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Feb 14 2008 - 6:00pm Feb 14 2008 - 9:00pm From OMUG:
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OlyBlog.net OlyBlog is devoted to hyperlocal news and discussion specifically about Olympia, Washington. Contributors to OlyBlog are citizen journalists who care about their community and are tired of corporate media. If you'd like to contribute, please register for an account. Here is a list of local news beats that need to be covered. You can post your news as a personal blog entry, and it will be reviewed (and possibly edited) for promotion to the front page. You can also send news via email. All members of OlyBlog agree to abide by our Social Contract. You should also look at our comment and fair use policies. If you are frustrated about something said in a comment thread, go here. Olyblogger of the Month: Docents are fellow citizen journalists who volunteer to be at your service in order to help with any blog-related issues. They are: Rob RichardsInterests: community building; participatory art, democracy and economics; local politics; citizen journalism. emmettoconnell Interests: City Council, developing a local issues forum. enpen Interests: OlyBlog poster calendar, Olympia public art, local artist interviews, his family, poetry and stuff. Robert Whitlock Interests: peace, justice, nature, nonviolence, media, environment Rick Interests: citizen journalism, hyperlocal media, the knowledge commons. Docent email list Latest Classified Ads Books & Collections ›Blog Local 
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I clicked, but am not sure
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 02/13/2008 - 3:14pm.Now take a little while to find your way in here
Now take a little while to make your story clear.
Nick Drake
Not exactly sure, it just
Submitted by emmettoconnell on Wed, 02/13/2008 - 3:19pm.Chris Brownell
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Wed, 02/13/2008 - 3:43pm.Chris Brownell's Personal Website
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 11:35am.I originally discovered his
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 11:57am.For a different way to view the world check out bert's site: http://robwhitlock.blogspot.com
Sarah's Goodreads is plenty interesting. Phil, of course, always finds a way to teach me something new. S6 is coming along smoothly despite some attempts to vilify him. Larry and JustP need to post more often.
Meanwhile, my boss has been disappointed that I haven't gone ballistic online lately.
Yeah
Submitted by enpen on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 12:13pm.I haven't gone ballistic online lately.
Not only that but you've often been the most centered and calm voice in the middle of poop storms on OlyBlog. What's with that? You're like that kid in 6th grade who suddenly has hairy legs and a deep voice.
On that note, Bert, you just pulled the equivalent of shooting a spit wad at the kid renowned for spit wads.
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
I don't know about "deep
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 12:19pm.You really think I've been (mostly) centered and calm lately? Don't get me wrong, I actually make an effort - I just didn't know it was noticeable. I think part of it is I've been in full agreement of the "keep it local" policy for awhile. Also, and I don't mean this as a gripe or insult, I've given up on most docent-related issues after realizing that, really, what's the point?
It's been enjoyable if you ask me.
I hope you don't mean that I vilified Monsieur 6.
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 12:18pm.I don't know if this was
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 12:30pm.If his use of "vermin" is enough to justify sticking him with the label then there's no hope for me: I own Wagner CDs, books by Anne Morrow Lindburgh, have an interest in Norse and Teutonic folklore, and took five years of German.
I try not to bring Nazis into these conversations
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 12:33pm.That's fine, I personally am
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 12:37pm.Same here...
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 12:45pm.For the record security_six is nothing close to a Nazi.
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 12:42pm.The term "vermin" evokes Nazis to many of us.
Cowboys and farmers use "varmit", for the most part, n'est pas?
I don't see any concerted effort...
Wotan's Blood! I own Wagner CD's, too. By Gog, I even have Evergreen credit for studying his music dramas. I even have the libretto for The Ring (Coming soon to an Opera House near you).
If anything, six was "vilifying" the honorable Senator from the great state of Illinois.
If I have offended - I apologize.
No worries -Perhaps Six
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 12:46pm.Perhaps Six should convert to what Larry Flynt's rag used to do. They'd have an a$$hole of the month, complete with a picture of their puckered face cheekily superimposed.
Unfortunately I wouldn't agree with half his choices but it's his opinion.
There is a comparrison for you!
Submitted by Tschida on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 1:54pm.My blog as compared to Mr. Whitlocks. World's apart doesn't begin to describe it.
image credit: Robert Whitlock
C.
Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
Is Islamophobia
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 1:58pm.Huh? What are you getting
Submitted by Ehver Green on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 2:02pm.If you go to his site it is rather clear.
