knowing how to at least tell someone to get on the ground would be important. The same soldiers knew the derrogatory term for "Iraqi" very well. Did you recieve any basic Iraqi language training before or when you got there?

Rob, I own "Gunner Palace."

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Wed, 12/21/2005 - 10:19pm.

Rob, I own "Gunner Palace." Excellent piece of work. In fact, it's one reason why I'm frustrated with the current mission in Iraq.

We have the military which, I am sorry to break this to everyone, was not designed to be a police force. In fact, judging by the film, it would appear we currently have soldiers doing the same job OPD does with far more risk and far less pay. Doesn't make much sense.

The military was, and is, an institution designed to kill people and break things. That's the bottom line. If you hold another belief for the job of the military you're under a great misconception.

I think you're right in that the very, very, very basic language ("Get down," "Hands," etc.) would be useful. You'll notice police officers in Spanish-speaking areas of this country, even if the officer cannot speak Spanish themselves, seem to know the phrases they would need to know (and yes, I'm a "COPS" addict. If anyone else here watches F/X, you'll know what I mean).

Back to the subject, though, I think it's ridiculous we're using the military for what is currently happening in Iraq. The sooner we secure our own interests in the region, the better.

Rob, I enjoyed that documenta

Submitted by Bob on Wed, 12/21/2005 - 10:47pm.

Rob, I enjoyed that documentary, but did not have similar experiences. Being a personal nut about languages, I found myself well equipped to deal with those types of situations. As a general rule, however, I tell all people I know who are deploying to do what they can to learn the language as much as possible. Not only is "get down" useful, but so is "Good morning! How are you?" (Sabah al khair! Khayfahalek?) As mentioned earlier, a straight dictionary translation of "Good Morning" doesn't convey the same thing in Arabic. "Sabah al khair" is strictly translated as "May your morning be blessed." But saying it will give smiles to the recipient, just as a simple "good morning" in the US might.

Peace is not the absence of w

Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Sat, 12/24/2005 - 8:22am.

Peace is not the absence of war; it is a virtue; a state of mind; a disposition for benevolence; confidence; and justice.

– Spinoza

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