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Poster Calendar

July

    Creative Commons License
 
Submitted by earball on Wed, 12/12/2007 - 11:42am.

Spirituality is very important to me -- I'm an active church member and do a ton of interfaith work.

I also am also a strong supporter of the first amendment prohibiting the government from supporting one religion over another. I read with interest the debates over Christmas displays in the state capitol building. But it wasn't until I walked through the building that I really saw how incongruous and out of place these displays are.

The nativity scene is accompanied by a sign that reads: "This Nativity Holiday Display was provided and erected by private citizens of the State of Washington to commemorate the birth of Jesus Christ, which is celebrated by Christians around the world."

Just to the left is a Jewish menorah, accompanied by an explanatory sign about Hanukkah. What's the benefit to the public of having these displays here? Is this balance?

Hanukkah, as I understand it, is a relatively minor holiday on the Jewish calendar. Will the capitol be hosting more religious displays for the High Holy Days? For Diwali? For Ramadan? For that matter, what would the "private citizens" think about adding to their sign that Jesus is recognized as a prophet within Islam? I'd love to find out!

I'd prefer to see a display at the public library, with rotating information about cultural and religious holidays from many traditions. The library is a natural place for being exposed to new ideas, and has the resources for those who want to learn more.

Anyway, have a look for yourself:

nativity scene in state capitol building

menorah in state capitol building

»

When they allow displays

When they allow displays from other religious holidays I'll have less of a problem with it. But people need to step up and make it happen, you can't expect Christine to remember whenever Yom Kippur or Festivus is coming up.

Please give me a second grace. Please give me a second face. I've fallen far down, the first time around, now I just sit on the ground in your way.
Nick Drake

»

And what is the high holy day of

the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I think it's a few days pasta new years.
»

Groan

double groan

»

I'm glad SOMEONE

got it enough to groan!
»

Christmas is a federal holiday...

I am not sure how observing a federal holiday, with a simple nativity scene diorama thing is an endorsement of any kind. Is the Menorah, balance? Sure, because it is Chanukah, or it just passed I am not sure. It is timely, and appropriate to the season. Want to have some kind of Ramadan diorama? Go for it! These simple displays are not an endorsement of religion what so ever. Even if there were only a Nativity it would not be an endorsement. As for Islam holding Christ as a prophet, well, I don't care. That is one citizen’s opinion. Does this belief that Christ is a prophet in Islam some how supposed to lend credence to Islam? What does it matter? C.

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

»

Man, that baby Jesus is huge,

huge I tell ya! Mary must have said "super size me" during the emaculate conception. And I didn't know Jesus was born in a Lowe's bird feeder display case. I learn something new every day.
»

tsk tsk tsk

Mary is the Immaculate Conception. If you want to pass the test you'll need to hit the books a bit harder.

Please give me a second grace. Please give me a second face. I've fallen far down, the first time around, now I just sit on the ground in your way.
Nick Drake

»

"Emaculate" conception?

WHAT is going on in your subconscious?

Peace became pizza. -- Guglielmo

»

Oooooooops!

That's funny! Hey, I couldn't even read until the 4th grade. Let me catch up will ya?
»

And you really don't want to know

what's going on in my subconscious. God knows I don't.
»

A little internalized...

....man-hating, I think. It's the worst kind. At least that's what they say at the support group.

Peace became pizza. -- Guglielmo

»

Damn,

that sure puts me in one heck of a pickle.
»

No damn about it!

Pickles are a good thing! You can carve them into the most amazing decorative garnishes. Curls... roses... swans...

Peace became pizza. -- Guglielmo

»

I know, I know...but

"Annunciation" doesn't work as well. Shhhhhhhh. Most people won't notice.
»

Couldn't some of these

comments be taken as highly offensive by those of the Christian faith?  Or is it okay to bash mainstream religions?  I wonder if it would be viewed as acceptable if I made comments as offensive about Jews or Muslims? 

That said, I believe any religious group wishing to put up a religious display should be able to do so.

»

I was born Catholic and go

I was born Catholic and go to various Christian churches. I've seen some irreverence but nothing patently offensive.

Please give me a second grace. Please give me a second face. I've fallen far down, the first time around, now I just sit on the ground in your way.
Nick Drake

»

Rhetorical question

Irreverence, but some could take offense.  Just raising an point here. 

