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Submitted by Berd on Mon, 10/26/2009 - 10:22pm.
I participate in PMR because I am opposed to aggression, imperialism, and the militarization of our society, and because I seek to resist militarization and imperialism by drawing attention to how we are all complicit when our municipal ports are used to enable the war-machine. PMR is a movement. People who oppose and seek to resist imperialism (and policies of global dominance) are welcome to participate. It's fun, and very meaningful, so check it out. Olympia Port Militarization Resistance As long as the USA operates on policies of global dominance, I will resist. I will oppose the wars, and seek to draw attention to, and to educate people about, the wrongs of the wars. I stand in opposition to imperialism. I stand in opposition to the shipment of the weapons of imperial wars. (p.s. Digression: I think it is wrong to profit off of war, whether the war is unjust or not.)
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just a thought
Submitted by chad360 on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 5:07am.Glad to see you expressing yourself and encouraging others to do so, but I'm fairly sure that imperialism is not the correct term, and would only apply if the US sought to add all these places that we dominate to the union of states.
I think we can agree that the US could have more progressive foreign policy, but I'm curious if you really think America is all that bad (please use facts and compare to other nations).
I have worked for several international organizations (both here and abroad), and I think we are well off to have a nation that protects our liberty and freedom of religion.
What I'd like to see is more ethical solidarity with the Federal Republic of Germany, as I believe that they are doing a fairly good job.
good luck Chad
Submitted by wilson on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 9:02am.Cheetwoot
Submitted by DrewHendricks on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 4:26pm.Would it really only be an empire if we added Iraq and Afghanistan to our formal polictical structure? Well, my memory of the history of the Roman Empire was that subject territories stayed pretty much intact with their pre existing religious and cultural structures, but were paying tribute (slaves, conscripts, goods) to Roma. Very much the same as our current system of trading oil in the Bourse for dollars, rather than Euros (which is what Saddam Hussein was doing or threatening to do when the US invaded Iraq in 2003). That use of the dollar to trade oil is an artificial suport for the value of the dollar, and of course allows currencies which trade against the dollar to direct the flow of value toward the center of the financial imperial system we call the international banking system. This is a modern form of tribute, and it is not the only one.
On a more practical, less abstract level lets consider the 7,000+ bases the US has outside of North America. That's a pretty widespread staging / basing of force, and a lot of that force is staged to intervene, should some country somewhere vote for someone we didn't approve in Washington DC. Like, say, Venezuela. Or Iraq in the 1950's. Or Nicaragua in the 1980's. Or Haiti in the 1990's. The list goes on, others can help you with the details. Check out Howard Zinn, for starters.
Do I like my freedom of religion? Sure, if I had it. You see, my religion demands that trees be held sacred and protected - not mowed down and loaded on ships. It demands that we worship in the nude, and in community, and in public. Yeah, holding that ceremony in Sylvester park at noon? Right, I can just see the "freedom" now. It is coated in pepper sauce dispensed from a bottle, held by a man in black padded armor while he is lauging at my tears. I have about as much freedom of religion in this money worshiping, tree killing and people-disrespecting country as you have of sprouting purple wings and flying to Venus. Is it better than it was? Heck yes. Its better than most periods of history, I might add. But is it good enough, have we turned back from the brink of mutially assured extinction? Not hardly. The struggle continues.
oh, you are a pagan also?
Submitted by chad360 on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 9:50pm.Venus is great, I was just there last nite with a fun group of friends, but we teleported (wings take too long to grow =).
So, pagan man, plant any trees lately? carve any lithics? heck, even stack any rocks? I do, it is fun, especially when it does not ostracize me from my community and use my difference (read my choices in how I act and feel and reason) as an excuse to justify my hatred and discontent.
Wanna change the system? (or whatever), no problem, but...
...you got a bad attitude about your fellow human being, and I admit not everyone is worth loving, but as long as you are centered in hate, I don't think you are gonna make it to anyplace better...or, more importantly, inspire anyone to change or to strive for something besides the ever hated status quo.
My status quo is walking & biking, not driving. My status quo is gardening not buying. My status quo is loving not hating, so I'll take my status quo over your "fight" anyday.
Dwell there in hate-land, hate America and all the Americans that you generalize so easily about as much as you want, I just don't buy into your useless dogma and your tone that suggests you are a morally superior being that knows better. In fact, it is really off-putting (no one likes a wanna-be know-it-all or a kid who is too cool for school). That is why I will never stand with the likes of you in solidarity.
<back to the story>
Drew, I can say the same for my ancestors, the Celts, the Irish, the Danish, and even further back, including my ancestors of other ethinic groups than the skin I wear today, like my "indigenous American" ancestors that are actually folks from Mongolia who came across the Bering land bridge...
...you mix the semantics of the individual with that of what is based on racial and nationalistic identities, smearing racism and stereotypical identities to the point where you just don't make sense. When I was a debate wonk I routinely ate folks like you for light snacks.