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 3:25pm.But I guess the bigger
Submitted by Ehver Green on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 3:28pm.But I guess the bigger question for me is are you playing the ball or player? I guess since the post is about Chris it's a bit open. I've been to Chris' site. I don't have a problem with it.
Whitlock should be suspended and made to write 3 articles for his obvious attempt to disrupt Olyblog. This thread was dying and he felt the need to bring it back. Why? Because he says one thing and does another.
Gd pnt abt Mr.Whtlck, G
Submitted by Tschida on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 3:48pm.H s nt th nl dcnt wh lvs b th "d s I sy nt s d!"
C.
Tfs1F1.blgspt.cm
n f th grt nn squtrs f th lft s tht, f th fr mrkt dsn't wrk prfctl, thn t dsn't wrk t ll-- nd th gvrnmnt shld stp n.
Thomas Sowell
Ya, I agree that it wasn't a good move on Rob's part
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 3:56pm.LOL Bigoted? Based on what?
Submitted by Tschida on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 4:12pm.From Websters...
a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
So does it fit? Hmmm.
If I posted the stuff about Italian Facism from the 1930's or stuff from Communist Russia under Stalin would that be bigoted to point out that their systems of government and ideology that persecuted Jews, Christians, Gypsies, and so on? No I don't think any clear minded person would be intellectually dishonest enough to say that I was being bigoted. But in todays age of moral relativism held by the left, it is "bigoted" to condemn a group of people who openly publicly and willfully kill innocent men, women and children, to further a political agenda. Worse they do it under the guise of a so-called religion which calls for the subjugation or murder of 'infidels' and even singles out Jews for this kind of treatment.
Gg, cld y pssbl b mr dshnst? s tht vn pssbl?
C.
Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
I'll just wait for EG to
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 4:24pm.S ts k t ccs smn f bgtr bt....
Submitted by Tschida on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 4:28pm.Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
I do not believe that you sufficiently distinguish between
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 4:36pm.To the best of my knowledge...
Submitted by Tschida on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 4:48pm.Cat Stevens and Keith Ellison are not radical militant Muslims. However I don't see them anywhere, not to say the specifically don't, but I don't see them rejecting the ideology that is offered in the Koran, I don't seem to hear about them or many other 'moderate' muslims condemning terror attacks on innocents. I don't hear muslims coming to the defense of gays or christians or any other people they find to be infidels.
So yes there so called moderate muslims, there is a distinction but some how I doubt that any of this really matters to you. It is simply an excersize in semantics isn't it?
C.
Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
In "Cat Steven's" own words...
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 3:36pm."I wish to express my heartfelt horror at the indiscriminate terrorist attacks committed against innocent people of the United States yesterday. While it is still not clear who carried out the attack, it must be stated that no right-thinking follower of Islam could possibly condone such an action. The Qur'an equates the murder of one innocent person with the murder of the whole of humanity. We pray for the families of all those who lost their lives in this unthinkable act of violence as well as all those injured; I hope to reflect the feelings of all Muslims and people around the world whose sympathies go out to the victims of this sorrowful moment."
Quoted by Andrew Dansby in Rolling Stone, September 17, 2001
I agree..
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 4:47pm.I guess I consider it as much a religion as Unitarian =).
Submitted by Tschida on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 4:51pm.Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
Surely, you must admit that Islam has some...
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 5:12pm.redeeming qualities?
A quick wiki search found this: "In the Qur'an, God (Allah in Arabic), states (2:62): Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve."
http://en.wikipedia.org/
My Brother Esau
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 5:21pm.By John Barlow
My brother Esau killed a hunter
Back in 1969
And before the killing was done,
His inheritance was mine.
But his birthright was a wand to wave
Before a weary band.
Esau gave me sleeplessness
And a piece of moral land.
My father favored Esau,
Who was eager to obey
All the bloody wild commandments
The Old Man shot his way.
But all this favor ended
When my brother failed at war.
He staggered home
And found me in the door.
[Chorus:]
Esau skates on mirrors anymore...
He meets his pale reflection at the door.
Yet sometimes at night I dream
He's still that hairy man,
Shadowboxing the Apocalypse
And wandering the land.
Shadowboxing the Apocalypse
And wandering the land.
Esau holds a blessing;
Brother Esau bears a curse.
I would say that the blame is mine
But I suspect it's something worse.
The more my brother looks like me,
The less I understand
The silent war that bloodied both our hands.
