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Submitted by earball on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 11:42am.
Spirituality is very important to me -- I'm an active church member and do a ton of interfaith work. I also am also a strong supporter of the first amendment prohibiting the government from supporting one religion over another. I read with interest the debates over Christmas displays in the state capitol building. But it wasn't until I walked through the building that I really saw how incongruous and out of place these displays are. The nativity scene is accompanied by a sign that reads: "This Nativity Holiday Display was provided and erected by private citizens of the State of Washington to commemorate the birth of Jesus Christ, which is celebrated by Christians around the world." Just to the left is a Jewish menorah, accompanied by an explanatory sign about Hanukkah. What's the benefit to the public of having these displays here? Is this balance? Hanukkah, as I understand it, is a relatively minor holiday on the Jewish calendar. Will the capitol be hosting more religious displays for the High Holy Days? For Diwali? For Ramadan? For that matter, what would the "private citizens" think about adding to their sign that Jesus is recognized as a prophet within Islam? I'd love to find out! I'd prefer to see a display at the public library, with rotating information about cultural and religious holidays from many traditions. The library is a natural place for being exposed to new ideas, and has the resources for those who want to learn more. Anyway, have a look for yourself: ![]()
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When they allow displays
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 12:12pm.Please give me a second grace. Please give me a second face. I've fallen far down, the first time around, now I just sit on the ground in your way.
Nick Drake
And what is the high holy day of
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 12:18pm.Groan
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 3:48pm.double groan
I'm glad SOMEONE
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 5:10pm.Christmas is a federal holiday...
Submitted by Tschida on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 12:20pm.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
Man, that baby Jesus is huge,
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 12:42pm.tsk tsk tsk
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 1:07pm.Please give me a second grace. Please give me a second face. I've fallen far down, the first time around, now I just sit on the ground in your way.
Nick Drake
"Emaculate" conception?
Submitted by jlw on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 2:55pm.Peace became pizza. -- Guglielmo
Oooooooops!
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 3:17pm.And you really don't want to know
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 3:19pm.A little internalized...
Submitted by jlw on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 5:15pm.Peace became pizza. -- Guglielmo
Damn,
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 5:19pm.No damn about it!
Submitted by jlw on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 5:28pm.Peace became pizza. -- Guglielmo
I know, I know...but
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 1:09pm.Couldn't some of these
Submitted by security_six on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 1:10pm.comments be taken as highly offensive by those of the Christian faith? Or is it okay to bash mainstream religions? I wonder if it would be viewed as acceptable if I made comments as offensive about Jews or Muslims?
That said, I believe any religious group wishing to put up a religious display should be able to do so.
I was born Catholic and go
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 1:13pm.Please give me a second grace. Please give me a second face. I've fallen far down, the first time around, now I just sit on the ground in your way.
Nick Drake
Rhetorical question
Submitted by security_six on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 1:16pm.Irreverence, but some could take offense. Just raising an point here.
As a Catholic myself
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 1:37pm.I do not see anything offense in my remarks. I am satirizing the cheesy display, not the religion.
Added: But if someone appeared honestly offended, I immagine I could change the tone of my satire.
My Mom wasn't all that
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 1:41pm.The first time we watched Life of Brian she laughed her head off at every single joke and gag, until the crowd found Brian's mother and chanted "Behold his Mother"
My mom stopped smiling and said "Oh, they shouldn't be doing that."
She thinks Every Sperm is Sacred is one of the funniest songs ever.
Please give me a second grace. Please give me a second face. I've fallen far down, the first time around, now I just sit on the ground in your way.
Nick Drake
My bad
Submitted by security_six on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 1:20pm.I apologize for any misunderstandings....
No worries from my end. It
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 1:34pm.EDIT: paragraph deleted; I had a brain-freeze and confused two separate posts.
Religion and History
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 3:53pm.Religion is an important part of the history of the United States and the World in general. I think displays of this kind are great tools for historical study. I wish that History of Religion was a required class for high school graduation, providing it was taught from the position of historical value and not religious dogma.
If more people knew the historical importance of religion and its impact on society, we'd all be better for it.
Now THIS is a Nativity display!!
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 4:10pm.Once upon a time it really
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 4:13pm.Please give me a second grace. Please give me a second face. I've fallen far down, the first time around, now I just sit on the ground in your way.
