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Sad News

Submitted by Sarah on Thu, 12/22/2005 - 9:13pm.

Suspect in Olympia ecoterror case found dead in jail:

PHOENIX - An Arizona bookstore owner charged with eco-sabotage in Washington was found dead in a Flagstaff jail cell early Thursday, authorities said.
William C. Rodgers, 40, of Prescott, Ariz., committed suicide, according to the Coconino County Sheriff's Office. The county medical examiner determined that Rodgers suffocated after placing a plastic bag over his head while he was being held in a one-person cell.
Rodgers was one of six people arrested this month in connection with eco-terrorist attacks in Oregon and Washington in recent years. He was charged in the firebombing of a government wildlife lab outside Olympia, Wash.

Indy Media Report

Statement by his friends

My own comment: I don't understand why there was a plastic bag in his cell.

Sarah's blog
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"I don't understand why there

Submitted by Deep Diver on Thu, 12/22/2005 - 9:42pm.

"I don't understand why there was a plastic bag in his cell. "

To give him the opportunity to do the "right" thing.

A cowardly man, caught doing cowardly acts, leaves this world in a cowardly manner.

You are not helping me unders

Submitted by Sarah on Thu, 12/22/2005 - 9:53pm.

You are not helping me understand at all.

In fact, your response feels like a chortling slap in the face. I'm wrestling here with the desire to defend, then I remember that I don't want to get into this type of debate. Because the ground set is already unsafe.

I recently read in the Seattle Weekly an article about jail suicides. And I already know some things about suicide in general. Jail staff should be trained. And some of the basic training they should have under their belts from day one is no cords, no plastic bags. Also that suicidal people often appear, as the sheriff involved in this said...."normal". He should have known that normal appearance and behavior means next to nothing.

Yeah, I said I would not debate and defend. But damn it, this life is holy. This man is dead, and maybe he doesn't have to be. He was not proven guilty.

I am human, I make mistakes. But I hope that I never am flippant and cruel. I hope that my mistakes are bumbling ones of ignorance that can be corrected.

I honor and respect this life that has passed on.

Is that what Jesus teaches yo

Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 12/22/2005 - 9:48pm.

Is that what Jesus teaches you?

What do you mean Rob?

Submitted by Deep Diver on Thu, 12/22/2005 - 9:57pm.

What do you mean Rob?

Does Jesus teach that in some

Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 12/22/2005 - 10:23pm.

Does Jesus teach that in some instances suicide is the right thing?

What's to understand Sarah.

Submitted by Deep Diver on Thu, 12/22/2005 - 10:05pm.

What's to understand Sarah. The guy killed himself. If someone is bent on killing themself they will get it done. If the bag hadn't been there, I'm confident there was a sheet and he could hang himself.

I see no reason to be concerned about this guy's death. He was a terrorist, and he will never do that anymore! If he was saved he's better off, now with Jesus. If he wasn't, he's doing the "fire dance". I see nothing in the articles that would indicate he was saved, but only God knows his heart.

The bottom line is he was a criminal, and a coward. One less E.L.F., A.L.F., etc. member is a good thing.

In all of our conversations,

Submitted by Rick on Thu, 12/22/2005 - 10:17pm.

In all of our conversations, DD, you have never been able to explain the difference between the "terrorists" who founded this country, and the "terrorists" who protest how it is currently organized. It seems like this might be a good time to start.

This is related to why I aske

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 12:12am.

This is related to why I asked Rob Richards earlier if he believed in "good" and "evil."

I suppose now would be an appropriate time to ask you the same.

For the record, yes, I believe there are both "good" and "evil" people and ideas.

I added more to my prior comm

Submitted by Sarah on Thu, 12/22/2005 - 10:20pm.

I added more to my prior comment.

William Rodgers had not yet gone through trial. He was not yet proven a criminal or terrorist or anything.

Even if he was, I believe in human rights for all. Including criminals.

I understand that if a person wants to kill themselves, they often can find a way. But something doesn't sit right at all in this particular case. And jail staff can make it next to impossible for inmates to harm themselves if they work on it.

You don't have to be concerned about his death. I'm cool with that. Maybe you can see that some of us really are concerned with his death. And be cool with that fact.

I agree with Deep Diver in th

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 12:17am.

I agree with Deep Diver in that, why get bent out of shape about it?

Was it tragic? Sure. The same with Tony Dungy's son earlier this morning. At the same time, though, I too view suicide as the act of a coward. Life got too tough? The defense was mounting too much pressure? If you can't handle the difficulties of life then maybe someone just isn't fit to live, I don't know?

Do I sound cold? Probably. I just don't think it's worth trying to figure out an action which, for some reason, many have taken throughout the course of history.

DD: "I see no reason to be co

Submitted by stevenl on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 5:00am.

DD: "I see no reason to be concerned about this guy's death. He was a terrorist, and he will never do that anymore! If he was saved he's better off, now with Jesus. If he wasn't, he's doing the "fire dance". I see nothing in the articles that would indicate he was saved, but only God knows his heart."

The irony here is that your comment does not make me think of Jesus at all. Instead, I think of Darwin.