Sometimes at night, I think I understand.
It's brother to brother and it's man to man
And it's face to face and it's hand to hand...
We shadowdance the silent war within.
The shadowdance, it never ends...
Never ends, never ends.
Shadowboxing the Apocalypse, yet again...
Yet again.
Shadowboxing the Apocalypse,
And wandering the land.
I thought
Submitted by security_six on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 7:11pm.Islam was supposed to accept Christians and Jews as "people of the book" or some such like that? I judge an individual practioner of a religion based on their actions. If they are trying to blow me up, I'm not going to blame the whole religion, but will curse their diety if I miss my aim :-) One cannot judge any group by the violent fringes that congregate on it's outsides.
"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." The Dalai Lama (May 15, 2001, The Seattle Times)The disemvowelled edit echos
Submitted by Ehver Green on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 7:09pm.Indeed you are
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 10:25am.Since someone edited my post I will post it again...
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 3:03pm.and again and again until when ever...
I don't think it is intellectually honest of you or abides by the speech code to call someone a bigot and then go on to condecend and say you are 'stepping out this tar pit' considering you are the one throwing out the insults. I think you owe me an apology for your insipid remark. C.
Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
I did respond to you.
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 3:11pm.Where? Am i missing it?
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 3:25pm.Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
I siad
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 3:27pm.We are not discussing 'moderate' Islam
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 3:31pm.I said this, makeing a clear distinction between the two. And yet you seem to think it is permissible to call me a bigot.
That is a clear and example supported distinction. You owe me an apology.
C.
Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
"So yes, there are so called moderates..."
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 3:53pm.QED
Anyway, I didn't call you a bigot. I characterized some of the material on your blog as "Islamophobic," "anti-Islamic," or "bigotted." I see no reason to characterize that matterial any other way.
It would seem that what is clear...
Submitted by Tschida on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 3:46pm.Is a lack of interest/ability/willingness to discuss the obvious disconnect between what is said about Islam by the left in America, and what is actually happening in the world at the hands of radial muslims.
But I guess that is not open for discussion...
Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
I'm listening...
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 9:45pm.You could start with extreme examples of the left's beliefs
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 2:06pm.such as those offered by lunatics like Ward Churchill. We can go back to the actions of Jim McDermott fraternizing with the enemy of this nation, or Senator Patty Murry defending Osama Bin Terrorist to a group of school children.
Even Mr.Whitlock's own remarks about zionism and how the Israelis terrorize and persecute muslims in that part of the world.
C.
Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
nt
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 2:26pm.What about Ron Paul...?
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 2:55pm.I am not sure what you are referring to exactly.
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 3:35pm.Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
Jim McDemott was charged and convicted?
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 3:43pm.I don't know much about Mark whoever.
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 4:35pm.If he supported terrorists, then put him in jail. I would have to wonder about his Conservative Bona Fides, but I don't know about that so much. As for Murry, perhaps you need to find the video and see for yourself. I am sure you can find it on you tube or some where.
Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
How 'bout Mark Deli Siljander?
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 3:52pm.Islamophobia? Fear of Islam? I don't think so...
Submitted by Tschida on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 2:16pm.Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
If Americans aren't fearful of Radical Islam
Submitted by JT on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 4:05pm.they aren't paying attention.
enpen, thanks for taking notice of Bert and saying something,
"Forgiving or punishing the terrorists is left to God. But, fixing their appointment with God is our responsibility."
itchyhitch.blogspot.com
So what does OMUG stand for?
Submitted by Laurian on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 5:48pm.And what was Chris B.'s meeting about? What was he offering to our community?
I'm sorry but I seem to have missed that information in yet another inane back and forth over which Adamistic monotheism is bad. I now understand how 100's of millions are killed over religious differences when a group of intelligent people on Olyblog so easily descend into pointless name calling.
As an atheist I think all religions banal. Like the choice someone makes about whom to sleep with, what one believes about God is a personal decision I really don't care about unless one won't shut the fuck up about it.
Anyway, does someone care to tell us what this meeting is about?
I'm with you...
Submitted by Rick on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 6:16pm....the thing that makes my mind hurt is the willingness of some conservatives to generalize about populations of people based on ethnic or religious factors, but when you ask them to make generalizations based on public health concerns (e.g., guns, drug abuse, etc.), they immediately focus on individual factors and anecdote. What's up with that?
