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July

    Creative Commons License
 
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 3:11pm.

I snagged this from www.komotv.com

By Associated Press

TACOMA, Wash. (AP) - A federal judge says Washington pharmacists still don't have to sell the "morning-after pill" if they have moral objections.

It's another court victory for opponents of emergency contraception, sold as "Plan B." Some pharmacists and drug store owners refuse to sell the pills, because they say the super-dose of birth control is too close to abortion.
read the rest here
»

Those crazy kids that have

Those crazy kids that have trouble distinguishing between birth control and abortion got an injunction back in November, which gave all pharmacies in the state of Washington the temporary right not to stock or dispense Plan B until the trial in October 2008. Twelve women filed complaints with the Board of Pharmacy because they were unable to obtain Plan B at Ralph's in September and October of 2007, and the investigation into those complaints won't even begin until after the trial.

So, essentially, everything is on hold for months, and a woman's best bet if she needs Plan B is to fight her way past those kooks with the bloody fetus photos outside of Planned Parenthood. Sorry to call them kooks, but really, comparing the use of birth control to the bloody demise of a near-term fetus is just crazy. And blocking access to Planned Parenthood around the clock is not a good way to reduce abortions, since Planned Parenthood does a much brisker business in dispensing birth control than abortions. (Strangely enough, though, one of the picketers outside Planned Parenthood told me that birth control "causes" abortions. Kooky.)

Anyway, I don't know what the specifics of today's decision were, but I suspect it relates to the countersuit filed by a number of patients who were unable to obtain emergency contraception and other drugs as a result of a pharmacist making a "moral" judgment while on the job.

This world's crazy, give me the gun. -- P.J. Harvey

»

Thanks for update

Plan B is great to have available and Planned Parenthood rocks.
»

As a Unashamed Pro-Lifer I

As a Unashamed Pro-Lifer I think it's important to speak up and say you are absolutely correct. I even accept your usage of "kooks" as it relates to birth-control.

“I said it in Hebrew—I said it in Dutch—I said it in German and Greek: But I wholly forgot (and it vexes me much) That English is what you speak!”
The Hunting of the Snark

»

Thanks, Merwyn!

You know, I always think of you when I remind myself that there are plenty of people who are pro-life AND pro-birth control. Unfortunately, I have more contact with the extremists, and that definitely can skew my perspective at times.

This world's crazy, give me the gun. -- P.J. Harvey

»

Every sperm is sacred.

image
»

Perfect topic.

We just hit the emotional Trifecta on Olyblog...;-)

Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
»

No, no, no!

I, for one, have weekend plans and can't spend the next 48 hours arguing!

This world's crazy, give me the gun. -- P.J. Harvey

»

Regardless of what the manufacturer says

if the church says it's an abortion pill, it's an abortion pill.

One step backward for mankind.

»

Did the "church" say it was an abortion pill?

I still have to scratch my head at the calling of people who don't want babies slaughtered extremeists. I would think that trying to make a choice after a behavior is kind of strange, but saying that people who don't want children aborted is extreme just doesn't really make sense.

And "Planned Parenthood Rocks?" That is like saying the electric chair rocks. It just comes off as crass.

 

C. 

 

 

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

»

You know, you're "slaughtering" human skin cells...

...when you scratch your head.

This world's crazy, give me the gun. -- P.J. Harvey

»

Funny thing is they don't grow into children!

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

»

Speak for yourself...



Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
»

Do you...

think I would deign to speak for you?  

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

»

Oh Lordy

I'm just joshin' about the fecundity of my scalp skin cells.

Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
»

Every hair cell is sacred...

...especially on your head, G.

This world's crazy, give me the gun. -- P.J. Harvey

»

More scared than sacred

my dyslexia is systemic.

Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
»

Scared of what?

Loneliness? Or being brutally slaughtered by a heartless fingernail, another casualty of the hair cell holocaust?

This world's crazy, give me the gun. -- P.J. Harvey

»

Planned Parenthood does

Planned Parenthood does rock.  I have been able to go to them for many reasons and they have always been kind and helpful.  I personally would not have an abortion (if a rape was involved I would have to cross that bridge when I came to it) and I also believe that the "bunch of cells" is a life...an amazing event to be sure.  However, it's a choice that every woman has to make for herself.  To me, that is what pro-choice is.  And until you've been in those shoes of finding out that you are pregnant when you aren't prepared for it, whatever the reasons may be, then I just don't see how you can see the issue so black and white.  My heart goes out to these woman who find themselves in that situation because I remember it so well myself.  I thought that my world was going to completely crash around me and I wouldn't ever be able to pick up the pieces.  I was so SCARED.  I had to make my choice.  Some people thought it was the wrong choice at the time and some people agreed with me but none of that mattered.   What mattered was that I chose my path and had to walk it and it's a right that we should all have. 