RR, suicide is a sin, but the

Submitted by Deep Diver on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 6:15am.

RR, suicide is a sin, but there are no unforgivable sins except separation from God. It's likely this guy committed the unforgivable sin.

Sarah, you are correct, this guy was innocent until proven guilty. I'm fairly confident he was guilty, but he hadn't been convicted. So my comments should have started with "if".

stevenl, Why? What do you know about Jesus? Have the enlightened ones at TESC helped you with that knowledge?

Do I think Jesus would look upon this guys death like I do, nope. He was one of his children. And if he wasn't a believer, he was sentenced to the "fire dance" by God. So I'm sure God's heart was heavy due to this guys death. But not mine. "If" he did what he was accused of, his death was a win. He gets the death penalty for his acts, like all the ALF/ELF types.

DD: "Do I think Jesus would l

Submitted by stevenl on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 7:06am.

DD: "Do I think Jesus would look upon this guys death like I do, nope. He was one of his children."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as a Christian, shouldn't Jesus serve as an example to follow? What am I missing here?

If you are sure that god's he

Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 10:41am.

If you are sure that god's heart is heavy over his death, then wouldn't you try to find compassion for him in your own heart? Wouldn't you try to follow the example of love that god gives you?

Yup, we all should strive to

Submitted by Deep Diver on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 7:27am.

Yup, we all should strive to be Christ like. But do not forget, Jesus (Yeshua) is God (Yahweh). You can't look at Jesus and his mission here on earth in a vacuum, separate of the Old Testament.

Strive to be Christ like, but understand no one will even get close. I guess you expect every Christian to attain that level. If you do, plan on disappointment.

My only concern for this guy is for his soul. I wouldn't wish Hell on anyone. I'm personally glad there is one less of these guys. I have been a direct and personal victim of their hateful behavior.

I don't want to hijack this thread with a discussion about me and my beliefs. The bottom line is a dirtbag terrorist killed himself. There are a lot of good people that hurt in this country that do the same. If you want to shed a tear, do it for them, or for this guy's family who I'm sure are suffering, but not this creep.

Shorter DD "I don't have to l

Submitted by Rick on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 8:14am.

Shorter DD "I don't have to love my neighbor if I don't want to because God is also wrathful." I don't claim be a christian scholar, but this sure sounds like trying to have it both ways. There's a word for that...duplicity.

That's a cop out answer. F

Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 10:54am.

That's a cop out answer.

From my perspective people don't want to be Christ like all the time because it doesn't suit them all the time. If you say something hateful and someone calls you on it, then you say, "Man is not perfect", as if that justifies everything. It seems to me that someone truly striving to be Christ-like would not use this cop-out. I think they would instead be humble and realize that what they said was out of fear and not love, and try to strike such thoughts from their heads.

I'm not christian, but from what I've read from scholars, this is true prophetic christianity as opposed to the ever popular constantinian christianity.

Rick, love thy neighbor - hat

Submitted by Deep Diver on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 8:33am.

Rick, love thy neighbor - hate the behavior (sin), and like I alluded to, I fall short everyday, JUST LIKE YOU. The difference between us, you will be a fuel rod if you don't get saved, I won't be.

You non-believers crack me up...lol

I'm sure you understand duplicity very well. Like when YOUR crowd at TESC protest the petroleum industry in some manner, i.e. global warming, then get in their 1967 VW bus and drive away putting out more pollutants than several 2005 SUV's.

Back to the thread again, are you going to lose sleep over this criminal, Rick?

The behavior was to kill hims

Submitted by Rick on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 8:41am.

The behavior was to kill himself. Which do you choose, the behavior or the neighbor?

What about that whole forgive

Submitted by Rick on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 8:47am.

What about that whole forgiveness thing? I think I remember hearing something about that in the bible.

Does the bible say to hate pe

Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 11:02am.

Does the bible say to hate people's behavior?

If you love someone, don't you love them through all of their faults? I have a son, he's not yet old enough to make his own decisions, but when he is, I'm sure he'll make some that I don't agree with. I can't imagine a realistic situation where I would "hate" something my son did.
I work with addicts and criminals to try to get them the help that they need, such as treatment or counseling or housing. After working with someine for a while, I get to know them, and love them. A lot of times they'll be doing very well, clean and sober, and then regress back into old habits. I would be inneffective if I got angry at them and told them I hated their behavior. They would probably leave and not come back for help ever again.

Hate is a useless product of fear, and it just doesn't have a place.

DD, I'm very much a believer,

Submitted by emmettoconnell on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 5:17pm.

DD, I'm very much a believer, and I fall on a different side of this than you. Every human death is regrettable, no matter what you feel about the person. I can't say that anyone faulted in not preventing this guy's death, but it did make me sad hearing about it.

I'm very much with John Donne on this one: "...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."

Who is responsible for forgiv

Submitted by Deep Diver on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 9:02am.

Who is responsible for forgiving him, Rick? Everyone?

And just because he is forgiven, doesn't mean he doesn't get to feel the consequences of his sin.

Speaking of consequences, are

Submitted by Rick on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 9:40am.