I think the original post wasn't really the point (OMUG stands for Olympia Microcomputer Users Group). It was just that Chris (Tschida) was associated with it. I too wish Rob W. would have restrained himself from bringing this post back from the dead.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Because
Submitted by security_six on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 6:36pm.Some conservatives believe in individual choices, actions and responsibilities, and rather than demand society as whole (with the force of government behind it as is usually the socialist's choice) enforce personal responsibility on someone, we demand that an individual accept and take responsibility for their actions. Look at guns since you brought them up. I've shown that there is a nearly 1 in a million chance of a child under 18 accidentally shooting themselves with a gun. Yet when that happens, there is usually a huge outcry from the socialist left demanding individual freedoms and liberties be stripped, curtailed or limited. Over what amounts to a statistical anamoly. It is sad and tragic, but one CANNOT LEGISTLATE RESPONSIBILITY, one can teach it and encourage society to move along in that direction, and provide some carrots and sticks (click it or ticket) or as in Texas, if little Junior gets ahold of gun and causes damage to himself or others, guess what? Mommy and Daddy go to Jail for allowing darling little Junior to do this.
Personal accountibility, not society being accountable.
I want the government to keep as far out of my life and my actions as possible. So-called public health actions, etc, etc, etc equate the government having more control over me than they have any business. Right now it costs me more money when I buy a handgun because of some bozo writing a law requiring I purchase a lock with that gun. They can't force me to use it, but by golly they can make sure I have to pay for one. (Purchasing used handguns from pawnshops require a new lock be purchased or one be present and the dealer has to sign off on that, it's Federal IIRC) So now I'm out extra money for something that should have been my choice. Guess what, I don't use trigger locks. My guns are secured in a different fashion, just as safe. But some leftist made sure his useless feel good legislation went through and cost me money I could have spent elsewhere.
And so on and so on.
"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." The Dalai Lama (May 15, 2001, The Seattle Times)Now that is a great sig line! :)
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 6:39pm.Used it before
Submitted by security_six on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 6:43pm.But it seems to require less thought to understand than the words of a vilian. I've got a great line from Ghandi as well...
Mohandas K. Gandhi: "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest. If we want the Arms Act to be repealed, if we want to learn the use of arms, here is a golden opportunity. If the middle classes render voluntary help to Government in the hour of its trial, distrust will disappear, and the ban on possessing arms will be withdrawn." Mohandas K. Gandhi, Autobiography: The Story of My Experiments with Truth, Chapter XXVII, Recruiting Campaign, Page 403, Dover paperback edition, 1983.
This was from WWI where the English needed help from India badly. Ghandi saw this as an opportunity to regain arms for his people. The ones the British had taken away to ensure they remained in power.
"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." The Dalai Lama (May 15, 2001, The Seattle Times)Obviously, that's what you think...
Submitted by Rick on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 6:51pm....but that's not what I asked. What I asked was why the same principles aren't applied to other topics such as terrorism, for example. All of a sudden, it isn't the insane actions of a few extremists, it becomes the very doctrine of a whole religion.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Human nature
Submitted by security_six on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 7:05pm.The biggest impact with a label on it, true or false becomes the standard by which that label is judged.
If someone goes and shoots up a mall, all of a sudden it becomes uncomfortable to be a gun owner. In some circles simply being a male is enough to get the women present upset, extending their past problems with men to all men.
Same thing with terrorists. A few guys in turbans hollering "Allah is great" become the standards by which all other Muslims, good bad or indifferent are judged. Some crazy poligiamist sect in Texas makes all Mormons look funny in some people's eyes.
First people see the threat. Then they see the label that threat carries. Then they apply that threat to all else who bear the same label. "Muslim" "Mormon" "Gun Owner" "Man" "Woman" "Gay "Straight" "Black" "White" whatever. I know there are places where you wouldnt want to be in because you are white. You can reason and talk all you want with they guys shaking you down, but they don't want the "honky $@#$#@%*!" in their neighborhood. Hate, suspcision, social programming have all conspired against you. Same thing with any other race.
I'm sure a psyscology major could tell you all of this. Different people who do bad things scare other people. If that different person is another skin tone or religion than you, then the part of our brains that gets scared reason that all of that group must be bad.
Why conservatives are prone more to this? I have no idea. I'm a libertarian. Everyone laughs at me :-)
"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." The Dalai Lama (May 15, 2001, The Seattle Times)So
Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 10:16am.I don't want to read you wrong, so please clarify.