Nick Drake
Don't turn this into another
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 4:17pm.Huh? What? No, really, it
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 4:23pm.That's why they call it an island, see?
Is FLOD-Caiman going to become the new Godwin?
Please give me a second grace. Please give me a second face. I've fallen far down, the first time around, now I just sit on the ground in your way.
Nick Drake
my two cents
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 4:40pm.To answer the original questions:
There is no benefit to the public here that I can see. This, in my opinion is the majority exerting it's influence on politics. Want votes? Then you'll support this. It'll be balance when there is a Ramadan display, or (thanks Gug) spaghetti monster installation, or a king jub-jub from the bottom of the sea diorama included.
The other religions or belief systems will not be included because of their small numbers in comparison to bigger religions, or, there are simply not enough people to make a stink about it to make it happen. Majority rules.
Wow - leave you kids alone with an idea for a few minutes..
Submitted by earball on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 5:59pm.Rob - thanks for getting back to my original question. I agree that this is simply a majority imposition. And that the display Guglielmo linked to is much more impressive (just look at all those angels!). I fully support churches or private businesses providing space for lavish displays of whatever religion they want to promote. I don't understand why having such a display in the capitol building is at all in the public interest.
Oh, and I should have mentioned that like Muslims, Bahai's also consider Jesus a prophet (or, to use the Bahai term, a "manifestation of God". Let's get the private citizens who erected the nativity scene to include that in their informative sign.
And for the record, I'm fully in favor of respectful irreverence.
I agree
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 6:06pm.Distasteful and strange...
Submitted by Phil Owen on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 10:31pm.I mean, is there anything weirder than an in-your-face-baby-Jesus? A virgin Mary steppin' up and puttin' the smack-down?
The next thing you know, there'll be a red-white-and-blue flying from the manger, baby Jesus will be totin' a gun, and Mary will have her bling on.
The Canaanite's Call
Whose house? Jesus' house!
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 10:45pm.No! Stop! DON'T DO IT!
Submitted by Phil Owen on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 10:47pm.AAAAAAAHHHHH!
The Canaanite's Call
Last I checked...
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 12/13/2007 - 10:40am.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
My point is that commercialism and matterialism
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 12/13/2007 - 10:49am.So true, G
Submitted by jlw on Thu, 12/13/2007 - 11:01am.Peace became pizza. -- Guglielmo
When I Love the 80s was on
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 12/13/2007 - 11:15am.Yeah, yeah, I realize the Abysinnian Church is Christian, but it was still kinda funny.
Please give me a second grace. Please give me a second face. I've fallen far down, the first time around, now I just sit on the ground in your way.
Nick Drake
I understand that is your opinion...
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 12/13/2007 - 11:18am.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
I think we agree
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 12/13/2007 - 11:32am.It must be Wednesday
Submitted by DJW on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 6:18pm.Because I agree with Larry. (sarcasm Larry) Religious history should be taught in schools so that kids understand the original meaning and intent behind the beliefs. It seems as though the only thing some kids are learning today is that Jews are evil in the Middle East, radical Muslims are following the meaning of Islam and all Christians are GW Bush. I know, pretty generic generalizations.
I was fortunate enough to take a few theology classes when I was younger and I really enjoyed them. I think the displays are fine and I think they do serve a public service. If it stimulates some constructive debate then it's great. Have fun all and stay dry.
I always thought....
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 9:23pm.you were smarter on Wednesdays, Deej.....
Constitutional considerations
Submitted by darrow on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 7:20pm.LYNCH v. DONNELLY, 465 U.S. 668 (1984)
Each year, in cooperation with the downtown retail merchants' association, the city of Pawtucket, R.I., erected a Christmas display as part of its observance of the Christmas holiday season. The Pawtucket display included, among other things, a Santa Clause house, reindeer pulling Santa's sleigh, candy-striped poles, a Christmas tree, carolers, cutout figures representing such characters as a clown, an elephant, and a teddy bear, hundreds of colored lights, a large banner that reads "SEASONS GREETINGS," and a creche. All components of this display were owned by the city.
The narrow question for the court to decide was whether there was a secular purpose for Pawtucket's display of the creche.
The display was sponsored by the city to celebrate the Holiday and to depict the origins of that Holiday. The Court ruled that these were legitimate secular purposes.
Does this belief that Christ is a prophet in Islam
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Thu, 12/13/2007 - 3:08am.Does this belief that Christ is a prophet in Islam some how supposed to lend credence to Islam? What does it matter? C.
Have you considered that maybe it lends credence to Christianity?
Credence Among Creeds
Submitted by earball on Thu, 12/13/2007 - 9:01am.It doesn't lend Credibility to Christianity...
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 12/13/2007 - 10:42am.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
Careful about going that
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 12/13/2007 - 10:48am.Please give me a second grace. Please give me a second face. I've fallen far down, the first time around, now I just sit on the ground in your way.
Nick Drake
Thanks Merw
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Thu, 12/13/2007 - 1:03pm.you saved me time.
At the same time, Tschida's response was right on cue as I expected.
One of the core tennents of Christianity...
Submitted by Tschida on Fri, 12/14/2007 - 12:55pm.Is not murder and subjugation of non-believers. Islam can not make this distinction. Crimes have been committed in the name of Christianity, and these crimes have been in direct violation of Biblical teaching, both in the spirit of the teaching and the letter of the teaching. Christian's almost universally reject the KKK, and the nut job preacher who protests our soldiers at funerals. (Can't think of the lunatic's name). Christian's of every stripe reject this behavior. When a 'Christian' kills an abortion provider, one of the eight or nine of them, I and every other Christian reject this action. I don't know where in the New Testament it is permissible to murder. I don't know any Baptist, Lutheran, Catholic, Jew, Sikh, Hindu, Unitarian, Mormon, or anyone else who excuses this.
C.
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
Actually...
Submitted by Phil Owen on Fri, 12/14/2007 - 4:37pm.I think if you spent the time to learn a little more about Islam, and get to know some Muslims and their theological views, you would find that your comments are as true about Islam as they are about Christianity.
The exception, and this exception is unfortunately true of most Christians as well, is that most Muslims don't view killing on the battlefield as murder. Their views on "just war" are nearly as restrictive as the mainstream Christian views, though.
The Canaanite's Call
Very insightful...
Submitted by Tschida on Mon, 12/17/2007 - 11:37am.First you offer this tid bit... "I think if you spent the time to learn a little more about Islam, and get to know some Muslims and their theological views, you would find that your comments are as true about Islam as they are about Christianity." I missed the part in the Holy Bible where it states that infidels should be subjugated or killed in their 'just war'. Further still offering insight to your thinking... is this nugget, "Their views on "just war" are nearly as restrictive as the mainstream Christian views, though." I would be to differ. I would like to point out again that crimes are committed 'in the name of Christianity' and then are almost universally denounced as sinful in nature, and abhorrent to the teachings of God through the Bible. Sadly Islam can not say the same. They are clearly, unequivocally not the same or morally relative. C.
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas SowellYeah......
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Thu, 12/13/2007 - 3:11am.What is up with the "red, white and blue" garments of Mary and Joseph? Desert people would wear neutral, light colors to reflect the sun's heat.
It appears that someone is trying to make a point beyond just a Christmas celebration.
So true!
Submitted by jlw on Thu, 12/13/2007 - 10:11am.Peace became pizza. -- Guglielmo
well,
Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 12/13/2007 - 11:59am.Yes,
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 12/13/2007 - 12:08pm.Actually, Rob
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Thu, 12/13/2007 - 1:00pm.Maybe I didn't do a good job of making my point clear, but it seems to me that the "Christian message" IS an attempt to co-mingle religion and politics (church and state) whereas the "Jewish message" is just symbolic of their holiday celebration.
As I said earlier in the thread, I love the idea of religious displays as a historical reminder of our culture. The more the better, I say. I don't see that any displays of cultural history are a violation of church and state issues.
Now....when someone tries to manipulate the display, that's another subject.
They should
Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 12/13/2007 - 3:38pm.Absolutely, Rob
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Thu, 12/13/2007 - 6:39pm.Paganism, secularism......
Knowledge is power
Do it dude
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 12/13/2007 - 7:12pm.Let's not
Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 12/13/2007 - 7:42pm.Hmmmm
Submitted by Norm on Thu, 12/13/2007 - 7:44pm.Lil squeamish Rob?
This is a molehill....
Submitted by Norm on Thu, 12/13/2007 - 6:25pm.