Speaking of consequences, are you familiar with the story "A Christmas Carol" by Charles Dickens? It speaks of people that have cold hearts, and the consequences that await them. Check it out.

Why doesn't anyone ask whethe

Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 9:32am.

Why doesn't anyone ask whether or not it's possible that it was murder? We all know that prison operations are often wrought with cruel, nefarious and highly corrupt administrations.

It would be interesting to see what an outside (impartial) autopsy reveals.

All I am saying here is that it's possible it's murder. Of course it is possible that it was suicide - in which case the prison is still culpable for allowing a suicidal inmate access to the means to kill himself.

edit: I certainly didn't intend to turn the attention away from the discussion that was taking place here previously...

Who's "responsible for forgiving him?" I think that ALL GOOD Christians are responsible for that!

Praise Jesus!

::Wrapping tinfoil around my

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 10:04am.

::Wrapping tinfoil around my head::

This started out as one perso

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 10:16am.

This started out as one person, me, expressing sadness and questioning. I'm fine with folks disagreeing with me, with each other, having other opinions. Why does ridicule have to come into this conversation? What happened to playing the ball, not the man/woman?

I'm simply cracking a joke ab

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 10:29am.

I'm simply cracking a joke about this individual being "murdered."

I think that is being asked a

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 10:10am.

I think that is being asked and wondered about, whether he was murdered, that is the sense of things I get from reading comments elsewhere. I'm certainly wondering that. Also wondering if he was "encouraged" to die. I hope there is an impartial autopsy properly done.

Rob W. Again you show you ar

Submitted by Deep Diver on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 11:15am.

Rob W. Again you show you are not a believer. Forgiveness is to come from the one who was offended against. What do I have to forgive him of??? The bigger forgiveness comes from the Lord, and I'm guessing, he ain't gonna get dat.

Rick, no cold heart here. Ju

Submitted by Deep Diver on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 11:16am.

Rick, no cold heart here. Just believe in getting what one deserves, and he did.

Really. Got what he deserved

Submitted by Rick on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 1:03pm.

Really. Got what he deserved. Hmmm. What if the following is true: he did it, but felt very bad about it. Maybe at one time it seemed like a good idea, but having grown a little older now, he thinks it's wrong. But he has moved on, started a new life, and is on track. Then he gets busted. His whole new life is now gone. Perhaps he has a history of mental illness, including depression. He has nothing to live for.

Still think he got what he deserves?

If this scenario didn't occur to you, then you should check your heart -- the temp might be a bit chilly.

Oh yes RR, I do hate things a

Submitted by Deep Diver on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 11:20am.

Oh yes RR, I do hate things about friends and co-workers of mine, and what my adult children might do. But I still love my children and I like the same co-workers and friends. And no the bible doesn't say to accept people as they are with all their faults. Not all faults are sinful, but we are to hate the sin and love the person.

Example, one of my co-workers is a lesbian. Her life style is sinful, and I hate her sinful behavior. But I like her as a person, in fact she is a wonderful person. I hate it when my son swears, but I love him.

Was this possibly murdered, doubtful. From what the media coverage indicates it was suicide. You conspiracy theorists, may want to borrow TFI's foil hat. ;-)

When someone says they "hate"

Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 12:00pm.

When someone says they "hate" something or someone, from my experience, it is usually the case that they fear them because they don't understand them.

I do not believe you that god wants you to have hate in your heart. If it is true that "God is Love", then hate would be the opposite of god.

Hating a behavior is complete

Submitted by Deep Diver on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 12:04pm.

Hating a behavior is completely different than hating a person.

I'm talking about the useless

Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 12/23/2005 - 1:31pm.

I'm talking about the uselessness of feeling hate for anything. Compassion leaves no room for hate.

never mind

Submitted by khaos on Sat, 12/24/2005 - 1:13am.

i deleted my previous comment because the point was lost and i wanted to rephrase it. i didn't know it would take other comments posted in reply as well. fuck it.

emmett, Glad to learn you ar

Submitted by Deep Diver on Sat, 12/24/2005 - 1:03pm.

emmett, Glad to learn you are a believer. And I welcome you as a Christian brother here. Also, your walk with Christ on this issue is probably closer to what he would like to see than what I can give him. I believe every life is precious in the eyes of God, and I'm sure he regrets every death, particularly if they aren't saved. But I don't have the same level of compassion.

Is the death of Stanley "Tookie" William's regrettable? More so, or less so than his victim's lives, or the same? How about Dalhmer, Bundy, or perhaps Gacy? Are their deaths regrettable? Maybe for you, not for me. It's regrettable what their victims endured and what the families live with today.

It is regrettable that this guy took the coward's way out and cheated his victims from some needed closure. But his punishment was better in the long run as he wouldn't been given a life sentence/death penalty for his crimes. But like most terrorists, he was a coward, and in his case to the end.

Rick, you can come up with a lots of what if's. And maybe you might have a what if that would change my mind. I haven't seen anything about this guy that would indicate any of the what if's you describe here fit his life/situation. How about this for a what if, it was a case of mistake identity and he never did it because he was a monk and hadn't been out of the monastery since he was 6 years old. Come on, stay with the facts in the debate not some hypothetical junk.

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