My experience tells me that your ideas about, for instance, why women are angry at men, are leaving out some pretty important fundamental factors. You and I are both white men. We are not racist or sexist because of that, yet our gender and race give us advantages over others because our society, and the systems created by it, are racist and sexist, to varying degrees, and depending on where you are. From what I can glean from my experience, and admittedly there have been exceptions here and there, Women are not angry at Us just because we're men, but because we act like men (in accordance with societal norms).
Didn't come across as a justification
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 10:34am.What is incredibly sad about the Dalai Lama quote is....
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 2:13am.That it has been used out of context. He went on to say that use of a gun should be limited to injuring your attacker to protect yourself but not to kill.
Yet, all over the internet the edited version exists, because the gun promoters have posted it so much.
I read the entire quote the other day and now it's buried in cyberspace with the bastardised versions of his word.
That is a fanciful and ignorant view of self defense
Submitted by security_six on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 7:00pm.One is not taught to shoot to kill or shoot to wound, but to shoot to stop. Only elite shooters (miltary, para military law enforcement, etc..) train to shoot to kill. Everyone else shoots to stop. Only a person with no realistic understanding of self defense shootings would seriously advocate shooting to wound. In fact claiming you shot to wound can open up an enormous amount of legal trouble for you. For instance if you shot only to wound, that could mean shooting wasn't justified as shooting is viewed as lethal force... and so on. You shoot to stop. Sometimes the bad guy lives, sometimes the bad guy dies. You shoot for center of mass and keep shooting until the attacker(s) are down. One shot, two shots, the full cylinder, whatever it takes to put your attacker on the ground. That is reality, and a painful one I would be happy to never face. Anything else is pie in the sky dreaming.
S6 did an awesome job of covering deadly force in self-defense,
Submitted by JT on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 7:10pm.I would only modify one point. You keep applying the defensive force until the bad guy stops his attacking behavior. He might be on the ground and still fighting and attacking. And the deadly force, or even lesser force could be applied by something other than a firearm. Regardless you only apply force until the bad behavior stops and your risk is minimized like S6 mentioned. I know this is what S6 meant, but I thought I would add my two cents.
"Forgiving or punishing the terrorists is left to God. But, fixing their appointment with God is our responsibility."
itchyhitch.blogspot.com
Thanks
Submitted by security_six on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 7:21pm.For the clarification. In an ideal confrontation the mere presence of a weapon is enough to deter someone, which is why I try and open carry whenever possible. Sends a loud and clear message to go somewhere else, which saves me a lot of grief. Ammo is so pricey these days too... :-)
Oh...and I'm with Laurian
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 2:17am.Although I don't consider myself an atheist, per se, I'm always amused at the "my god is better than your god" argument waged by many people of religion.
Historically, all deity worshipping religions are about fear motivation, control and, it seems eventually some form or another of violence.
Nothing like a good finger pointing to get the focus off your own backyard.
Oh Larry
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 10:02am.Gug
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 1:20pm.Yes, the apples and oranges that compose the mob
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 1:52pm.well,
Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 2:33pm.I think you are wrong about the most murderous regimes being irreligious. How many were killed during crusades compared to some of the regimes you're thinking of, for instance? If you count the genocide of indigenous people in this country, which was carried out under the guise of Manifest Destiny, how do the others compare? According to holocaust expert David Cesarani, "in terms of the sheer numbers killed, the Native American Genocide exceeds that of the Holocaust".
I think I said "some of the most" murderous
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 3:14pm.and I would easily put Stalin's numbers up against the crusades any time (not that one was better than the other). I could go on about the real motivations behind many of the other examples in history...like Manifest Destiny...which is a nationalistic doctrine, not a religious one. Tribalism, greed, and fear, are all the common denominators in my opinion. What deity did the Golden Horde worship before they converted to Islam? Anyway, like you said, the most peaceful road is to agree we disagree.
To counter some of the rather defamatory rhetoric on this thread I'd like to recommend a book I read this weekend on my trip to the poppy fields of California. It is Islam: A Short History, by Karen Armstrong (the former Catholic nun who also wrote The History of God). It is an easy read considering the break-neck speed at which it summarizes the history of that religion. As someone who likes to think he's knowledgeable about such things, I learned quite a bit...especially, how ignorant I am. I highly recommend this to anyone who wants to learn more about Islam without all the polemical polution we are subjected to on a daily basis. I have a copy if anyone is interested.
a response to a vanished comment
Submitted by enpen on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 3:14pm.Here is a difference between Christianity and Islam. Christians are supposed to live a life as much like Christ as possible. Even with all the failings of humans...But the issue goes well beyond that into the very doctine and this doctrine is a rallying point for those who commit acts of terror.
