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Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Fri, 08/03/2007 - 7:27am.
From today's Olympian: Graffiti a problem not only in Olympia I have to agree with our fine Daily that tagging isn't pretty. It lacks thought and substance. The challenge is that graffiti is as old as the cavemen (my apologies to the Geico characters). CIA Guy, his friend Lisa, some kids and I are proving to Olympia that if you give kids a medium, they will use it in a positive manner and "taggers" will leave it alone - call it honor among artists. Take a quick look at the back of the Elks Lodge and you'll see the partial results. The only tag left is up high and they are taking care of that one, too. If I have a criticism of The Olympian on this editorial, it would be "not thinking outside the box". But this is what we've come to expect. I'd love to see the data on property values going down and crime going up in an area where some of the artists murals are located. Maybe the property values went down when the owners failed to maintain them and rented to the first breathing body, as opposed to maintaining property and screening tenants to avoid criminal behavior. Which came first, the graffiti or the run down tenament?
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Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Fri, 08/03/2007 - 7:59am.We are the precious chosen few, let all the rest be damned. There's only room for one or two, we can't have Heaven crammed!
Maybe I wasn't clear
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Fri, 08/03/2007 - 8:50am.I'm not supporting property destruction, I'm supporting thinking outside the box.
My best friend and his sister, both artists, have worked with street artists to channel their talents in a positive way, and it worked. In one case, in 1976, kids painted all of the fire hydrants in Tacoma in red, white and blue, in celebration of the Bicentennial.
To paraphrase a well known movie line - "if you give them a medium, they will come"
As soon as I talk Mrs Larry into it, the north side of my home will be a mural, as it has no windows.
"There is only one race, the human race" - The Neville Brothers
Graffiti are...
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 08/03/2007 - 9:56am....Graffito is.
Damn culture! Get out of my
Submitted by chaney on Fri, 08/03/2007 - 10:11am.I still don't get why some
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Fri, 08/03/2007 - 10:17am.We are the precious chosen few, let all the rest be damned. There's only room for one or two, we can't have Heaven crammed!
I think art is wonderful,
Submitted by chaney on Fri, 08/03/2007 - 2:34pm.The underlying issue, if you ask me, is that art cannot be effectively shared via commerce. If you spray some paint on a canvas and sell it, I'm probably never going to see it. It's dead to everyone except the person who bought it. But if you spray it on a wall downtown, it's there for everyone to see. And art should be for everyone. It's not a private communication, it's meant to be accessible, a conversation. Our society does not allow an artist to be an artist, to pursue happiness. Spontaneity, self-expression, community, these have no market value, and if an artist can't achieve those things legally, they will break the law. If you'd like to define morality along the lines of who lost how much money, then yes, the artist is at fault. But that way leads to misery and madness, if you ask me.
And for those who think tags are ugly... Well, when you take off the leash (the eye of the police), and give a tagger the time and space to work, this happens:
No, daily rag, of course that's not art. All the Olympian cares about is money and whoever's got it. Same as ever.
Thanks. Fine points and I agree with most...
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 08/03/2007 - 2:50pm.now that you mention it...
Submitted by Meta Hogan on Fri, 08/03/2007 - 2:55pm.weird assumptions
Submitted by enpen on Fri, 08/03/2007 - 3:08pm.Just a quick note: I'm pretty sure that if there were a bunch of free walls around town you'd have less to worry about regarding property vandalism (from graffiti) than you do now (which is probably minimal anyways). The reason being that there seems to be this weird assumption on the part of anti-graf folks that putting these things up doesn't take away from a finite supply of time, energy and supplies. Some of the more elaborate pieces on our Free Wall behind the Capitol Theater, for example, have taken full days and I don't even know how much paint. Now, if the city essentially challenged the artists by providing numerous legal wall canvases on which to paint, do you really think the local artists would have the time, energy and supplies to then go out and vandalize the rest of the city?
As long as there exist the tools property vandalism will occur. But meeting it with force rather than a willingness to foster and develop creativity and talent brings us to an impasse rather than provides any kind of beneficial solution.
Not anti-graf
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 08/03/2007 - 3:39pm.nicely said
Submitted by enpen on Fri, 08/03/2007 - 3:00pm.When I get more time I'll include my own two cents here (itchy fingers, itchy opinionated mind), but damn if you don't make an extra fine point with those pictures, Chaney. Thank you.
Sure, a shop owner could
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Fri, 08/03/2007 - 3:01pm.We are the precious chosen few, let all the rest be damned. There's only room for one or two, we can't have Heaven crammed!
Apples and oranges.
Submitted by chaney on Fri, 08/03/2007 - 3:30pm.What if the shop owner
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 08/03/2007 - 3:34pm.Well I don't know about the
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Fri, 08/03/2007 - 3:45pm.Good point about the Nazis. After all Hitler went to art school. Swastikas in the window could be considered art on a cultural or historical level. Shoot, just claim it was intended for its original Dharmic purposes. Better than some plain old window that didn't even have any color to it.
