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Submitted by wildleaf on Sat, 02/23/2008 - 5:36pm.
I have made a fair and clear case in my earlier posts that the Olympia police have violated procedures and had they not violated procedures then it probably would have ended peacefully. This means that we have a legitimate right to see them held accountable.
» The crowd was a mix of students and outsiders, but they were peacefully demonstrating on behalf of the black male in the back of the squad car. They just finished listening to politically engaging music that talked often of the struggles of black people. Some chanted, others blocked the cop car. Some people would go sit on the hill or talk to their buddies while others came and chanted for a while. The four cops originally there with our officer were chatting with the students. They didn't seem very threatened when I walked up to one of them and tried to talk to him, they had been there for an hour already. They stood there and rolled their eyes, ready to go home to their significant others. Finally they realized they weren't going to be able to get the students to let the cop car pass very easily. They would be waiting all night for the students to get bored and go home. They had every right to arrest everyone in front of the cop car, but they instead decided it wasn’t worth it. It was a simple fight, no-one was hurt bad, they could find the guy and prosecute later if they wanted. It was a good compromise, which would have eased tensions between students and police. I stood five feet away as the Evergreen policewoman told the crowd she was about to let him go after getting his information. Nothing thrown yet, the other cops were free to move around. It wasn't much of a circle, the front was blocked but the cops could go off to the side or back if they felt like it. I was on the hill when several minutes later the scene went crazy and pepper spray filled the air. It didn't make sense to me why that happened when the guy was being let go. It wasn't until I saw the video that I realized the OPD pushed in swinging first asking questions later, putting everyone there in danger and defensive mode. It was a bonehead move on their part and against procedures. Peter Bohmer can explain the merits of peaceful demonstration and civil disobedience. Why it needs explanation now is a mystery, since it is a normal and accepted form of political action. Many students in front of the cop car were prepared for the possibility of going to jail. Students here have plenty of experience with being arrested for such reasons. When the crowd was attacked and defended itself by throwing trash and eventual property destruction that was different. That is no longer peaceful civil disobedience, but it also doesn’t indicate lawful responsibility. It was defensive, and no evil mastermind emerged to lead the crowd. The overturned police car was a reflection back upon the police actions who started it and fueled by historic grudges and sociological, political, and economic factors that are causing massive problems all across our country and the world right now. If people ignore all the deep historical reasons that are incredibly important for comprehension of why the riot occurred, they do so at the peril of cheapening this discourse and sacrificing student rights and political reform. The video evidence and countless direct witnesses, myself included, can attest that this was not a riot until after the OPD broke common police procedures and attacked. Before it was Evergreeners peacefully demonstrating in a way that made me proud to be a student here. Afterwards it was a riot sparked by the OPD, which ended in damage to police stuff. Well... what did they expect? We aren’t the typical citizens that accept violent action against us in our own home with apathy. The students had the strength to make the police stop attacking them and leave, and that is what they did. The cops were armed, the students weren’t, and we are lucky that the cops didn’t decide to put bullets in our friends. I don't think there should be any scapegoats here. Les Purce has committed us to paying for the cop car, accepting total blame prematurely upon the students. Despite the sound of much of my posts, I would like to see accountability for actions. Unfortunately there is no mechanism to fairly prosecute rioters. Remember that every court case brought against our students will lead to tax money spent and extraordinary sentences. This is an example of a witch-hunt. The ones likely to be charged will be the easiest targets, the ones who have the book thrown at them will be the ones least able to pay for a good lawyer. The police who started it and enraged the crowd, will get no punishment. They can seek charges against me for being a small part of blocking the police car. I’ll face accountability for that. However, I can't let people go to jail for the rest of it. The only ones you could fairly charge for destructive forces in a riot are the ones who started the riot or fueled it onward. In this case it wasn’t students instigating the riot it was the OPD. They started it, they inflamed it, they did nothing to try and stop it, and then they fled leaving their stuff to face the aggression that they created. Whoops! |
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Where Do I Begin?
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Sat, 02/23/2008 - 8:49pm.I not only disagree, I'd like proof. I think you're making an unfound accusation.