Unless I'm mistaken, you're unabashedly Christian. Isn't part of being Christlike loving your enemy as your friend? Accepting that those whose will you take as evil are those without the light of Yahweh and that they are the ones most in need of you sharing the light of the Love He shares with you?
Part of the strong rallying cry to extremist Islam right now is the characterization of the U.S., Israeli and European militaries as being instruments of anti-Islam mentality. Comments such as yours reinforce that notion.
I think that your eyes are opened up so wide looking at somebody else's hate that you cannot see your own.
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
Loving my enemy is a one on one thing.
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 3:22pm.excusing and justification of terror and murder of innocents is not permissible and thus I don't see a contradiction. If I reject someone for being muslim I have a big problem. If I reject them because they are supporting murder and terror, I am doing the right thing. I can call evil, evil. It is as simple as that.
As for your notion that the actions of terrorists is because people hold terrorists and their supporters to account is causing the very terror they are committing is laughable. You have it back wards. Perhaps it is the 10,925 deadly terror attacks by muslims which is causing the world to blame and reject Islam and it is not the other way around!
C.
Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
is it?
Submitted by enpen on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 3:51pm.If I reject someone for being muslim I have a big problem. If I reject them because they are supporting murder and terror, I am doing the right thing. I can call evil, evil. It is as simple as that.
Will you please point out the passage in the Bible to me where Christ instructs that we humans are capable of singling out evil in His domain? So far I've seen you lump anyone who shares faith but doesn't loudly denounce radicals as a person who supports the actions of terrorists. In past posts you also seem to be pointing that way with those who question American actions abroad. That is big brotherism. People are entitled their private lives and silence means nothing more than silence. Concentrate on those who are explicit in their hate in your labels. Anything else is self-representational and then yes, Guglielmo saying your views are biggoted is correct.
As for your notion that the actions of terrorists is because people hold terrorists and their supporters to account is causing the very terror they are committing is laughable.
That's not my notion. My notion is that extremism always exists and its results are always unpredictable and seem to be deadly more often than moderatism...and especially minimalism. My notion is that there exist climates that make extremism more comfortable, help it grow. Persecution (perceived or real) is a great rallying call to extremism. My notion is that many people preach that the current military occupations in Iraq and Afghanistan represent a de facto war against Islam. My notion is that the reality of angry white Westerners railing against the Koran makes the pill of religious persecution easier to swallow.
Your hate is a cancer.
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
Wait, What?
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 4:56pm.People are entitled to their views. Sure, just as I am entitled to mine. But it doesn't stop there with people like you or Gug or Mr. Whitlock, does it. Not at all, it is about hate, it is about some IDEA being cancerous. It is about being morally neutral at all costs. Perhaps you should study Paul in the New Testament. Evil exists and always has, Christ himself was tested by evil incarnate.
There is clap trap complaints that I and other make generalizations, and indicting a 'doctrine'
unfairly, yet I can site example after example of what is going on that supports the claim and then I am just trying to make it easier to swallow. Never mind what is actually happening in the world, the Netherlands, and the Fatwa's on people who dissent from what Islam believes. Perhaps we could look at the death threats on Wilders or Rushdie. How about those who celebrated 9/11 and the liberals who were wringing their hands and gnashing their teeth at all the flags that went up in the aftermath. I don't buy that there is a religious persecution going on. I think people are seeing what is going on in the name of Islam, and call for it to be stopped, just as people called for a stop to the spread of anther fascism in the 1930's and 1940's. People didn't want to persecute the German people or the Italian people they wanted a stop to the evil going on in their name.
As for your notion that we are waging a war with the very assistance of Muslims who don't want
mullah's and warlords imposing Islamo-fascism sinks your idea that their is a defacto war on Islam, doesn't it?
C .
Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
Germans and Italians are white.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 5:51pm.I'm going to sh*t for this but...