Why aren't Chaney and the other artists able to use their own walls?
It is comparing apples and
Submitted by chaney on Sun, 08/05/2007 - 1:02pm.I'd love to know if any of you have actually had graffiti painted on your house. I haven't. For anyone but the gangster or the stray neo-nazi, pissing people off is not the aim. People love to talk about eachother's homes when they're on the subject of private property, but I'm talking about businesses that are trafficked by the public every day. That's where I'm seeing all the graffiti, and I've been looking.
And using their (I'm not a street artist) own walls? The internet making street art obsolete? How much money do you people think artists have? Even if an artist owned a house, what are the odds that there's any significant level of public traffic in their area at all? How many own a digital camera or computer, or have an internet connection? The whole point of painting on a wall downtown is getting your art into a place where it can be seen. Artists need community, and I'd like to think most people understand that communities need artists... I mean, do you guys really want a town full of slate grey walls?
Why are we in a situation where artists can't make a living by following their passion, have limited access to public forums due to their limited funds, and are generally being shit on and derided by mainstream society? Isn't the artistic profession at least as old as that of the merchant? Why is the artist's cultural and psychological commentary considered less valuable than the merchant's ability to buy products, mark them up and sell them? Or, relatedly, why is a tree in the ground considered less valuable than a tree in a lumber mill? Why is there such a huge disconnect between money value and VALUE?
Why do they have to force
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 6:43am.No I've never woken up to find the walls of my home converted to a mural. If I were a business owner I wouldn't want to arrive first thing in the morning to find it either.
You keep bringing up value: Why is an owner's wish to have their own wall left alone less valuable? You're sounding like a three-year-old who wants to take their crayons to a wall, but based on your argument you probably think something like that is Precious.
If the OWNER of the slate
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 11:26am.I don't get it
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 11:43am.The same could be asked of
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 11:47am.The same could be asked of the tagger, no? Protecting your castle, pride in ownership (who doesn't want their "place" to look nice?) It reminds me of folks that key cars. Why in the world would you want to deface something because you don't like something about it?
And yes, I was being facetious.
But the difference is
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 11:51am.Pride in ownership. Why does
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 11:56am.Pride in ownership. Why does anyone care what they back lawn looks like? Nobody but the family will see it. The point being that it is the owner's wall, not the taggers. It's not public property. The tagger does not, and should not, have any say in this matter. The wall, and the paint covering it (no matter how boring) belongs to the owner and it's his right to say what should, or should not, be put upon it.
People care what their back yard looks like becasue they see the
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 12:01pm.Maybe they dislike the art
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 1:15pm.Actually the owners of the
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 2:21pm.And in that case it's 100%
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 2:25pm.We are the precious chosen few, let all the rest be damned. There's only room for one or two, we can't have Heaven crammed!
Really though
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 5:13pm.they aren't tagged out of
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 6:41pm.Respect huh?
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 6:58pm.I don't understand.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 7:07pm.Sometimes you may be right.
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 7:28pm.Why would the owner of an
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 11:53am.Because it's their's and not yours or mine.
By that logic why should I care what color my underwear is? Most people don't see it. Still I'd rather people kept their mitts and paint out of the dryer at my apartment complex when I'm doing laundry.
That really doesn't answer the question
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 12:07pm.And I'm questioning the
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 12:15pm.that's not the motivation
Submitted by enpen on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 2:34pm.The motivation is to produce art and be a part of a community. The urban art community is strong, supportive and exciting. Towing the line is not what artists do.
"In order to acquire a growing and lasting respect in society, it is a good thing, if you possess great talent, to give, early in your youth, a very hard kick to the right shin of the society that you love. After that, be a snob."
- Salvador Dali
There it is right there, We
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 4:14pm."Produce art and be a part of a community"...you wish to accomplish this by disrespecting and alienating the larger part of the community? Pardon us while we strong-arm back in our own expressive way.
woah there
Submitted by enpen on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 5:21pm.Merwyn, there's a fundamental flaw in your argument and it lies in the assumption that this form of expression is a desire rather than a compulsion. You're a part of this whole human experiment and I'd be willing to bet that you have your own passions and your own avenues for satisfying those passions. The key, I think, is to recognize self-expression is a compulsion and attempt to satisfy it in a manner that people aren're harmed. As it is, when somebody tags a building or paints a piece the only thing that is arguably harmed is the building itself. We're not talking about burning down buildings or shooting people in the head here, we're talking about paint on walls.
"you wish you accomplish this by disrespecting and alienating the larger part of the community?"