Music is the mediator between the spiritual and the sensual life. ~Ludwig van Beethoven

»

I didn't realize you had experienced an unplanned pregnancy

Phoebe was unplanned, too. Fortunately, her father and I both wanted her, and we could afford to have her. Now that she's getting older, though, I am very worried about what the future holds for her and women of her generation. I am not sure they will have as many options as we've had.

This world's crazy, give me the gun. -- P.J. Harvey

»

Emotional as all that is...

Abortion is abortion it is not 'pro-choice'. Choosing not to become pregnant is a choice. Killing is killing and is abhorrant. Doctors can do all the things planned parenthood can do except abortion, in most cases. So what makes PP better? That they don't notify parents? That it is free? What?

 

C. 

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

»

I have to agree...

Using abortion as a birth control is insane.  "Oh but little 13 year old suzie got pregneant and she's too young to have a kid.  Let's abort the fetus instead."  Now little suzie learns that she can dodge responsibility for her actions.

I do believe in abortion for rape, or medical need (life of the mother is at stake) but because the rubber broke and you didn't take a pill quick enough, or you didn't use protection, or, insert unplanned pregnancy or choice here...

Now I get vilified for telling women to do with their bodies....

I'm sorry but I believe (and was taught this by my mother) that the unborn child is a life too.

However people are free to make whatever kind of choices they like.  That is the joys of freedom.  You are free to get knocked up and you are free to kill the kid.  Ultimately it is a question of conscience.  If your ethics say it is okay to kill an unborn child for socio/economic reasons, go for it  I just won't support it.

I had an interesting conversation with another Olyblogger through PMs where I basically stated this same position.  We discussed an abortion provider who was compelled to arm herself for personal protection.  I stated I could never support most abortions, but I could not support violence as a means to an ends against abortion providers.  In fact my personal ethics probably would demand I loan a gun to that person if she needed it.

I'm pro life, but I'm also pro freedom, and pro make your own choices.  But I still won't condone violence against those who provide abortions.  Fight them in the courts not with bombs...  But I digress.

Most abortions disgust me.   

 

The story so far: In the beginning, the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people mad and been widely regarded as a bad idea. -The Restaurant at the end of the Universe

»

When you don't have

When you don't have insurance and are low income they are a great help.  Yes, doctors can do the same things but not everyone has that option.  Now I am blessed to be able to go to whoever I want for care but that wasn't the case when I was younger.  You can believe that abortion is horrible ~ I do.  But you can't make that choice for another human being.  That's all I'm saying.  I would rather focus my energies on education and prevention.

Music is the mediator between the spiritual and the sensual life. ~Ludwig van Beethoven

»

Good points

N/T 

 

The story so far: In the beginning, the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people mad and been widely regarded as a bad idea. -The Restaurant at the end of the Universe

»

Yes, leave it to the girls to get emotional...

...about a little old thing like an unplanned pregnancy. I mean, it's not like following through with it means that the whole course of your life changes and you share your body with another human being for nine months. Oh, wait. Well, in any case, perhaps in the future we can follow your example by using rational, calm statements like "slaughtered babies" and "abortion is killing and killing is abhorrant [sic]." And I'm glad we agree that killing is abhorrent -- it's so nice to meet other anti-war vegetarians!
»

Planned Parenthood does more than abortions

Of course, one must be willing to look beyond the end of their nose.
»

He's not my Pope, I didn't

He's not my Pope, I didn't vote for him.

Not that John Paul II, who I miss and admired, would've said different. Oh well, can't win them all.

“I said it in Hebrew—I said it in Dutch—I said it in German and Greek: But I wholly forgot (and it vexes me much) That English is what you speak!”
The Hunting of the Snark

»

Apparently the state is counter-suing

It looks like the state is looking to restrict the scope of the injunction, but Judge Ronald Leighton, a Bush II appointee, by the way, isn't having it. More info here. If this does indeed go to the Supreme Court, it could be a loooooong time before anyone gets Plan B at Ralph's. 