Submitted by Laurian on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 8:41pm.The difference between Italians and Germans is not their race but the actions of their nations. Only Japan preemptively attacked the US and wiped out 3/4 of the US fleet. Only Japan shelled the west coast including Washington State. Only Japan sank merchant shipping off the coasts of Washington, Oregon, and northern California. Only Japan occupied US territory, two Aleutian islands. Only Japan bombed the mainland and only Japan killed US 5 civilian non-combatants in southern Oregon a month after the war was over. It turns out that the allegations of spying by non-citizen Japanese were well founded.
In the first three month of WWII the US was far from thehyper militaristic cold warrior nation we all have grown up with. In the spring and summer of 1942 Coastal defense was negligible. What there was of it consisted mostly of appropriated civilian yatchs pressed into picket duty. If not for the consciuos self-sacrifice of many Navy aviators at Midway and other battles the war in the Pacific would have gone on much longer and might have cost untold lives of non-combatant civilian lives on the Pacific coast.
America's war was in the Pacific against Japan. The numbers of troops and material prove this out as well as the horrific and racist fervor this country pursued the war.The preceding is not a defense of the internment of any Americans for their race. The economic violence against the Nisei, and by this I mean the confiscation of land and property, were committed by state and not the federal government. Snow Falling on Cedars captures the dynamics of local greed quite well.
In the end what I am trying to say is when viewed with 70 years of hindsight, the internment of American citizens of Japanese descent has a very different gravitas than in the spring and summer of 1942. The equating the violation of American citizens civil rights to the horrors this nation is committing on non-citizens in Guantanamo is a specious argument.
Yup
Submitted by security_six on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 9:01pm.Some relatives of mine in California during WWII rented a japanese farm from the government as the family who owned it was interred. They found a hidden room with radio equipment in it....
You did neglect to mention the sinking of US cargo off the east coast by German U-boats.
Most of the coastal security was as you pointed out comandeered yachts. When I lived on Whidbey Island I met a man who's father used to walk a patrol around Deception Pass with his rifle. Lot's of private citizens volunteered their time and arms during this period. One reason the Aluetians were retaken were through the efforts of local citizens formed up into units who knew the lay of the land and were skilled outdoorsmen. Modern day "scouts" if you will.
This was a difficult time in US History, and we didn't come out completely smelling like roses. We survived though. Unfortunately some of the actions taken in the name of survival haunt us to this day. Plus the Depression and WWII laid the foundation for the modern "big government" we still deal with to this day.
"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." The Dalai Lama (May 15, 2001, The Seattle Times)
wow
Submitted by enpen on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 6:13pm.Is silence about bad corporate behavior just silence? Of course not.
Misdirection and illogical. Whether or not a person is silent about any given matter is not proof of that person's opinion about that matter. If you continue to insist that then any continued insistence that you maintain bigoted beliefs will go without argument from me.
Perhaps you should study Paul in the New Testament. Evil exists and always has, Christ himself was tested by evil incarnate.
Perhaps you could answer my previous question: would you please show me where your Christ tells his followers that they should see themselves fit to judge what and who is good and evil in the world?
Never mind what is actually happening in the world, the Netherlands, and the Fatwa's on people who dissent from what Islam believes.
No, not never mind that. Don't use that as an excuse to condemn all who follow a religion, though. Or decide that your reading of a document that is not of your society and not of your culture equates to a broad understanding of that document. Or to not look within for a source of potentially exacerbating behaviors or ideas.
I don't buy that there is a religious persecution going on.
You're not the one it's being pitched to. You're not a moderate Muslim with family members who have been killed or raped as a process of the "War on Terror." Are people who preach that mistaken in their belief? I genuinely hope so. Are they able to point to instances that fit their world view? Absolutely. Finding a prominent outspoken "Christian" in the U.S.A. who supports the war is like shooting fish in a barrel.
As for your notion that we are waging a war with the very assistance of Muslims who don't want mullah's and warlords imposing Islamo-fascism sinks your idea that their is a defacto war on Islam, doesn't it?
How much about Middle East tribal history are you aware of? Such as war time allegiances and the like. And once again, it's not my idea that there is a war on Islam, that's something being used to convert people to the extremist cause.
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
This is what I'm talking about
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 6:09pm.The site you linked to, mockingly called TheReligionofPeace.com, has a banner that reads:
This is the ugly message you are spreading on Olyblog.
Would you like to discuss the KKK?
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Fri, 04/18/2008 - 2:03am."excusing and justification of terror and murder of innocents is not permissible"
Does the activity of the self avowed Christian KKK taint all of Christianity?