The videos I've seen make it clear the mix of students & outsiders were clearly not "peacefully" demonstrating unless you think preventing a police officer from doing their job, blocking their car, throwing things at them and damaging government property is an act of peaceful demonstration. You're way off base on this statement.
I don't know what video you saw, the but the videos I saw show the police clearly doing their job to protect themselves and a fellow officer who was trapped by rioting kids threatening her and preventing her from leaving with a person under arrest. The only bonehead move was on the part of the rioting crowd who were going against lawful procedures.
Not that I have any interest in anything Peter Bohmer has to say but I think the only thing he should be explaining is why he deserves to keep his job at TESC.
What a sad statement and even sadder to sound so proud of going to jail.
Again, the crowd was not attacked, it was doing the attacking. Had the crowd let the officer do her job, none of this would be an issue, the TCSO wouldn't have needed to be dispatched to help a fellow officer do her job or needed to pull out batons or pepper spray. The crowds actions most certainly did indicate unlawful responsibility and disobedience. They were not being defensive, they were being abusive and acting irresponsibly and illegally. There was no need to overturn a police car which cost thousands of dollars to government property to make a point or exact revenge on past delusional grudges. The police aren't causing the problems, lawless rebels like those participating, encouraging and condoning the actions of the TESC rioters are causing the problems and blaming police for taking legal & necessary action to protect those who truly need it.
The video evidence most definitely shows this was in fact a riot prior to the TCSO did their job. Again, the video does not show police officers attacking anybody. Unfortunately for those of you who defend the actions of the rioters and slander the officers, you'll find few who agree with your viewpoints. I find it sad you're proud to be a part of such a community of lawless individuals. To end a demonstration with destruction of property, government property at that, is not what the police expected nor the law abiding citizens of this community who's tax dollars paid for that government equipment. How would you feel if the local citizens came to TESC & destroyed it's property? You'd be angry at them as much as they are at TESC right now. Instead of saying it was all justified and the police deserved it and should have expected it, you should be trying to figure out how to make peace with a community who's angry. Your postings only add fuel to an angry fire.
Like it or not, you're still citizens of this community who are expected to abide by the laws and social skills we all do. TESC is not a private entity who is immune to having to follow the laws of the state and federal government. Come back to reality. The only reason the police had to leave is because the students were so out of control and throwing things and destroying & stealing the polices property they left for their safety. You all didn't pull off some magic feat where you won. Again, you're slanding innocent individuals by saying they attacked you. You all attacked a police officer doing their job and deserved what you got from the police when they responded to protect a fellow officer.
There's no proof that none of the students weren't armed. Of course police are armed. They don't say, "hey, we've got to go babysit a bunch of TESC kids again, we need to take off our guns"... And you're right, you are lucky they didn't decide to put bullets in your friends. Rubber or otherwise.
That's the first step that should be taken. You all deserve a hike in tuition to pay for it instead of it coming out of state funding as well. His next step should be to fire Bohmer and expell students who participated in the riots and jeopardized the lives of officers and others. The last step Purce should take is to work on community relations. If you read all the message boards about this latest TESC incident, TESC alum are mortified by what TESC has become and the people who live in this community are outraged and want state funding pulled at the least, TESC shut down at the most.
Gee, you sure could of fooled me. By the tone of your post, the only accountability you'd like to see is police accountability because you certainly have made it clear none of the students did anything wrong in your opinion. The community disagrees with you and so do TESC alum.
Yes there is, it's called the Justice System and it's designed for people like you & your fellow rioters as well as all the other criminals running rampant.
These are tax dollars I'm willing to spend. You see it as extraordinary sentences, others see it as justified sentences and not an example of a witch-hunt.
Oh please. Mommy & daddy will pay whatever to keep their TESC kid out of trouble. And those of you who don't have rich parents have a legal right to a free attorney. I dare you to tell that hard working attorney who's being paid little to nothing to defend you that he isn't or can't do a good job. I know plenty of attorney's who work their asses off defending the rights of those who are clearly guilty and have the gall to say their attorney isn't doing enough.
Why should they be punished? They didn't start anything, they didn't do anything wrong and the crowd was enraged because the police did their jobs & did it to the best of their ability, especially when a whole lot more could have and maybe should have been done by the police to prevent the destruction & theft of their government property.