Two things here: your sense of time here is very immediate and any time you join up with a community you're alienating others. Non-practitioners of any art love to suffer from the delusion that talent is innate and springs whole from the brush like Athena from Zeus' head, when in reality all art (accounting, poetry, debate, painting, etc.) is born out of donating countless hours to getting better. If a street artist is really good (see Banksy) then they go through this transitional phase of being social pariah to in demand. Businesses hate it when a crappy artist hits their wall, but give them a Banksy stencil and they're all smiles for the increase in foot traffic and visibility. It's the old "you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet" idiom come back to haunt the boot-strap mentality folk.
"Snobbery indeed, and who truly likes a snob?"
Well, I like art by Michaelangelo, da Vinci, Dali, Picasso, Monet, Duchamp...I could go on-and-on-and-on. People who are great at what they do are often snobby about it. And people love what they produce, so maybe everybody likes a snob as long as they don't have to be around anything but the product.
"Pardon us while we strong-arm back in our own expressive way."
Don't worry, that's been going on for a long time. Abusive police officers are a dime a dozen in the street art community. That's where I have a real problem. Why on earth do people deserve to get their asses kicked because they paint walls? A wall, and the time it takes to repaint it, is not even close to the value of a human life. Not even on the same page.
There's no need to kill a
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 5:27pm.So if there's a Jewish
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 08/07/2007 - 8:07am.fine lines
Submitted by enpen on Tue, 08/07/2007 - 12:58pm.Your example leads to all kinds of problems, not the least of which is whether or not the painter (you) knew the owner to be Jewish and did this painting out of spite for the owner's ideology, in which case, we're now talking about a possible hate crime (something along the lines of an accusatory "you killed our savior!").
Otherwise, yeah sure the owner has a something to bitch about. The owner didn't want her/his wall painted, and more likely than not could have done without one more reminder that Christianity is the dominant religious ideology in America. But minus genuine malice and intent to hurt here, we're still talking paint on walls. The cost and time it takes to cover the unwanted colors does not approach the cost and time of jail, filling our judicial dockets or recovering from a scuffle with the police. It seems like there're are a number of valuable things about a legal system, forcing it to take on petty crimes as if they were more than petty crimes is an extreme waste of resources.
This is why I think we should, as a community, be looking for alternative solutions that allow for the development of our community members' talents. Like it or not, painting on walls is a talent and by refusing to look for ways to foster it we're willfully denying our community potentially valuable resources. Imagine if we made music illegal because it infects the public airspace regardless of whether or not anyone wants to hear it. If Schoenberg were alive today in Olympia and decided to set up an impromptu performance in Sylvester Park, I bet he'd get the boot for noise pollution because a lot of people think it sounds like crap.
My big point with all of this is that we should be looking for ways to foster rather than stifle our community. The status quo has artists leaving for perceptually greener pastures (Portland, Seattle, San Francisco, etc.), and it's a damn shame.
Hmm, I see. As long as it's
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 08/07/2007 - 1:03pm.A wise man once suggested not arguing with morons, I think I'll follow his guidance.
are you serious?
Submitted by enpen on Tue, 08/07/2007 - 1:10pm.Or are you just looking to be a jerk, now? Here's a little something for your edification on hate crimes.
Who's being a jerk? I'd
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 08/07/2007 - 1:20pm.que?
Submitted by enpen on Tue, 08/07/2007 - 1:24pm.Did you even read what I wrote? Have you been reading it at all or just seeing what you want to, or what you think is there? I feel like I'm trying to have a conversation through playing telephone.
I read. I've been reading
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 08/07/2007 - 1:33pm.Some people see Art in dynamiting a mountain until some presidents appear. Maplethorpe saw art in taking photographs of men peeing in each other's mouths, and of full frontal naked prepubescent boys spread eagled. Why don't we paste that picture on someone's wall? Someone saw value in that piece of Art.
Do you own or rent your home? Are the walls, both inside and out, covered in spraypainted art?
A Buddihst wouldn't be
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 08/07/2007 - 1:39pm.Time to take a deep breath guys
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 08/07/2007 - 1:48pm.If you've been reading...
Submitted by enpen on Tue, 08/07/2007 - 1:52pm....then why are you ascribing positions to me that I don't hold? Why are you writing things like, "(a)nd anyone who automatically jumps on the Christianity equals Anti-Semitism bandwagon can kiss my ass" after I explicitly stated that it depends upon whether or not the Christian iconography is put up out of malice?
"I'd consider people who seriously believe it's their right to alter other peoples' property to be jerks."
When did I even say this? Where are you pulling this from? And what on earth makes you think I am anything other than a voyeur in the graffiti art movement?
Seriously, I'm sitting here flabbergasted. Here I am trying to get across that I think we as a community should be searching for constructive ways to deal with behaviors that no amount of laws and jails are going to stop, and there you are telling me I'm saying something completely different. And your last questions? They don't even have a logical basis in the argument I've been putting forward. They're like asking a Reagan Republican if she has a tank in her backyard.