This world's crazy, give me the gun. -- P.J. Harvey

»

Pro Choice

Also means carrying on your business as you see fit.  The market will determine if that is the correct course of action or not.  If Ralph's was the only freaking pharmacy in town, I would say they have a moral obligation to stock it.  They aren't so who cares.  They don't carry my favorite beer, or big bags of Reeses Pieces.  Wah.  So I buy those items somewhere else.

Let Stormans have their dignity and right to conduct their business as they please.   

 

The story so far: In the beginning, the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people mad and been widely regarded as a bad idea. -The Restaurant at the end of the Universe

»

Not all choices are okay

It's a cute little turn-around linguistic trick, but I think we all know that being "pro-choice" doesn't mean all choices are good. I don't believe, for instance, that business owners should be able to choose to discriminate on the basis of race, religion or sex. I don't believe pharmacists should be able to choose to violate state regulations. All kinds of choices are undesirable (as well as illegal): fraud, harassment, anonymous hate mail, vandalism, threatening people as they walk into Planned Parenthood, arson. I think we can all agree that unrestricted choice is an undesirable thing.
»

I don't believe state regulations

Should force a person to violate their beliefs.  Forcing Storman's to carry specific items violates their religious beliefs, even if you don't agree with them.  From the Washington State Constitution... (emphasis mine)  I will add that if Storman's had the only pharmacy in town, or if access to Plan B was so limited in this area as to severely restrict access to it, I would say they have a moral obligation to stock it.  Well there are plenty of other options in this area, so they should be left alone.  


SECTION 11 RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. Absolute freedom of conscience in all matters of religious sentiment, belief and worship, shall be guaranteed to every individual, and no one shall be molested or disturbed in person or property on account of religion; but the liberty of conscience hereby secured shall not be so construed as to excuse acts of licentiousness or justify practices inconsistent with the peace and safety of the state. No public money or property shall be appropriated for or applied to any religious worship, exercise or instruction, or the support of any religious establishment: PROVIDED, HOWEVER, That this article shall not be so construed as to forbid the employment by the state of a chaplain for such of the state custodial, correctional, and mental institutions, or by a county's or public hospital district's hospital, health care facility, or hospice, as in the discretion of the legislature may seem justified. No religious qualification shall be required for any public office or employment, nor shall any person be incompetent as a witness or juror, in consequence of his opinion on matters of religion, nor be questioned in any court of justice touching his religious belief to affect the weight of his testimony

 

"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown

 

»

When the state FORCES Storman to operate a pharmacy

AND dispense medication he find objectionable, then I'll agree with you. When last I checked, operating a pharmacy (and therefore agreeing to live by the requisites of that state-granted privilege) is completely voluntary.

Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
»

I have to disagree

I don't think the state can force you to surrender rights already existing in order to get a license to operate a pharmacy. 
Would you have any problems if they said that no pharmacies could employ homosexuals?  Of course not, but it's a state granted privilege, right?  So the state should be able to restrict business and dictate terms of operation however they see fit, regardless of that silly little piece of paper called the constitution, right?

 

"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown

 

»

You are surrendering no rights

If you do not have a pharmacy license, then you cannot dispense certain medications. You do not have that "right." So what right is "lost" when you become licensed?  Not one.

Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
»

Since when did contraception become abortion?

We learn new things everyday here in Olyblogland.  Now, a contraceptive that works the day after possible conception is "slaughtering children"

You've got to love the creative rhetoric if nothing else.

»

Someone tell the Conservatives

According to Barry Goldwater, known as the father of modern conservatism, abortion is a private matter between a doctor and his patient.  The government has no say in the matter, according to Goldwater.
»

Good News!


This article "Judge won't lift suspension on Plan B sale requirement" brings good news.  Judge Leighton has made the correct decision.   The Stormans have the right to their religious beliefs and principles. They have the right to choose not to sell specific products in their privately owned stores.   I certainly hope that they prevail in the final decision.   I’m proud of the Stormans as they stand up for their rights and challenge the state in court.

Jeff Brigham

America’s greatest chapter is still to be written, for the best is yet to come.
President Ronald Reagan
»

But they probably don't have a right

to operate a state-licensed pharmacy. The real trial will determine that. If they want to call themselves a "privately owned store" they need to get rid of the state-licensed anex called a pharmacy.

Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
»

Let me see if I understand...