No need to read what Karen Armstrong writes,
Submitted by JT on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 6:32pm.read the Quran. If you read it, it becomes very clear it is much closer to being a book of hate and violence than a book of love and peace. I haven't read the Quran cover to cover yet, but I have skimmed much of it, and continue to work my way through it. It is a tough read, even more so than some of the Old Testament.
As for what the Bible says about what we should do as Christians with respect to our fellow man, it's pretty clear. Love your neighbor, period. But we need not be tolerant of our neighbor's sin. Clearly radical islam's behavior is sinful, immoral, illegal, and vile.
As for mohammad, he was a mean, nasty guy, and far more warrior than a man of peace like Jesus. Mohammad's writings are more what you would expect of a warrior than a man of the cloth. And how anyone would want or try to defend mohammad's creation is beyond me. And by making arguments against those that speak the truth about radical islam are in-fact defending them.
Are all Muslims bad, mean, nasty people? No, of course not. But the step from moderate muslim to a follower of radical islam is a baby step, as their holy book is a receipe for hate and violence.
"Forgiving or punishing the terrorists is left to God. But, fixing their appointment with God is our responsibility."
itchyhitch.blogspot.com
Again...
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 8:32pm.So
Submitted by security_six on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 8:38pm.By stating the Koran has passages and teachings regarding violence and treatment of infidels, which in turn can be taken to an extreme easily is biased?
"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." The Dalai Lama (May 15, 2001, The Seattle Times)
Wow this is a mean ol' thread.
Submitted by Norm on Thu, 04/17/2008 - 10:29pm.You say you read the Old Testament???
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Fri, 04/18/2008 - 2:01am."As for mohammad, he was a mean, nasty guy, and far more warrior than a man of peace like Jesus. Mohammad's writings are more what you would expect of a warrior than a man of the cloth. And how anyone would want or try to defend mohammad's creation is beyond me. And by making arguments against those that speak the truth about radical islam are in-fact defending them"
Did Mohammad get mad at the earthlings an kill off the planet?
I'm always amazed at man's concept of a god that has all these human characteristics - anger, jealously vengance.
Sorry, JT, Islam doesn't have the market cornered on hate
Oh Lord, grant me the strength
Submitted by Laurian on Fri, 04/18/2008 - 6:12am.Oh Lord, grant me the strength shread the pathetic reasoning of those who are Wrong on the Internet, the humility suffer idiots who will never see the light, and the wisdom to turn the computer off. Amen.
A short prayer from and Atheist. Weird huh?
Comparing the two books Larry,
Submitted by JT on Fri, 04/18/2008 - 7:47am.there is no comparison, the Quran is way worse. But don't take anybody's word for it, read the damn thing. Make your own direct comparison. The only way you will know what the Quran is about is by reading it. Eveybody that writes a book about Islam and the Quran has their own biases and puts their spin on it.
"Forgiving or punishing the terrorists is left to God. But, fixing their appointment with God is our responsibility."
itchyhitch.blogspot.com
Do you even know who wrote the Quran JT?
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 04/18/2008 - 8:48am.Well, since their are disagreements as to the origin of the
Submitted by JT on Fri, 04/18/2008 - 9:17am.Quran even amoungst Muslims, I guess no one really knows huh?
I'm satisfied it was a composition (or more accurately the imagination) of mohammad. Muslims believe it was delivered to mohammad from God through Gabriel. But the actual written text of the Quran wasn't captured until after mohammad's death. I don't recall when or by whom the the first text was delivered into written form.
But really I don't care who wrote it, it could have been Alfred E. Newman as far as I care. What concerns me is so many people are embracing it, believing it and killing because of it. And we have sections of this country defending it, and in the same breath condemning many of their fellow infidels for "talking badly" about it.
"Forgiving or punishing the terrorists is left to God. But, fixing their appointment with God is our responsibility."
itchyhitch.blogspot.com
Like was said above,
Submitted by JT on Fri, 04/18/2008 - 9:21am.we aren't going to change each others minds. All I suggest is people read the Quran themselves. Bt hv ll yr gns t f th hs, bcs t s sch tgh rd t tms y my b nclnd t pt gn n yr mth nd ynk th trggr.
p>"Forgiving or punishing the terrorists is left to God. But, fixing their appointment with God is our responsibility."
itchyhitch.blogspot.com
This thread is done.
Submitted by Rick on Fri, 04/18/2008 - 9:25am.> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract