Pictures from Friday's action

Comments

Conversation????

All of the postings look like a conversation to me.  Different viewpoints are represented, and people seem to feel free to express them on OlyBlog.  Is there anything in the OlyBlog guidelines that says only a single viewpoint is welcome?

I agree with much of what security_six is saying.  Using children as shields, spitting on police and troops, throwing garbage in the streets ... none of those types of actions inspire trust or help change opinions.  Just the opposite.

Nothing productive will come of this protest.  The war isn't going to end because of it.  The crowd will eventually disburse or be disbursed.  The shipments will get through.  And the Port and OPD will have ended up wasting a bunch of money on police overtime that could have been spent on something else.

In The 3rd Picture

there is a young boy in brown with a red bandana eating something out of a red cup.  He is clearly school aged and does not belong sitting in front of a moving semi in hopes of preventing it from reaching it's destination.  He is clearly being put in danger by an adult who should know better.

In the pictures Rob posted, this boy & another small boy are shown positioned in front of the semi.  A new baby is being laying across the lap of a woman sitting in the ground in another.

These are not the actions of a parent who values their children's lives or is attempting to teach them values.  These parents are endangering their children's lives.  A sane person would tell these children they belong in school even if these children begged them to go protest.  They would also prevent these small children from sitting in front of a semi.  A sane mother of a baby or small child who can't speak would be a responsible parent by getting a babysitter or staying home with their baby instead of sitting in front of a moving semi with it in their lap.

I can't & won't condone the actions of these parents.

 

 

"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown

Assumptions

So many assumptions, so few questions. It looks to me like the semi is stationary, and therefore not dangerous to anyone. Please think for a moment before making accusations and threatening to call cps.


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow

Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt

The first question...

...I would ask is: "Is that truck moving?" Because, as you note, it is a still picture, it is impossible to tell. Now, we can talk about what makes sense. I, as someone who works with families and children, haven't encountered many parents who would put their child in harms way. So, it seems unlikely that that is what was happening in the picture. What do you think?


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow

Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt

So, I'll Ask a Question

What caused the truck to stop?  And don't tell me the brakes.  Was the exact spot in the picture the final destination of the truck?  What was the final destination?  Was the final destination obstructed?  What was the obstruction?

Why can't I post. I love

Why can't I post. I love Dennis Kucinich, does that qualify?

Kids at protest

Too bad folks resorted to hiding behind their kids.  That tactic won't do a thing to convince people that the action is a just one.  For me, I'm appalled.  I don't care if the truck is stationery, has been sitting there for hours, or was moving.  Putting even one child front and center at a protest is irresponsible.  I hope CPS is on scene today to remove children from such irresponsible parents.

Using kids as a shield, dumping garbage and litter on the site, spitting -- is this really the Olympia way?  I'm ashamed.  Since I'm not working this weekend, I had intended to head downtown and add my voice to those calling for an end to the war.  No way will I go now and condone this sort of irresponsible, embarrasing behavior.

Shall we stop taking out children to baseball games

becasue foul balls are dangerous? How about we measure our concern for children by the real level of danger and not the politics behind the activity.

Come on

Like I said yesterday, just admit what they did was wrong and lets move on to something else. I think the parents being defended is on politics alone as well. They were simply wrong, no matter what arguement brought forth, such as the baseball game arguement changes that. Reasonable expectations of safety can be expected at a sporting event. Those parents absolutely knew what was going to happen downtown and knowingly put politics ahead of the child. We would be all over someone who disagreeed with us politically if they did that with children of there own. You know on second thought....If the parents at a ball game walked onto the field, held a toddler up at eye level in front of the batter during a pitch, then yes, that is pretty dangerous, I would be angry as well.

ummmmm

maybe taking your kids to a protest that turned ugly the night before and knowingly sitting in front of a running semi truck as you try and block the road. Maybe taking your kids to a place where the chance of pepper spray and batons is very high. Maybe it is only a few bad apples, but again taking your kid to the place where you are mixing with the bad apples is a little dangerous. The picture actually says it all. It is pretty indefensible, that is why we should move on to something else instead of splitting hairs about it. Sometimes even us sanctimonious progressives are wrong, noone is perfect. The tactic of mixing kids into the fray is an old one anyway. At the activist "training' I took during school it was even suggested because it made a better picture, politics over all, even a little child who would rather be playing with a milk crate or munching a nice cookie in a warm home. Johnny! Get your shoes on! Time for mommy and daddy to endanger your safety by taking you somwhere where we know there will be clashes with police! If you are a good boy maybe we will stop for ice cream on the way home, one scoop to eat the other scoop to sooth your swollen eyes, pepper spray stings you know.

well

I was, and that is why I feel so strongly about it. If you read all of the posts you can actually see the defense of the parents actually growing weaker. I bet you have an opinion about many things you have neither seen or been. Even if I wasn't there the photos say it all. I will qualify my statement though. I was not sitting in front of the truck, I was on the sidewalk, I am much to large a coward to sit in front of the truck.

suppose we can...

suppose we can...

I am always amazed at how

I am always amazed at how loosely people throw the CPS card.  There are many many choices that parents make every day that I personally think are dangerous and irresponsible but unless a child is being physically abused/neglected or whatnot I would never even think about CPS.   I keep seeing people spank their kids in stores because they are "acting up"... I think it's apalling and a lazy parenting choice.  Should I call CPS?  There are kids whose parents bring them McDonald's to school every day for lunch...I feel that it is dangerous to feed your kids that crap.  Should I call CPS?  There are choices that I make in parenting that I know  people disagree with (extended breastfeeding, cosleeping when they were babies, etc) and have the opinion that it's dangerous to the child.  Personally I wouldn't have a problem with taking my kids to a protest and I trust my judgement and instincts that I would get them out of there if I felt they were in danger.  Oh, and sometimes I let my older son play hookey from school and we do horrible things like go to the zoo or Northwest trek.  Sometimes we even just stay home and rest. 

Music is the mediator between the spiritual and the sensual life.  ~Ludwig van Beethoven

Music is the mediator between the spiritual and the sensual life. ~Ludwig van Beethoven

Just saying...if people who

Just saying...if people who haven't been at the Port themselves don't have the right to form an opinion and speak about this...then how come we get to talk about Iraq?

It's the same old story - Everywhere I go, I get slandered, Libeled, I hear words I never heard in the bible

Red meat is NOT bad for you. Now blue-green meat, THAT'S bad for you!
Tommy Smothers

Before everyone gets their panties in a wad

There was a woman posting yesterday in the Olympian about bringing her child down to "welcome the troops".

I believe I coined the phrase "neither side owns the franchise on being stupid"

The Anonymous ThurstonBlogger

I Never Mentioned CPS

but do acknowledge it was mentioned by posters on the comments section. 

Of course the truck looks stationary.  It's in a still picture.  But if you look at the shots Rob posted, the truck is in various positions, and it was stated by the protesters themselves the truck was moving forward as if trying to force them out of the way.

As a counselor, I can't believe you'd think placing a child in front of a truck, stationary or not, to prevent it from moving, would be OK. 

What other questions do you think need to be asked in order to draw a resonable & logical conclusion where these children are concerned? 

 

"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown

I think the children are

I think the children are better off left at home.

That's funny.

OK. You can post now.


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow

Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt

My, what big judgments you have, grandma!

Why don't you go down there and talk to some of the people. Watch how they behave with their children. Ask them about how they feel having their kids there during the conflict. Then, you can report back and tell us whether it seems dangerous or abusive.

Jumping to such big conclusions from a few pictures is what seems irresponsible to me.


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow

Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt

I don't see anything as dangerous as

"If the parents at a ball game walked onto the field, held a toddler up at eye level in front of the batter during a pitch, then yes, that is pretty dangerous" in these photos. The photos tell you very little about what is actually happening. So I don't no how you and others here can make any kind of determination about the level of danger.

"Maybe"

just about sums it all up now doesn't it? Unless you were there, you speculation is is not particularly valuable.

Sorry, we just disagree I guess

We can leave it at that I suppose.

The more you see, the more you know.

If everybody went to Iraq, we'd have a much different kind of debate about what's happening there.


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow

Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt

Shame On You!

;-)

XO!

"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown

HUGE DIFFERENCE

You are being lame Jim, if you are going to give a comparison, at least make it a good one. Protests are adrenaline amped, and the ones I've been to locally, or seen video's on, don't seem to end very well. Bringing a kid to one of these is STUPID. End of story.

Judgments

Rick - why the personal attack?  All I did was state my opinion and why.  I hope you're not trying to shut down the free expression of perspectives posted on olyblog via personal attacks and denegration.

How about speculation based

How about speculation based on the videos posted right here on OlyBlog? Or should the reporting here be taken with the same level of doubt as The Olympian?

It's the same old story - Everywhere I go, I get slandered, Libeled, I hear words I never heard in the bible

Red meat is NOT bad for you. Now blue-green meat, THAT'S bad for you!
Tommy Smothers

And You Know This For A Fact Because

you've been there & witnessed the atrocities yourself right Rick?  Or are you just taking the word of others to form your own opinion?

"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown

Norm, when was the last time I suggested your

comment was lame? I suggest you treat me the same way. I was just down at the port was some real action going on. Not ONE child was in sight. I think it's because parents are good judges of the risks they are taking. Not a single child was there! Go figure.

Just stating our opinions?

Is that why we're doing this? I thought it was so that we could learn something about our community through conversation. But it's hard to have a conversation with someone who's already made up their mind about everything. I'm just asking people to approach the issue with a little more openness, and not just opinions, judgments, or assumptions. That might mean doing some investigation, like going down and having a talk with these folks.


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow

Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt

I think you are missing his point..

That experience firsthand is usually more reliable than assumptions.

I think Rick is saying he knows there's often more truth to a situation than what you are told or heard.

Jim

The last time (before today) that I was down there, there was a handful of kids as the crowd got gassed. Instead of moving their children people screamed "Oh my God there's kids out here!". Parents are not always a good judge of the risks that they are taking. Kids should not be at protests, and comparing a protest to a damned baseball game is LAME.

Openness, not stupidity

I do think that people should be more open about this, asking more questions and condemning less. That said, people have to start thinking and reflecting heavily on themselves. I'm sure that these parents, although I do not know them, love their children very much and may, for the most part, be great parents. They probably even have rather rational reasoning for bringing their children down their. However, it appears that they did not think about the possible dangers that a lot of folks have posted here. And I don't believe that everyone is necessarily assuming things; there are facts to go on. Example, there are children in front of eighteen-wheelers; there is someone at the wheel of said trucks, the trucks were moving until they were stopped by the protesters, there have even been reports of them inching slowly ahead. If this last statement is true (and I do say if because I do not know for sure) that means the truck is in gear. If it is in gear it is possible for the driver to slip causing the truck to lurch forward, unlikely, but possible all the same. Researching the history of past port actions would also reveal the potentiality of pepper spray, tear gas, and rubber bullets. These are all facts that can be divined without having to talk to the parents. So should the children be down there? Should the parents have thought more before bringing them down there? Are there people on the the left just as close minded and reactionary as those on the right? Did you answer unequivocally yes or no to any of these questions?

A child being part of a

A child being part of a protest, that can potentially turn bad (lots of adrenaline amped individuals there) is an irresponsible move. I stand behind my opinion.

Maybe you should go down...

...and see for yourself.


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow

Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt

Some of us

have been there, and done that. I'll stick with the videos on olyblog from now on. The chance of being arrested because the police think I'm with the local nutbars, or getting pepper-sprayed, are too high for me personally.

My God

There are little children there being coerced into standing in front of trucks and babies on mom's shoulders forced to be a party to this?  That's insane. 

"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown

Insane is a good word

incredibly irresponsible is better though. The last one I went to had everyone screaming, after being pepper sprayed, "We have children out here!!!". There are no guarantees that pepper spray, or other gases, will not be used at these, and anyone who brings their child to a protest needs some intervention from CPS.

Benefit of the doubt

For the life of me I can't imagine that a parent would put their kids in physical danger. If there was an immediate threat I'm sure that parent would get the kids out of there. I doubt the child was ordered or otherwise coerced into doing anything, I imagine if he didn't want to be then he wouldn't be there.

I went to one of those Tough Gloves amateur boxing matches in Tacoma once because a friend was entered and saw parents with kids of all ages there. That sort of glorification of violence is way worse in my opinion than bringing kids to a peace rally.

but that is another subject . . .

I think the difference would be that in a boxing match, they would be observing only and the "violence" is contained --- you pretty much know who's going to get beat up (the contestants) and who's not (the audience). And the kids belong to the latter group. Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to argue the merits or dismerits of boxing. I'm not saying that if and when I have kids, I'd take them to see a match. But there is an important distiction between that and taking kids to an event where by their presence, they are a participants.

My take is that it depends on the nature of the protest, level of action expected, and anticipated potential consequences - plus the purpose of having the child present, what alternatives are available (child care, etc.), and maybe some other factors. Bringing a kid to a relatively low key even where you're standing on the side-walk holding signs is one thing. Putting a kid in the middle of a direct action is another.

Frankly, the first time I watched the clip, I didn't even notice the kid. I hope that if the situation had escalated, the child would have been escorted to safety first thing.

One more point on the comparison to boxing matches --- something isn't good because soemthing else is worse.

You're right

I guess my main point is, as a parent, and someone who is politically and socially active in my community, I know that I will be bringing my son with me to protests throughout his childhood. I would never do anything to put him in any danger whatsoever, not in the least, not unless he was capable of taking care of himself and made the decision to stay (he would have to be much much older than his two years of age currently). I have faith that the parent with the children at the port considered it safe and would have protected her children before anything else.

Wow. I haven't checked the

Wow. I haven't checked the internet in a couple of days and I was floored when I went to The Olympian's page with a headline declaring "Protesters stop military transport, delay work."

I'm trying to bounce around from thread to thread and stay specific to each one, so I'll jump into this one.

Bringing your kid to a street rally?

In my opinion, the logic behind bringing your child to the Port of Olympia in order to physically stop a military movement is no different than our enemies who hide among the general population. Each is a guerilla tactic designed to neutralize law enforcement and military strength.

If you want to battle it out in the street, battle it out in the street. But don't bring people incapable of making that decision on their own to the frontline.

TFI, I expect better of you.

Comparing liberals to terrorists now? Has the military changed you that much?

Seriously, I don't think it's any of my business where someone takes their kids. If I see in person someone putting a child in danger, I'd say something. These pictures don't show anybody in danger. The truck is stopped in the one and the kids are beside the truck in the other, not in front. Those trucks don't turn sharp enough to be much danger to those kids. In the photo of the kid eating sitting in front of the truck, the driver of the truck is not even in the truck. I think he's one of the people standing and talking near the rear of the truck.

I just think we should give the parents the benefit of the doubt. Besides, knowing the protester types that I know, if people raise a stink about it, more people will bring their kids in defiance.

The Tactics

Just comparing the tactics being used.

At the Port of Olympia the tactic is on a smaller and far less violent level than in the Middle East, but it's a guerilla tactic nonetheless. The end result is to reduce and eliminate any advantage the better equipped, trained, professional force has.

In Olympia it's the police department. In the Middle East, the U.S. Armed Forces.

So, apologies for using an over-exaggerated comparison. I was just a little fired up after reading the article and watching the posted video on another thread.

I suppose it was the whole "I will never accept defeat"-part of the Soldier's Creed that got to me.

Apology accepted.

As well as your surrender.

As an analysis of tactics, I still think you're wrong. I think your analysis gives the protester undue credit. You assume the protesters purposefully brought the kids so that the police could not attack, I don't think it was that thought out.

 But don't bring people

 

But don't bring people incapable of making that decision on their own to the frontline.

 

I already mentioned I went to Christian School as a child, and I'm drawing a strange parallel between children down at the port and my early expierences with church.

I really didn't have a say in where my parents took me every Sunday, to participate and be indoctorinated into a belief system I don't agree with as an adult. But as a child my parents wanted to teach me about what was important to them. They had that right. And so the the parents down at the protests.

 

 

With that being said...

If they're shooting tear gas at the port right now as is being reported, I really hope those parents with kids are getting the children out of there.

Right...

But at least keep your kid on the sidewalk.

Just how much of the protesting experience do you want your kid to have?

And then when you're right in the mix and something does happen to Lil' Johnny, who's going to be responsible then?

Somehow I doubt the parents are going to want to shoulder the responsibility for the physical aspect of civil disobedience.

My money is on the kid and incident being used for propaganda.

Training or Endangering?

I don't see the primary concern here to be about parents teaching children their beliefs. Although, I must admit that JstplnOnry did raise a concern about safety training. Let's take a look at the comment you sight; the comment was directed to taking them "to the frontline," i.e. where there is danger. I may not agree with the protest, I may not choose to particiate in direct action. Others here believe that the cause is important enough to justify such extreme measures. We all know, or should know, that taking such action involves risk. Young children simply are not capable of having sufficient understanding of the issues and appreciation of the dangers involved to make an informed, independant choice to risk themselves for the cause. If you want to sacrfice youself, that's your choice. Your kid shouldn't be on "the frontline" till they have reached the maturity (exact age may vary) to have a personal belief and understanding of the cause (whatever that may be in a given situation), care deeply about it, and voluntarily choose and desire to put themselves in danger in order to further it. Furthermore, if the parents put their kids in the way BECAUSE they hoped the truck would be more likely to stop --- that is not an appropriate tactic either. I say "if" and I mean "if." There's not enough info here, at this point, to even guess at motive. Maybe she couldn't find a baby-sitter. Maybe she just likes taking her kids around with her (generally, not a bad thing). I'll say that, to me, the pictures have the appearance of children being brought into a situation where children shouldn't be brought. Maybe there are mitigating circumstances not evident from the mere still photos. And sorry, Rick, going down there myself is not an option as I'm up in Seattle --- And I'm not really sure I want to be the middle of a mess myself anyway. Is it possible to go to these things and observe without "safely", or if you're there are you pretty much in the middle of it? I don't have much experience with protests . . . Do keep us updated on what's going on down there. Thanks!

It's pretty safe and easy...

...to go check it out. AND, it's important that the wider community witnesses what is happening. The more perspectives that we have about the events, the better we all understand them.


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow

Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt

Silliness

Does anyone think it is still a "peace" demonstration if the law is being broken? Could the parents be charged with "contributing to the delinquency of a minor"? They after all were teaching a minor to block public right of ways, besides the fact that sitting in front of an 18 wheeler is kind of dangerous.

Yes

I think "laws" have been broken at "peace" demonstrations since "peace" demonstrations started.

I don't think that law applies in this situation.

According to some people, downtown Olympia is dangerous, should I be charged with endangerment because my son and I walk around downtown together?

I see the family beside the truck not in front of it in the picture, obviously I can't tell from a photo what happened before or after but it looks like the truck is stopped at this point and the kids are safe.

Since You Mentioned It...

For the record, I am not Carol or anybody else calling for CPS to go to the Port!

Obviously we can't tell from the picture what happened before or after it was shot but... The child is close enough to the truck and protesters to be in harms way. If the truck driver were to take a hard left to get around the protesters, possibly not seeing the child, his life is endangered. Or knocking the baby from the mothers shoulders, endangers the child.

Both children are witnessing adults putting themselves in harms way. We teach our children to stay out of moving vehicles. What message is this mother sending her child by taking him down near the moving vechicle. (Either the Olympian or one poster here said the truck was moving very slowly)

Either way, since the ship has arrived, there have been issues arising at the port where children shouldn't be. Surely, this mother in the photos above was aware of the dangers of taking children down there prior to even taking them. She knowingly led her children near the path of a moving vehicle that had people trying to stop it with their bodies (imagine how a child would react to seeing a body rolled over and the consequent aftermath of that body being viewed by a child). If she couldn't get a sitter, she should have stayed home.

"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown

I think you're making a

I think you're making a number of assumptions here that neither of us can prove either way.

I DO think the parent in the photo assessed the dangers before allowing their children that close to the action. Being old hat at protests, I can say with some confidence that I've never seen children that young put in grave danger, and that the rest of the crowd would be pressuring the parent to get the kids out of there if things got hairy. I understand your concern as a parent and I do the same kind of worrying sometimes, but I think, in this case, the kids are alright.

No splitting hairs

If you and your child are walking down the middle of the road in traffic then yes. People have a reasonable expectation of safety when conducting themseves in a lawful manner, such as going downtown. The law was broken as far as blocking a public right of way is concerned, hence the arrests.

Why bother?

Guys, this stuff is going back to Fort Lewis, give it a rest. Play your guitars and endanger your children somewhere else. If you are going to stage a protest that at best will get marginalized as the actions of a bunch of incoherent wackjobs who strew garbage in streets hoping to block the military at least do it when the stuff is GOING to Iraq, not COMING BACK. Jeez, but then again that's why you all have liberal arts degrees from Evergreen, instead of something useful? Go run for office and buy cigarettes and bath salts with donor money or something else.

 

This is a non political tag line and cannot be linked up through a twisted thought process to an obscure company making specialty tools.  

Now...

...do you have something interesting to say?


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow

Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt

thank you security six

funny....I like humor

Yeah I do

The protest is the most illogical thing I have ever seen. Why protest the return of something? Why try and block stuff that you know is going to go through? Stand on the sidelines and protest, it is your right and even responsibility, but for the love of all that is unholy, at least TRY and act responsible. The general perception is that of losers, stoners, and other nutcases waving signs and trying to become the next Rachel Corie. Here is a hint, big heavy vehicles+soft human body = *Squish* Think of all the money wasted on police overtime? How could that have been used in Olympia instead? And yes, the war in Iraq is wrong and overpriced, but there are ways of making a good reasonable stand that gets people thinking, and ways that make you look like, well a bunch of stoned hippies waving guitars and children around.

 

This is a non political tag line and cannot be linked up through a twisted thought process to an obscure company making specialty tools.  

Hey People,

This is OlyBlog, not The Olympian comments. We talk TO one another here, not AT one another. And we really don't talk at people in news stories that we know aren't here. Pretend like you're in the same room with us. Now isn't weird that you're yelling at people in the newspaper that can't hear you, instead of talking to the people in the room with you?