»

As a Catholic myself

I do not see anything offense in my remarks. I am satirizing the cheesy display, not the religion.

Added: But if someone appeared honestly offended, I immagine I could change the tone of my satire.

»

My Mom wasn't all that

My Mom wasn't all that strict about Catholic respect but she did have a limit.

The first time we watched Life of Brian she laughed her head off at every single joke and gag, until the crowd found Brian's mother and chanted "Behold his Mother"

My mom stopped smiling and said "Oh, they shouldn't be doing that."

She thinks Every Sperm is Sacred is one of the funniest songs ever.

Please give me a second grace. Please give me a second face. I've fallen far down, the first time around, now I just sit on the ground in your way.
Nick Drake

»

My bad

I apologize for any misunderstandings.... 

»

No worries from my end. It

No worries from my end. It was a legit question.

EDIT: paragraph deleted; I had a brain-freeze and confused two separate posts.

»

Religion and History

Religion is an important part of the history of the United States and the World in general.  I think displays of this kind are great tools for historical study.  I wish that History of Religion was a required class for high school graduation, providing it was taught from the position of historical value and not religious dogma.

If more people knew the historical importance of religion and its impact on society, we'd all be better for it.

»

Now THIS is a Nativity display!!

Christmas Island on Puget. Remember when it used to be in the Lacey Mall parking lot?  They lock up baby Jesus every night to protect him from Olympia anarchists and radical Papists.
»

Once upon a time it really

Once upon a time it really was an island out in the water.

Please give me a second grace. Please give me a second face. I've fallen far down, the first time around, now I just sit on the ground in your way.
Nick Drake

»

Don't turn this into another

FLOD-Caiman thread.
»

Huh? What? No, really, it

Huh? What? No, really, it was. My mom even said.

That's why they call it an island, see?

Is FLOD-Caiman going to become the new Godwin?

Please give me a second grace. Please give me a second face. I've fallen far down, the first time around, now I just sit on the ground in your way.
Nick Drake

»

my two cents

This is all a bit jaded by Mitt Romney's horrifying speech from last week, it left me feeling a bit isolated as an atheist (should I be saying that out loud?).

To answer the original questions:

There is no benefit to the public here that I can see. This, in my opinion is the majority exerting it's influence on politics. Want votes? Then you'll support this. It'll be balance when there is a Ramadan display, or (thanks Gug) spaghetti monster installation, or a king jub-jub from the bottom of the sea diorama included.

The other religions or belief systems will not be included because of their small numbers in comparison to bigger religions, or, there are simply not enough people to make a stink about it to make it happen. Majority rules.

»

Wow - leave you kids alone with an idea for a few minutes..

...and this is what happens. Yes, it's true that the nativity display used to be floating in Capitol Lake about this time of year. Kind of like the Lakefair golf-target island, only closer to shore and with fewer flying projectiles. I won't speculate on the role of caimans in driving it from that location to Lacey.

Rob - thanks for getting back to my original question. I agree that this is simply a majority imposition. And that the display Guglielmo linked to is much more impressive (just look at all those angels!). I fully support churches or private businesses providing space for lavish displays of whatever religion they want to promote. I don't understand why having such a display in the capitol building is at all in the public interest.

Oh, and I should have mentioned that like Muslims, Bahai's also consider Jesus a prophet (or, to use the Bahai term, a "manifestation of God". Let's get the private citizens who erected the nativity scene to include that in their informative sign.

And for the record, I'm fully in favor of respectful irreverence.

»

I agree

I'm not sure that the display in the Capitol building does anything but appease those who believe there is a war on Christmas. Well, there is, but the battle front is at the Mall, not the public square. There is also an "in your face" arrogance about it that I find somewhat distasteful.
»

Distasteful and strange...

I mean, is there anything weirder than an in-your-face-baby-Jesus?  A virgin Mary steppin' up and puttin' the smack-down?

The next thing you know, there'll be a red-white-and-blue flying from the manger, baby Jesus will be totin' a gun, and Mary will have her bling on. 

 

The Canaanite's Call

»

Whose house? Jesus' house!

»

No! Stop! DON'T DO IT!

 AAAAAAAHHHHH!

 

 The Canaanite's Call

»

Last I checked...

Religous expression, is not the same as secular shopping. I am not even sure how the two would be connected in the context of this discussion. I don't see the ACLU filing law suits to stop people from Christmas shopping. I do see them filing law suits to limit religious expression, against religions they don't approve of. But of course their is no war on Christmas, right? C.

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

»

My point is that commercialism and matterialism

are much greater threats to Christianity than the so-called war on Christmas. So "secular shopping" IS very much a part of this topic. Also, to be accurate, what you are discribing is not a "war" but individual civil actions.
»

So true, G

My daughter and I are both sick of Xmas already, and it has nothing to do with the religious side of it... it's all that cheesy Christmas music we're constantly subjected to, and the incessant advertising and sales pitches. Actually, although I am not a religious person myself, I have some appreciation for the spiritual imagery associated with Christmas -- I wish I could say the same about "Run Run Rudolph."

Peace became pizza. -- Guglielmo

»

When I Love the 80s was on

When I Love the 80s was on one of the guys, don't remember whether it was Ian Black or Mo Rocca or one of the other Has-Beens or Never-Weres, was talking about that song Do They Know it's Christmas (recorded for the starving Ethiopians for those of you too young to know) and said "Do they know it's Christmas? Of course they don't, they're Muslims!"

Yeah, yeah, I realize the Abysinnian Church is Christian, but it was still kinda funny.

Please give me a second grace. Please give me a second face. I've fallen far down, the first time around, now I just sit on the ground in your way.
Nick Drake

»

I understand that is your opinion...

about the war on Christmas. I would suggest that the efforts to remove any Christian vestiges from public space and often the knock on effect that has on the private sector, (happy holiday's as opposed to Merry Christmas) is a secular 'cold' war on Christmas and Christianity in general. Because people shop and buy gifts for family and friends constitutes materialism in your opinion does not specifically detract from the religious observance on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. I understand how it can interfere, but both the gift giving and recieving and the religious aspect can co exist, and for many families it does so with out problem. C.

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

»

I think we agree

but from different directions. I think it's "Happy Holidays" now because they need a more flexible name for the shopping season that stretches from Halloween through New Years. It's sad too that instead of celebrating the Nativity, we use this season to find reasons to be defensive about our faith and engage in these conflicts. It just seems more ego driven than faith affirming to me, but I'm more of a "pray in your closet" kind of guy.
»

It must be Wednesday

Because I agree with Larry.  (sarcasm Larry)  Religious history should be taught in schools so that kids understand the original meaning and intent behind the beliefs.  It seems as though the only thing some kids are learning today is that Jews are evil in the Middle East, radical Muslims are following the meaning of Islam and all Christians are GW Bush.  I know, pretty generic generalizations. 

I was fortunate enough to take a few theology classes when I was younger and I really enjoyed them.  I think the displays are fine and I think they do serve a public service.  If it stimulates some constructive debate then it's great.  Have fun all and stay dry.   

»

I always thought....

you were smarter on Wednesdays, Deej.....

»

Constitutional considerations

Although the explanations that accompany the nativity scene and menorah may seem strained and out of place, the seem to be well within the U.S. Supreme Court's interpretation of this exact situation:

LYNCH v. DONNELLY, 465 U.S. 668 (1984)

Each year, in cooperation with the downtown retail merchants' association, the city of Pawtucket, R.I., erected a Christmas display as part of its observance of the Christmas holiday season. The Pawtucket display included, among other things, a Santa Clause house, reindeer pulling Santa's sleigh, candy-striped poles, a Christmas tree, carolers, cutout figures representing such characters as a clown, an elephant, and a teddy bear, hundreds of colored lights, a large banner that reads "SEASONS GREETINGS," and a creche. All components of this display were owned by the city.

The narrow question for the court to decide was whether there was a secular purpose for Pawtucket's display of the creche.

The display was sponsored by the city to celebrate the Holiday and to depict the origins of that Holiday. The Court ruled that these were legitimate secular purposes.
»

Does this belief that Christ is a prophet in Islam

Does this belief that Christ is a prophet in Islam some how supposed to lend credence to Islam? What does it matter? C.

 Have you considered that maybe it lends credence to Christianity?

»

Credence Among Creeds

Yeah, Larry... as an interfaith-minded guy, I like it when ideas and principles overlap between faiths. My original inference, however, was that I don't think the erectors of the nativity would be open to adding to their display an inclusive sign mentioning that Jesus was also a prophet/key religious figure in other religions. Of course they also probably wouldn't mention that all the folks in that nativity scene are Jewish.
»

It doesn't lend Credibility to Christianity...

Islam is often violently opposed to any other religion. C.

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

»

Careful about going that

Careful about going that route, radicals in the name of Christianity do their share of bloodshed too. I can't imagine how frustrating it would be if the rest of the world though all Christians were the same as the KKK.

Please give me a second grace. Please give me a second face. I've fallen far down, the first time around, now I just sit on the ground in your way.
Nick Drake

»

Thanks Merw

you saved me time.

At the same time, Tschida's response was right on cue as I expected.

»

One of the core tennents of Christianity...

Is not murder and subjugation of non-believers. Islam can not make this distinction. Crimes have been committed in the name of Christianity, and these crimes have been in direct violation of Biblical teaching, both in the spirit of the teaching and the letter of the teaching. Christian's almost universally reject the KKK, and the nut job preacher who protests our soldiers at funerals. (Can't think of the lunatic's name). Christian's of every stripe reject this behavior. When a 'Christian' kills an abortion provider, one of the eight or nine of them, I and every other Christian reject this action. I don't know where in the New Testament it is permissible to murder. I don't know any Baptist, Lutheran, Catholic, Jew, Sikh, Hindu, Unitarian, Mormon, or anyone else who excuses this. 

 

C. 

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

»

Actually...

I think if you spent the time to learn a little more about Islam, and get to know some Muslims and their theological views, you would find that your comments are as true about Islam as they are about Christianity.

The exception, and this exception is unfortunately true of most Christians as well, is that most Muslims don't view killing on the battlefield as murder.  Their views on "just war" are nearly as restrictive as the mainstream Christian views, though. 

 

The Canaanite's Call

»

Very insightful...

First you offer this tid bit... "I think if you spent the time to learn a little more about Islam, and get to know some Muslims and their theological views, you would find that your comments are as true about Islam as they are about Christianity." I missed the part in the Holy Bible where it states that infidels should be subjugated or killed in their 'just war'. Further still offering insight to your thinking... is this nugget, "Their views on "just war" are nearly as restrictive as the mainstream Christian views, though." I would be to differ. I would like to point out again that crimes are committed 'in the name of Christianity' and then are almost universally denounced as sinful in nature, and abhorrent to the teachings of God through the Bible. Sadly Islam can not say the same. They are clearly, unequivocally not the same or morally relative. C.

 

 One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

 

Thomas Sowell

 

 

 

»

Yeah......

What is up with the "red, white and blue" garments of Mary and Joseph?  Desert people would wear neutral, light colors to reflect the sun's heat.

It appears that someone is trying to make a point beyond just a Christmas celebration.

»

So true!

Thanks for pointing that out, Larry. I hadn't noticed before, but they look like they're on their way to a July 4th barbecue!

Peace became pizza. -- Guglielmo

»

well,

I think the conversation here has veered away from the real issue and too far towards O'Rielly's talking points about Wars On Xmas. This thread is about the separation between church and state, which is written into the too often cherry-picked constitution, and doesn't really have anything to do with christmas. Remember there is a jewish display there too.
»

Yes,

O'Rielly and others frame this conflict as a war to cloud over the more subtle constitutional issues. I don't think temporary displays are not a problem constitutionally. But why do they have to be so damn cheesy?
»

Actually, Rob

Maybe I didn't do a good job of making my point clear, but it seems to me that the "Christian message" IS an attempt to co-mingle religion and politics (church and state) whereas the "Jewish message" is just symbolic of their holiday celebration.

As I said earlier in the thread, I love the idea of religious displays as a historical reminder of our culture.  The more the better, I say.  I don't see that any displays of cultural history are a violation of church and state issues.

Now....when someone tries to manipulate the display, that's another subject.

»

They should

include all of forms of mythology then. Greek, Roman, African, Norse, etc.
»

Absolutely, Rob

Paganism, secularism......

Knowledge is power

»

Do it dude

erect something.
»

Let's not

go there.
»

Hmmmm

Lil squeamish Rob?

»

This is a molehill....

....the thread seems to be quite a bit larger though.
»

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