Stormans religiously rejects only ONE KIND OF BIRTH CONTROL PILL.

Interesting religion.  No opposition to viagra, birth control pills (of other kinds), condums, alcohol, tobacco, on and on et al.

»

It's weird

 But they believe it cause an abortion, which their religion is against.  Quite frankly I don't care if they worship the Purple Monkey God.  If as a  private business they don't want to sell something I'll support that.

"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown

»

A licensed pharmacy is subject to regualtions

that do not constrain most other "private" businesses.

Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
»

A licensed gun shop is also

 subject to regulations that don't constrain most business as well.  I know one guy who refuses to stock a certain type of gun because he doesn't like it.  Should I demand the BATFE force him to stock it?

I know about the "representative array" of medicines.  Who is to say what that array is, and if a medicine is stocked elsewhere, why should another have to carry it.  I went to a pharmacy one time that didn't stock a certain drug due to economic demand.  They refered me elsewhere.  Didn't throw a hissy fit over it either.  

The Washington State constitution protects the right to practice your religion as you see fit.  Operating one out of many pharmacies in town shouldn't trump basic constitutional protections. 

"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown

»

Each license comes with a different set of restrictions

Your example is not relevant. And the questions you pose will be ansered in the courts and future changes in statute.

Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
»

Question for the pro-lifers

If Plan B is an "abortifacient," rather than a contraceptive, what about daily dose birth control pills? Are those acceptable, or also abortifacient? How about the IUD? What forms of birth control, if any, are morally acceptable to you posting pro-lifers?
»

My argument is not with

The nature of birth control or if Plan B causes an abortion.  My argument is for the right of Storman's to operate their business as they see fit.  Personally I don't think Plan B causes abortion.  But I support Storman's right not to sell it.   

 

"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown

 

»

Ah, the libertarian argument

Tell me, do you think pharmacies should be regulated at all? Or should the owner be able to make any decision he sees fit regarding his pharmacy?
»

Yes and no

A pharmacy if nothing else has a moral obligation to serve the community to the degree that it functions in the community.  Example, if there is only one pharmacy in town they should have to carry as broad a range of medication as needed.  If there are two, then if one carried Plan B the other shouldn't have to.  So forth and so on.  To the extent of regulating a business for safety reasons, ensuring proper dispensation of medications and trained pharmicists, yes regulate.  What they stock?  Nope.  Grocery stores are licensed through the state as well, and nobody tries to force them to stock things they don't want to.  Why bother with any other business?  The community's need for Plan B is already being met.  Acknowledge Storman's their right to operate a business as they see fit.

 

"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown

 

»

And the other argument is

And the other argument is what consitutes a market?  The board's own language uses the phrase "good faith" when describing what a pharmacy owner should carry.

There was a recent article in the Seattle Times discussing the availability of Plan B in Washington.  The following is from the above article:

"...A Pacific Medical Centers pharmacy on East Madison Street in Seattle was listed as not stocking the drug. But that's because its average patient age is 68, said the pharmacy director, Kim Johnson."

No market, no stock.  12 complaints is no market considering there's no validation of those complaints as of today.

»

The Pro-Lifers are split on

The Pro-Lifers are split on that issue. Some, myself included, see a difference between contraception and abortion. There are those, unfortunately, who don't (and that's where we tend to fight amongst ourselves.)

I'm curious to see the answers from those in that other camp, but please realize not every Pro-Lifer believes every sperm is sacred.

“I said it in Hebrew—I said it in Dutch—I said it in German and Greek: But I wholly forgot (and it vexes me much) That English is what you speak!”
The Hunting of the Snark

»

Wow, this thread got crazy

Quick question for everyone involved.

Do you feel all doctors (the applicable ones, gp's, ob/gyn's, etc.) should be required to perform abortions? Should they have the option to refer the patient elsewhere?

»

Six

Are you suggesting that the state's requirement that all private, state-licensed ambulances carry epinephrine is a violation of their rights? I mean, they had a “right” to not carry epinephrine before they got their license.br>
Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
»

That is invalid

Storman's has the right to practice their religion freely, their pharmacy does not provide on the spot life saving techniques.  I already told you that I felt if there were limited access to pharmacies in this area then Storman's would have the obligation to carry Plan B.

The other point I make is that one does not surrender rights already in existence merely because they seek to engage in business.  If Storman's thought operating their pharmacy on Sunday was a violation of their religion and they closed Ralphs and Bayview every Sunday would you demand they open up on Sunday?  Would you demand they give up their religious rights in order to keep the store open that day?