These opinions
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 08/07/2007 - 1:54pm.ROFL
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 08/07/2007 - 2:07pm.Argh
Submitted by chaney on Tue, 08/07/2007 - 2:27pm.Does that stop people from having the same immaterial, psychological and emotional needs they've had for millenia? The same needs that have given rise to all art, all sprituality, all graffiti, and all religion? Hell no! What it does is marginalize people who are moved by those things. WHO decided that filling immaterial needs is an activity less worthy of a salary than standing at a cash register and selling bloody Cheetohs? When people can plainly see that the law and the economic system they live under is designed to exclude them, they lose respect for it and stop heeding it. See: Marijuana.
No amount of law enforcement or tough talk is going to stop graffiti. Never has, never will. Inclusion - as opposed to reactionary, divisive garbage like this Olympian article - would go a long way to solving the problem, but you know what? As long as private property exists in public spaces, this is going to happen. If you don't like people screwing with other people's property, there is one and only one solution: do away with the concept of private property. I know a few old growth forests who would thank you.
Or we could just become an
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 08/07/2007 - 2:35pm.A psychological and
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 08/07/2007 - 3:00pm.If you don't like people screwing with other people's property, there is one and only one solution: do away with the concept of private property. A twelve-gauge or a baseball bat would take of things on an individual basis. There could be Art in that.
I think it's time for you to
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 08/07/2007 - 10:19pm.We can all remember to relax
Submitted by Sarah on Wed, 08/08/2007 - 6:39am.Relax and enjoy and when it is time to take a break, take a break. I'm using this moment between Merwyn and Rob as a springboard, not personally focused on them. I swear, I think we could all use computer timers that periodically tell us to get offline away from the computer and take a walk.
I myself resolve that when someone tells me that I need to step away from a thread, I'll do so.
I've noticed everytime I'm
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 08/08/2007 - 8:41am.Merwyn,
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 08/08/2007 - 10:01am.Let's talk about the issues
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 08/08/2007 - 10:19am.That's what I was doing when you decided, once again, that my belief is offensive.
Sometimes you make it really hard to be here.
Likewise.
If you just want to be a dick, go back to the Olympian.
I want to be clear; am I going to be considered a dick everytime I don't follow your party line? All I want is for the artists to show some common courtesy to others. Enpen himself admitted he wouldn't be too happy if someone altered his property. Therefore, out of respect for Enpen, if I were an artist I'd leave his wall, fence, dumpster, etc. alone. Can't the artists show some same courtesy for non-artist wall owners?
Art is work.
Submitted by chaney on Wed, 08/08/2007 - 7:27pm.Goodwin's Law!!
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 08/03/2007 - 3:59pm.Godwin's Law
Submitted by Sarah on Wed, 08/08/2007 - 6:31am.I wasn't sure what it was so I looked it up: Godwin's Law or How to post about Nazis and get away with it.
Worth learning about.
Chaney, don't you think that
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 5:16pm.It's important that we
Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 08/03/2007 - 10:18am.There's a lot of artwork I
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Fri, 08/03/2007 - 10:24am.We are the precious chosen few, let all the rest be damned. There's only room for one or two, we can't have Heaven crammed!
Did The Olympian Get It Wrong?
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Fri, 08/03/2007 - 10:48am.My spin on the Olympian article is they mistook tagging for graffiti. There's a huge difference between art and most of the stuff you see around Olympia.
What I tend to see around Oly most is gang symbols and TESC vandalism on stop signs (STOP Bush) and their hate for capitalism and anti-environmentalism when they spray paint F*CK YOU and other disparaging remarks on signage for new homes and new home editions. I consider the art portion to be some of the nature scenes painted on the downtown buildings.
But bottom line is, if you don't have permission from the property owner, it's illegal and considered vandalism, not art, graffiti or tagging!
JstPlnOnry
?
Submitted by enpen on Sun, 08/05/2007 - 12:31am.Where do you see gang symbols? Granted, I haven't been looking for too long, but I haven't seen a single gang symbol around Oly since moving here. And I don't think anybody can accuse me of not looking...
Enpen ~ Check out the fence
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 4:34pm.on Kaiser Rd. on your way toward TESC. Right across from the entrance to Cedrona. Parts of it (where the people pulling out of Cedrona can see it) have been painted recently to cover the gang signs and deer smoking pot and 1+1=3 stuff but further down the road, most of it is still up. Give it time and I'm sure more will appear!
I witnessed one of the residents who lives behind the fence graffiting a wicked face with the words Christ coming out of it on the very evening the Cedrona residents had just finished painting the fence!
JstPlnOnry
when I can
Submitted by enpen on Tue, 08/07/2007 - 1:02pm.I definitely want to get down there to see the fence. That said, what you're describing sounds like just plain old graffiti and tags, not gang signs. But I'm writing from ignorance here instead of asking questions to lessen my ignorance of what you're talking about. Do you know what a gang sign is, Onry, or are you assuming that the graffiti is gang related?