IMHO, you're so off base with this final statement that it borders on being totally delusional. I find your attitude and lack of remorse and your ease of slander and lies in blaming the police for everything disgusting.
Ending your rant with "Whoops" is not only a slap in the face to the citizens of this community but to the officers as well and shows a total disregard for the TESC students & staff who not only disagree with you & your actions but don't condone your behavior as well. It also speaks volumes to me about your character, or lack thereof. The only thing this post from you is doing is perpetuating the picture most everyone has of TESC as an institution of lawless nutscases.
You get what you give. If you don't give respect, you'll never get it...
"A point of view is only a view from a point..." ~ Unknown
JstPlnOnry; I was starting
Submitted by Jeff Brigham on Sat, 02/23/2008 - 9:41pm.JstPlnOnry;
I was starting a comment on wildleaf's post when I read yours and you have already said all that I was going to say.
Wildleaf;
I encourage you to try conversing with more people outside the Olympia-Evergreen leftist community. If you do, I believe that you will find that your views are very much in the minority and that the vast majority of the average citizens in our community and state will be holding views similar to those expressed by JstPlnOnry.
Jeff Brigham
What procedures?
Submitted by security_six on Sat, 02/23/2008 - 9:21pm.Please cite per OPD manual.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
Everybody was talking about...
Submitted by Ehver Green on Sat, 02/23/2008 - 10:07pm.What part?
Submitted by Rick on Sat, 02/23/2008 - 10:16pm.At base, all wildleaf is saying is that the tactics the police used were inappropriate to the situation, which I think is true.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
No he said they violated procedure...
Submitted by security_six on Sat, 02/23/2008 - 10:19pm.And he still won't cite which OPD procedures were violated.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
I can't point out all that
Submitted by Ehver Green on Sat, 02/23/2008 - 11:04pm.I can't point out all that is blatantly incorrect. You've seen the video Rick, no?
Sure.
Submitted by Rick on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 12:11am.I saw a rowdy crowd. It didn't seem to warrant that kind of intervention. And the result was to amplify anger in the crowd, pushing it over the edge.
What did you see?
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
I saw a crowd
Submitted by security_six on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 12:17am.That had already demonstrated that it was capable of destroying an emergency vehicle and to make an attack on law enforcement and society as a whole by extension.
To my mind, such a mob is dangerous and needs to be dispersed with all possible haste.
I think you and I see things from a widely different perspective. Once a mob, person or animal has shown itself to be dangerous, one deals with the threat at an appropriate level. In this case break up the mob and it looses it's power.
Intact it is still a threat. One stops threats as quickly as possible. Whenever possible give warning, but if a mob has already caused grievous harm bust in and take it out. Several officers were surrounded and may have been in danger. The mob had shown itself capable of snapping with little provocation, even "calming down" it was still a threat and wound up. Break it apart.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
Funny...
Submitted by Rick on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 12:25am....how you can see into the future, as the crowd had yet to do anything but chant. The techniques you recommend are clearly counter-indicated (as the LAPD experience demonstrates). From what I can tell, the behavior of those officers, if not explicitly against department policy, was sure close.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
The LAPD is not OPD
Submitted by security_six on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 12:31am.I cannot find their policies online, but what LAPD does may not work for OPD. Having spent two years in SoCal, I have a hard time accepting anything that comes out of Kalifornia. My bias though.
How about we just figure on not agreeing...
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
I think there's probably some common ground...
Submitted by Rick on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 12:37am....that we can agree on without concluding that the cops were "wrong," "at fault," or "responsible" for what happened. For example, do you think the officers could have made an order to disperse?
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Maybe...
Submitted by security_six on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 12:43am.Like I say I'm not an expert on this subject, but I view cops responding to a mob like self defense. If I feel I have the time/luxury of telling a bad guy "stop or I'll shoot" I will. If I don't feel the opportunity is there, I simply open up. The question of the law is "reasonable fear" or "reasonable belief"
One thing to keep in mind is that OPD was coming in as backup. There were already officers on the scene who could/should have issued a dispersal order. Given that officers were surrounded the OPD busted in, the OPD probably had no reason to issue a dispersal order.
Right now, unless something new comes up, I will say using force without warning to come to aid of other officers is acceptable in my book.
There is no obligation to warn off attackers or mobs. It is a nice touch but not required.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
But why would the LAPD...
Submitted by Rick on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 12:49am.specifically prohibit use of force before an order to disperse? Could it be that it causes more trouble than it resolves?
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Lawyers?
Submitted by security_six on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 12:56am.Dunno, no two situations are the same.
EDIT: Just watched the (edited) video and still think there was no need for an order to disperse. The crowd was not cooperative to the Police from the get go and was made every effort it seems to block the cops from doing their job. When surrounded by a mob there is not "disperse" there is defend yourself.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
Watch the video closely.
Submitted by wildleaf on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 11:59am.The cops could freely move about, the car was blocked from leaving but the cops weren't. They had been there patiently for an hour with the same number of officers. The students had committed civil disobedience at this point solely. I won't go into the long history of civil disobedience by both right wing and left wing activists. They gave no order to disperse that I could heard or noticed from the video. Quite to the contrary, they gave up the suspect after getting his information and were going to leave. The OPD seemed to not give any order to disperse either and the video shows the policeman run in and immediately hit a guy. The OPD certainly weren't in danger. The cops on the inside weren't in danger, until the OPD made them be in danger.
I swear, people have their views and you can put the truth up to them and press play and they still spout the same old rhetoric. Analyze the video.
Now I want to give props to the cops who were there first. They handled everything well. I have great respect for cops who do their jobs well and exhibit fairness and show their humanity and good judgement. The decisions made in heat of the moment really define good character and maturity in an individual cop. I think the OPD who came showed poor judgement and broke procedure that is in place for a reason to protect them and the public.
The Black Car Project http://autovoid.blogspot.com
Does this quote back me up?
Submitted by wildleaf on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 2:11pm.Here is a quote from a Thurston County Officer in the video, he was one of the four originally around the car.
"I'm working with you guys alright. I'll work with you guys. I'll tell you this, we are all gonna get out of here. I wasn't going to do anything so we're just trying to get these guys out of here," said the Thurston County officer.
"Look some of your people are pepper spraying the peaceful people," said the video camera person.
"I know. I'll be honest with you, somebody sprayed one of our officers,"
Sounds to me like he "wasn't going to do anything" and a little upset because one of his officers got sprayed because of the OPD.
The Black Car Project http://autovoid.blogspot.com
Ask him
Submitted by Norm on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 2:18pm.He's a good talker, and a nice guy. He was probably trying to be cool about it. He didn't seem mad about one of his deputies being sprayed, just matter of fact, and trying to create some common ground. Cops are sprayed once in awhile, it happens. He's trying to keep a calm demeanor, and maybe get a chuckle out of folks. It's his personality.
FYI Thurston county has deputies.
Watching the video in slow motion, yep, I'm write.
Submitted by wildleaf on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 2:25pm.I re-examined the video in slow motion to see when the first thing was thrown and when the officers got violent. The first thing got thrown after the police come in and start hitting the crowd, this is followed by few more things lobbed towards the cops. Then the cops pepper spray and lots of trash start being thrown.
I also examined the video before the OPD came in to see how rowdy they were. I saw one smallish young females jumping up in down clapping next to the car, I see about half a dozen holding peace signs towards the car, I see them clapping and chanting "let him go." I then looked at the crowds response after the first violent attack by the OPD. I think they chant "we want peace" and shake about half a dozen threatening peace signs at them. I don't see the crowd hit the cops shown anywhere in the video, and to my knowledge the media has not reported any cops saying they were hit.
Where did I go wrong on this analysis? I stand by this post and my last one.
The Black Car Project http://autovoid.blogspot.com
Norm you haven't got any thing to stand on.
Submitted by wildleaf on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 2:37pm.Deputies. So you are calling him a liar when he said he "wasn't going to do anything"? Your argument is weak, improve it or shut it. Don't berate me because I am accurate and you haven't any proof on your side. If you want to argue tell me where in the video the crowd shows itself as anything other than peaceful before the OPD arrive and I'll eat my shoe. Yeah, blocking the cop car, but there is a reason why they call it "civil" disobedience. If you are making some argument that civil disobedience should never be used I'll throw the history book at you because it is filled with references of good people changing the world through civil disobedience in ways that we all have benefitted from.
The Black Car Project http://autovoid.blogspot.com
lol nothing to stand on huh?
Submitted by Norm on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 2:51pm.Tell ya what, take this video, and your legal interpretation, to the prosecuting attorneys office and let them know that you'd like the deputies/officers to face charges. AFTER they laugh you out of their office, come back and let me know what I have left to stand on, ok?
Just because you, and a few other local "civil disobedience" superstars think this is out of line for the police, does not make it so. A year from now we'll see what happens, but I'm placing my money money on a bunch of social activists still crying over this incident and their lack of "justice".
He's not worth your time,
Submitted by Ehver Green on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 3:59pm.He's not worth your time, Norm. Let him run with it -- you know the malcontents will get sidetracked and accomplish nothing. For lack of trying, lack of support, and lack of evidence. The process in place for handling complaints won't produce instant gratification so lets see where they are in 3 months when TESC closes it's door on another year in turmoil.
And why isn't he worth your time? Because he's not approaching this in a way the *ENTIRE* community can rally around. Instead it has an us vs. them feel. As has been pointed out by Rick, Gug, and others in the past, it rarely gets us anywhere but more angry.
You are right
Submitted by Norm on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 4:34pm.Oh boy Norm still has nothing valuable to add
Submitted by wildleaf on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 3:29pm.Your running out of steam norm. You can't rebuke me as anything other than accurate so you start in with the "so what?" attitude. Well I'll tell you what, I have sent in a complaint and we'll see what the response is from that. If it is ignored and nothing changes at the OPD you shouldn't feel so happy because it just means more violence in the future. Civil disobedience isn't going away, and you should thank Evergreeners for that along with every social activist who has used it in the pursuit of American freedom and given you every right in this country you take for granted.
Furthermore, a citizen review board is being implemented at Evergreen, and there is tons of support for it in the community so it is only a matter of time before it passes in Oly. You should be happy when the OPD is held to higher standards of professionalism not angry. What could you possibly disagree with? Having better trained, more professional officers, and a less pissed off community is a good thing right?
If you've got anything real to say about my accurate analysis of the video then speak up because I've heard nothing so far.
The Black Car Project http://autovoid.blogspot.com
I'm Not Norm But
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 5:20pm.I've got something else to say about your inaccurate account...
For somebody who spews a lot of slander & rhetoric and tries to come across as not only superiorly intelligent as well as all knowing and almighty, you sure need to learn how to spell.
And as far as what you see in the video... You're always going to see it your way because you have your blinders on and are extremely biased and hateful where the police are concerned.
The only thing you've succeeded in doing is showing the community how unwilling you are to accept reality and see where you & your fellow felon student body members went wrong. It's just easier to slander innocent police officers doing their job. You won't ever take the focus off yourselves and put it on anybody else! Cop, citizen or otherwise. If you don't want to play by the rules and the laws, fine. But there are always going to be consequences to your illegal actions and no amount of slander or spinning will ever change your actions and how they're viewed by others.I think it's been made abundantly clear on this thread where the support lies and it certainly isn't with you, TESC or it's student body. It's clearly with our law enforcement officers who had to do an already difficult job under stressful and dangerous circumstances no thanks to all those who participated in breaking the laws & rioting. And to all the taxpayers who are stuck footing the bill for the government property that was damaged & stolen.
"A point of view is only a view from a point..." ~ Unknown
Good advice EG,
Submitted by JT on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 5:09pm.some of us hardheaded ones, like me and Normy need a reminder no and again. I wonder why wildleaf doesn't get the reminder that he/she should contribute to the conversation?
Norm, you have won this argument in the court of public opinion, and I believe you will win the argument when the investigation into the incident is complete as well.
Reading you and wildleaf go at it reminded me of the old days where Mike and I went at it over AGW, so I feel your pain brother.
No matter if the science is all phony, there are collateral environmental benefits. Climate change provides the greatest chance to bring about justice and equality in the world ever.Christine Stewart (the real basis for the AGW scare)
OK This has just turned to name calling now. Good Day.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 5:33pm.