Quite frankly given as there are plenty of other options for Plan B in this area, why give a tinker's damn about one person?   

 

"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown

 

»

You seem entirely immune to the implications arising from

the fact that operating a licensed pharmacy is a choice. That places us at an impass, so let's just agree to let the courts decide.

Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
»

I guess

The constitution means nothing.  By your argument the state could require someone not do drive to certain churches upon issuance of a driver's license.  After all the driver's license is purely voluntary.  So let's put restrictions on it that violate a person's basic, fundemental human and constitutional rights.

Yes, let's let the courts decide. 

 

"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown

 

»

Your Reductio ad Absurdum is showing

...again.

Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
»

How?

You in fact were the one suggesting that a state license overrides constitutional protections. 

 

"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown

 

»

Fair question, Norm

Although in context to this thread, it would assume the position that Plan B IS an abortive, which according to the manufacturer it is not.

I'm inclined to not answer questions about abortion when the subject matter is Plan B.  My only post on this tread that had to do with abortion is to remind the....uh....conservative(s) that a true conservative would not suggest for government to get involved in private lives.  Otherwise, this is a thread about Plan B and not abortion.

»

It's my thread Larry

I started it to get the ball rolling in this arena. This thread has everything to do with abortion.

Science is great. If science is applied to many religions it will make those religions seem like a fairytale. We still have the freedom to practice a religion in this country. If a certain faith believes that Plan B is an abortion drug, I think they should have the right to deny dispensing it. Science tells us creationism is a load of crap....so let's just throw out the bible and outlaw parents teaching their children about Adam and Eve, what do you say Larry?

Want to answer my initial question now? You already said it was fair, give it a shot :)

»

Plan B is not abortion, Norm

Now, with that point made, I'm going to guess that doctor's  licensing isn't generic.  Some doctors do surgery, some don't.  Some perform certain procedures, others don't.  Therefore dispensing a pill and performing an invasive procedure isn't the same thing and to compare the two is an unfair comparison.

To the matter of religion - I find it absolutely intellectually dishonest to say "although the manufacturer of this product says it's birth control, we BELIEVE it's an abortive".  Could a religion say "although the manufacturer of alcohol says it's an intoxicant, we don't BELIEVE it is, therefore we don't honor liquor laws"?  What other beliefs can be cooked up?

You have leap-frogged a conversation about a contraceptive to abortion and then to the right to accept the Bible as a rational explanation of the origin of creation.  To address your question about creation would require I address a question in return.

If Adam and Eve had two sons - Cain and Able - and Cain killed Able - how was Cain to have taken a wife?  Biologically, this is known to be impossible.  Now people have the right to believe otherwise, but I don't think there is a recorded incident of such a thing in a medical book.  Someone would answer that Adam and Eve had other children, thus Cain had to have married his sister, which is known to have serious genetic reprocussions.  I realize my answer isn't nearly as romantic as biblical anecdotes, but it certainly follows science as we know it.

My favorite line about "belief" is that you can believe your ass is a hamburger, but by taking a bite of it, you'll know the truth.

»

One argument (not preaching

One argument (not preaching or necessarily believing, "just saying" is all) was that in those early days when we were more perfect there was nothing icky or genetically wrong with the brothers and sisters taking each other as spouses. But because of the Sin brought on by eating the apple we are now corrupt,and it's that corruption that gets tweaked with inbreeding. So, genetically it wasn't that bad, and then by the time the cross-generations started to decay the population was enough that you could find a distant-cousin spouse and stabilize the genes for awhile.

Getting away from the Bible, I read somewhere that many geneticists believe that we are all at least 50-generations related to each other. Meaning, at best you and your spouse are 47th Cousins. Even in our society's anti-incest norms few, if any, would get squeamish over that info. Now, imagine your child and their spouse turned out to be 35th Cousins. Still nothing to worry about, but now we're getting closer. Eventually what happens is somebody marries an 8th Cousin (how many of us actually knows who shares the same Great(times six)-Grandparent with us?) because many times people marry within their culture. You get unknowingly close enough and there's risk for things like Hemophilia, Tay-Sachs, etc.

“I said it in Hebrew—I said it in Dutch—I said it in German and Greek: But I wholly forgot (and it vexes me much) That English is what you speak!”
The Hunting of the Snark

»

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