Merwyn,
Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 08/03/2007 - 10:36am.I hope you're being
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Fri, 08/03/2007 - 10:51am.We are the precious chosen few, let all the rest be damned. There's only room for one or two, we can't have Heaven crammed!
I believe it to be true on
Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 08/03/2007 - 10:59am.In this case, these artists have no place, or not many, to practice their art, I think more freewalls are needed. It's kind of like skaters and skate parks, eventually they got them, and I hope the graffiti artists do too. I happen to really enjoy their art, I grew up in that culture though, and respect that some don't appreciate it as much, but that doesn't make it any less artistic. I'd like to see a "classically" trained artist recreate some of the better work around.
Well how 'bout that, we
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Fri, 08/03/2007 - 11:05am.I like a lot of what I see on the walls. I'm all for more people making walls available. I still need to side with an owner's right to say No.
We are the precious chosen few, let all the rest be damned. There's only room for one or two, we can't have Heaven crammed!
Larry
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Fri, 08/03/2007 - 11:21am.Jst....
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Fri, 08/03/2007 - 11:57am.:::chuckling:::
You must mean copy and paste, as I'm banned from posting in The Olympian.
Nothing that exciting. "Blah blah blah, TJ Johnson". "Blah Blah blah, I won't spend money in Olympia"
"There is only one race, the human race" - The Neville Brothers
Although I thought it was
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Fri, 08/03/2007 - 12:02pm.Oh yes.....sorry, I didn't mention that...LMAO
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Fri, 08/03/2007 - 12:12pm."There is only one race, the human race" - The Neville Brothers
from something I'm writing
Submitted by enpen on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 2:29pm.This entire conversation has spurred me on to write a persuasive essay regarding a social moral obligation to encourage things like painting on walls. Time being beyond my comprehension though, it'll take awhile yet for me to finish while this conversation rages on, so a few things I want to address while it's still going on:

The legality of graffiti isn't in question and it seems like the crux of the problem comes down to people butting heads over whether or not people have any right to paint on other people's walls without permission. Self-expression isn't a right, it's a human necessity. It's been going on for a long-long time and isn't going to stop because of some petty law. So how do we deal with this as a community? What if we encouraged our local arts commission through a series of letter writing campaigns to provide funds for more free walls? What if we wrote letters to local businesses letting them know their customer base would appreciate more art in the alleys? If we encourage the development of Olympia as a public art mecca through something as easy as the freeing of walls for artists, I guarantee tourism would pick up and local businesses would make far more money than they are now. So how about it? Wouldn't you all like to see something like the picture below show up on a wall in Olympia?
photo courtesy of The Wooster Collective
Seriously
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 5:12pm.The ideas seem sound. The problem is your last question. I'm not trying to be a butt, I do want to answer though. NO! I would not want that anywhere visible. It reminds me of those damn "garbage pale kids" they had when I was little. That is just about the grossest thing I have ever seen painted on a wall. I'm sure it has some kind of hidden symbolism, but I would much prefer a grey wall...maybe blue or green, but not that horror movie reject thing.
That's the thing about art, it's subjective. If I wanted to look at everyone's friggin art I'd go to a gallery. I don't want to drive around town and look at the local artists crap, particularly when it's 50 feet tall on a building! Isn't that what the arts walk was created for, so local artists could display their work? I would not want this thing anywhere in town. I'm inclined to ask if he was "on something" while he did it.
increase in business
Submitted by enpen on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 5:25pm.I guarantee you the business around this "horror movie reject thing" aren't lamenting the increase in their tourism trade.
But again, it's subjective.
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 5:26pm.Can the person who owns the wall
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 5:35pm.As long as it isn't profane
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 08/06/2007 - 5:54pm.NO!
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Tue, 08/07/2007 - 1:40pm.I would NOT like to see something like that showing up on walls in any town. I don't see it as art and I don't know why those who feel the need to 'express themselves' do it on private property without permission. Maybe it's because my home has fallen victim to spray painting and nobody sought my permission to paint ASIAN PRIDE & satanic symbols all over it.
If you need to express yourself by spray painting something, do it on your own house or apartment walls. There's little to nothing I see in any of the pictures you've shared since I joined that's pretty, eye appealing or a must have on a building. Especially a man on fire with a monk roasting a mashmallow over him or somebody about to be eaten or 1+1=3.
I'm going to ask but probably already know the answer to the question, how would you feel if I vandalized your property without your permission? Especially with something you find offensive?
I wouldn't write letters to local businesses asking them to allow this. The public art mecca belongs in shops where people are willing to pay for your works, not on buildings, dumpsters, alleys and sidewalks. I seriously doubt tourism would pick up and local businesses would make far more money than they are now too. The only way that's going to happen is to clean up downtown, not paint it up all hodgepodge, willy nilly with what might be considered offensive images to some.
I mean no disrespect or offense but you asked...
JstPlnOnry
Well, I'd say let the owner
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 08/07/2007 - 1:45pm.I doubt Enpen would share his address so I can paint his walls, even if I promise not to create any images he'd find offensive.
no worries
Submitted by enpen on Tue, 08/07/2007 - 5:51pm.No offense taken. To me one of the most glorious aspects of art is the multitude of human emotions it evokes. If we all agreed on aesthetics then it would be static and dead, instead it's alive and challenging. Where we modern art be if Monet had towed the realism line instead of sharing his impressions of the world? Van Gogh's art was so unappreciated by the status quo that he only sold a single painting in his lifetime. Art is transformative and ever changing because we are transformed and ever changed by the world around us, and people resist these changes because they're different and unfamiliar. This is the way it has always been, and I don't expect my vision of things to happen without ardent effort on my part. So yes, disagree with me and resist these changes in the ever evolving definition of art. It is who you are and your place in the human experience and I completely respect that.
To answer your questions, I'd certainly prefer not to have my place vandalized and I think I'd be pissed as I was putting it back to the way I want it. But aside from cases wherein I feel threatened as a result (e.g. hate crimes), I certainly don't think my property is worth jail time.
As far as whether or not turning Olympia into an art mecca would be beneficial to local businesses, of that there is little doubt. The picture I included above is a legal piece installed as part of an urban art exhibition in Berlin. Aside from the tourism euros generated by the exhibition moneyed art afficiantos are already traveling there to see it as well as the other installations. The city of Minneapolis recently played host to the B-Girl Be Summit which brings in major sponsorship dollars (Target and Toyota are biggies) as well as drives up the tourism trade and generates tax revenue through the sale of the art work. Urban artist Sam3 single handedly brought tourism dollars to dirt poor neighborhoods of Brazil. There are a lot of people throughout the world who disagree with your opinions on art and the disposable income to readily spend just to be a part of the happening that is seeing world renowned public art in person. Granted, this isn't my rationale for wanting Olympia to become an art mecca (I just want a world full of art), but a lot of people seem to only speak in money symbolism and it's a verifiable fact that art generates tourism and the associated dollars. This is why museums spend so much on their collections and their architects. The modern urban art movement is the art community attempting to take back its art from these corporate controlled institutions and give equitable distribution of the visual experience (not everyone can afford to go to museums). I applaud and support that.
You know Seattle used to have a program like this...
Submitted by oldtimeydave on Wed, 08/08/2007 - 8:16pm.I can remember two good examples that are probably still up.
1) If you've been to Woodland Park Zoo and parked on the North side of the park there is an underpass beneath Phinney and in that tunnel is a mural. That piece was one of the murals my friend designed.
I actually found some information and writing about the the organization, that piece and the entire process they went through to get it done. Very interesting. Some one may want to post it if you think it is relevant enough.
2) Also on both sides of the Ballard side of the Ballard Bridge are a few more pieces.
It was all very cool. They took ugly city concrete which was at high risk for tagging and graffiti anyway and created public murals and art. Believe or those pieces remained tag free and graffiti free.
I have to say I knew a few aerosol artist and most of them would be offended to be referred to as a tagger. Regardless of free walls or private property it is so not the same thing.
I deem it relevant enough.
Submitted by oldtimeydave on Wed, 08/08/2007 - 8:37pm.Here is a link to document you'll find this portion about at the halfway point.
Sample Projects, In First Person…
57th Street Underpass Murals
If You Can’t Beat ‘em ... Back in 1994, Lise Ward and some of her neighbors were sitting together at someone’s house, drinking coffee and talking about the graffiti that kept appearing in the 57th Street underpass nearby. They had spent every weekend in January and February painting out the graffiti. And every week it reappeared. So, said Ward, “we figured, if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.” Through the Phinney Ridge Community Council, they applied for a Neighborhood Matching Fund Small and Simple Projects award to install a mural on both walls of the underpass.
By October the mural was done. What had been an ugly tunnel became an attractive passageway — one that has deterred graffiti. Less tangibly but even more importantly, the project in its planning and execution brought together neighborhood organizations, adults, at-risk youth, and children — the neighborhood became that much more of a neighborhood.
First Steps
Ward, who volunteered as project manager, knew that she had organizational skills but no artistic skills. So she did some investigating and “all roads led to Rob Mattson,” coordinator for the Ballard Neighborhood Service Center. Mattson recommended Saundra Valencia, a mixed-media artist who directed Street Smart Art. “We were a perfect team,” said Ward: “I did the organizing and she coordinated the detail work and artistic work.”
Street Smart Art was a former organization that not only designed and managed the installation of art; it also gave kids opportunities to provide leadership. For this project, Street Smart artists first developed preliminary designs. Because the underpass is near Woodland Park Zoo, it was decided that the mural’s theme would involve animals. Street Smart Art presented a design of “Mexican-style drawings with wild, impressionistic images of animals such as an elephant, giraffe and the kangaroo monkey, set against backgrounds of a blue sky and bright orange sunset.”
The public had two months in which to comment on the designs. The designs were published in local newspapers, posted in public gathering spots — “all over,” said Ward — and directly circulated to tunnel neighbors. All public comments went to a five-member design review panel. The design panel of local residents included both artists and non-artists. Taking into consideration the wide variety of comments and the subjective nature of design review, the panel addressed only those concerns that came up repeatedly in the written comments. It then approved the design with two recommendations. The final revised design was then submitted to the Phinney Ridge Community Council, the Zoo and the Seattle Engineering Department for final approval.
At that time, the tunnel was the Engineering Department’s jurisdiction. (Please note: a mural project in a tunnel is now Seattle Department of Transportation’s jurisdiction.) Engineering’s concerns in general were that murals have non-controversial designs (that is, no political slogans) and use brushed-on exterior latex paint. Since it would be responsible for maintaining the tunnel, the Department especially wanted to ensure that a clear sealer be applied to the finished mural to help protect against weather and allow easy removal of graffiti.
The project waited to apply for a Street Use Permit until after receiving notice of the award from the Neighborhood Matching Fund. Ward also coordinated with the Zoo through its community liaison. The Zoo provided general support and also offered to arrange sketching tours for the design artists. Ward, Valencia, and the lead Street Smart artist attended a Zoo administration staff meeting to address design concerns.
Ward arranged for donated paints and materials. “We got a lot of support from businesses,” she said — “people were really generous.” The project collected over 23 gallons of paint plus sealer. Later on, it would be the task of neighbors who had pledged labor to pick up and store the donated materials (including a porta-potty), buy what still remained to be purchased, and handle the day-of-event logistics needed to install the murals.
Neighborhood Recruitment
While the design was being presented for comment, Ward was doorbelling the residential area surrounding the tunnel for support and matching assistance. To organize volunteer labor for the actual painting, Ward divided the day into two-hour shifts, 12 persons per shift (including room for day-of-event walk-ups). She made sure to offer plenty of other ways to volunteer as well. The project’s Neighborhood Matching Fund application included a list of dozens of persons pledging hundreds of hours.
“I’ve been told I’m kind of persuasive,” said Ward. “I believe in my heart that people do want to help — mostly you have to spend the time to figure out what people can and want to do. You need to offer people specific tasks. There was one woman whose entire task was to arrange for, then pick up and deliver, the orange drink. Someone else might want to put in one hour on the design panel.”
Someone had the job of collecting the comment sheets from the 10 locations where the design was posted. Some volunteers sat at the sign-in table for an hour. Someone — and this was essential — was Ward’s gofer on the day of the event. “If you believe in the project and have rapport with people, you find that people want to help to whatever extent they can.”
Ward reiterated the need to spend time with people to figure out what they can do. But, she admits, when in the first two hours of doorbelling she’d hit only five or six houses, it seemed like it was taking an agonizingly long time. Then, “just as I was starting to get desperate I hit a condominium that was willing to commit to 12 people for the painting. These people were excited about the project — you could tell that in that building, people talked to each other.”
Finally, all the shifts were filled. The painting would be done by design professionals and apprentices (there were six managing Street Smart artists), area neighbors and their children, and representatives from neighborhood organizations — public and private schools, churches, service groups, youth groups.
Four Days, Many Moments
The installation was divided into prep work on Friday, two-hour-long painting shifts most of Saturday and Sunday, then touch-ups on Monday.
At 3:30 p.m. on Friday, Ward and the Street Smart artists put up street barricades, projected the design onto the walls, and began drawing the outlines of the animals. When the outlining was completed, it became apparent that the change from an 8.5-by-11-inch sketch to an 85-foot wall left some gaps in the design. Around midnight, the team made an executive decision to add a few additional animals and landscape features. The additions would compensate for the gaps but still maintain the integrity of the already-approved design.
On Saturday morning, volunteers set up donated coffee and pastries and taped plastic on the sidewalk and street while the Street Smart artists finished laying out the design. People began to arrive, looking for paintbrushes. The mural project had co-advertised with an exhibit preview at the Zoo that day, and after the preview, around 1:00 p.m., the crowds really began to arrive.
A bagpipe player provided music. He had been recommended to Ward by another neighbor when she was going door-to-door, and when she contacted him he was delighted to come, “kilt and all.” A couple of massage therapists came and brought their table. Several people with art training just showed up.
Ward had arranged for an hour-long press event in the early afternoon. She had sent out handmade invitations — “we invited everybody.” City officials and neighborhood leaders spoke, and both a local TV station and newspaper covered the event. Former Mayor Rice drove through after the mural was completed.
The painting continued through the afternoon until, around 4:00 p.m., all the spots on the wall low enough for kids to reach were filled. Much to her own disappointment, Ward had to call two Girl Scout troops and warn them of the lack of work. Happily, they wanted to come anyway, and were able to participate in the event and enjoy some donated ice cream bars.
Paint began to run low in the afternoon and a volunteer dashed out to buy more (the merchant gave the project a good discount).
Sunday started with more coffee and pastries. As on Saturday, all the people scheduled to paint showed up, but there was less walk-up traffic. The Street Smart artists were able to take more time instructing volunteers on fine-line and shading techniques at adult and ladder levels. Ward smiled: “It was great seeing respectable-looking Phinney Ridge neighbors taking directions from youths in baggy pants.” The public drifted out around 5:00 p.m. and the Street Smart Artists stayed to do some more touching up.
“There were so many moments — great neighborhood moments,” said Ward. “One man I conned into volunteering came Sunday afternoon and painted sky for three hours. He was so proud of his piece of sky. He came back with his wife and showed her his piece of the sky. It’s really all about moments.”
An Organizing Tip
“To keep a project organized,” said Lise Ward, “I use The Binder System.” The Binder System? “I had this black binder I carried everywhere. In it I had sections for the Neighborhood Matching Fund, the Transportation Department, public comments, volunteer labor, scheduling, budget, donated items. But the very first thing to start in it is your contact list — every person you talk to who’s in any way interested, put down their name and number. I still consult that list. It’s a great system for people operating on a shoestring when you don’t have the luxury of an office or even a filing cabinet.”
Graffiti
Ward believes that the only effective response to graffiti involves three steps cycling together: (1) prosecution and restitution, (2) painting out, and (3) an arts program as an alternative activity. Participation in art can offer an alternative to youth who are contemplating tagging or who have just completed their community service hours after being caught. Taggers tend to be young men between the ages of 12 and 20. Some live in Phinney, she said: “these are middle-class kids with after-school jobs who have $200 a month to spend on spray cans. You have to take that energy and guide it into positive activity. You have to provide legal venues. And you have to establish rapport with youth.” If the art done by the youth working with Street Smart Art was any indication, ex-taggers are capable of creating beautiful and useful murals that are socially enriching.
Finishing Up
On the day after the mural was painted, using the names and addresses from the sign-in sheet, Ward sent approximately 200 thank-you postcards to the people who had participated. She used the pre-stamped postcards that the post office sells for the price of the postage. On one side she pasted a color-Xeroxed snapshot of the mural. On the other side she hand wrote her thanks (and included a small plug for Street Smart Art). From those 200 cards, a handful of people called Ward to offer their services on any future projects. Those volunteers made a good beginning for a database of neighborhood volunteers.
Next Time
Asked what she would do differently next time, Ward said that the two big things would be to provide sufficient child-height painting and to anticipate how much garbage a mural generates.
She suggested getting kids in to paint early on, during a one-day installation, or on the first day only of a two-day installation. As well, project organizers could make panels or canvas boards available for kids in case the walls became fully painted.
As for the garbage — well, even the best organizer can forget something. Ward said she hadn’t even thought about it until the paint tarps, drop cloths, and paint cans began piling up in her carport. Fortunately, a neighbor let her borrow his large pickup truck to make a trip to the transfer station. She also returned the leftover paint to the hazardous waste disposal facility there.
Ward is optimistic. “Often you need a catalyst in a neighborhood. But once the project gets going, it just snowballs. You may feel like you’re going out on a limb. But you get a few commitments and then other folks think, ‘Well, I’d better do it too.’”
“I got to know a lot of people,” said Ward of the time she spent organizing the project, “and even if I don’t remember their names, we see each other on the street and wave.”
In 2005, the 57th Street Underpass murals can still be found on 57th Street just east of Greenwood Avenue North.
Here is a link to another
Submitted by oldtimeydave on Wed, 08/08/2007 - 9:00pm.Sounds like the middle ground here is
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 08/07/2007 - 6:11pm.too much Jane Jacobs & and her broken windows
Submitted by chad360 on Sat, 08/11/2007 - 11:16am.Whose wall is it? >ownership is a bunk concept<
The only thing I'm not down with is messing with traffic signs, everything else is fair game--
I support murals and art, and to some extent the comics that are called graffiti
I caught the last 10 minutes
Submitted by Norm on Sun, 08/12/2007 - 11:47am.I caught the last 10 minutes of cops last night. There were 2 cops dispatched to a possible vandalism at the local school. At the school were 2 guys sitting there smoking giving the cops dirty looks to their questions. And guess what? ONE of them had black paint all over his right hand! He at first denied that he did it, then decided to go with the truth. He then proceeded to tell the cops that they were living a lie, that capitalism was a farce and other horrors of our society and how they'll never know until they open their eyes (which was part of the message). The cops tried to explain that it wasn't their property and they weren't allowed to do that, that they were breaking the law. Kid says, "I'd do it again."
So they arrested him. Me? I felt better. Just watching that video made me thing This is exactly what these "artists" think about others property. I think we should come up with some more free-wall area, I think that's a good idea. I don't think I will ever get to the point where I would condone spray painting a building that you don't have permission to do so.