Wanna play nude?, goto Sauvie Island and have a bonfire on Collins Beach (I'll see you there =)
-or Bagby, Rooster Rock, even the ef'n Bohemian Grove for sake of argument (nod to Berd =).
-or frick dude, the TESC forest on a good shroomy nite. If you can't make it work in the US, I doubt you'd last a NY minute anywhere else (prove me wrong if you want by sending us some snapshots from the other side, I really don't care).
As far as I'm concerned, TFI is doing more than the rest of us all combined who are sitting here enjoying this paradise that is the PacNW and good ole OlyWA ...
...I mean heck, when was the last time you sought to sponsor a refugee?
That is the real answer.
Change America from the inside by turning the melting pot on!
Now that is real diversity brother, and can I get an "Amen"?
BTW Drew, who did Salish kill to live here?, and if you care, why does who you think lived here first play such a large part in your value system? Gonna shed any tears for the neanderthals? I smirk in your general direction.
<peace> I think I'm done here <double whew>
who did Salish kill to live here?
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 10:02pm.matter more to those they killed?
Submitted by chad360 on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 10:42pm.Seriously?
You don't think that the Salish made life and death decisions, were the ones "handing down the laws and making the rules", and were filled with self-hate and loathing?
I'd think they thought they were "right" just as much as you assume that "America" thinks it is right?
NEWSFLASH: you are mixing up actions of individuals viewed over time with the actions of nation states comprised of many individuals and assuming this respesents a national meme or identity?
America is an idea. The US is a nation.
There is nothing holy or right about being the "first" or "current" occupant of any geographical space, and outside of that, I don't even know what your point could be construed to represent.
yeah, we're done here...
Submitted by DrewHendricks on Thu, 10/29/2009 - 9:59pm.By way of proving that the US is in fact an Empire, I used the example of the former Salish territory, which you now reside in, which is a US State.
The US did add this territory to its political union, and does to this day dominate it through force of arms as well as political suppression, despite the rhetoric of "rights," religious and otherwise.
That argument was in no way supposed to imply that the Salish were the first humans who ever lived here, or the best who ever lived here. I would not like to live in any culture which allows slavery. Which is one part of why I critique this one, in fact.
Your debate skills are good only for obfuscation of the issue, which might win you points in the Bush White House, but this is Olympia.
I also took your premise somewhat to task, with a vague reference to the Roman system of tribute and comparing it to the current central banking system of tribute. Financial imperialism is real, it is recognized by scholarship, and it is actively criticized by those who also oppose political imperialism. Take it or not, but it is a side argument and not terribly important since I already established the Empire-ness of the U.S. under your own false premise.
Aside from the first two, I established that the United States operates thousands of bases overseas and regularly intervenes in the political establishment of countries not directly in our own formal political union. This again asserts the Empire-ness of the U.S. in a direct, current, international way. Non empires do not topple the governments of other countries as happened in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Nicaragua, etc etc etc. When the last foreign government sought to topple the government of the U.S., was that government said to be an empire? I would answer yes.
You also had a side point about freedom of religion. In response to this, I pointed out that "freedom" is fairly narrowly granted in that regard, citing specific nudity and tree-worshiping aspects of my own religion which are at odds with the municipal code and Statutes of the state of Washington. I cited a hypothetical example of this. You responded by essentially questioning my practices closely and suggesting that running off and doing these things far away from social situations in public was equivalent to freedom. If so, I suggest you tell that to Anne Frank, who was after all quite free to celebrate the Seder as long as she didn't leave the attic.
You're many things, but a debate geek is not one of the names which comes foremost to mind. You accuse me of living in hate when all you can do is verbally shit on my religion and my freedoms. How very petty and sad.
Good bye to you, Chad. Call me when you've grown up.
argue about the meaning of a word
Submitted by chad360 on Fri, 10/30/2009 - 10:43am.You use obscenity when you can't change someone's mind?
<great tactic> <very respectful>
*You raise so many good points, like: "When the last foreign government sought to topple the government of the U.S., was that government said to be an empire?" <talk about ad hoc reasoning>
*You are talking about the "evil empire" of the Soviets (but was that the last one to try), and that doesn't really even relate to what is essentially a disagreement on the use of a term (don't you comprehend that?).
*America is no more an empire than I'm Caesar...
...GE, now that is an empire (by your defination, anything that projects force outside itself is an "empire"...to loose of a usage for me).
*You profess your hate, not me (if you profess it then it is not my accusation)
*And you go off about your faith practice of choice, which I share BTW, so it is as much "my" religion as yours, and you accuse me of attacking your faith when I ask you how you worship.
*I celebrate my faith by planting trees, visiting the sacred groves in town, stacking rocks along the trail and seashore, and traveling to be with folks to celebrate in social situations in public, and you compare that to Anne Frank.
And then you dis me by implying that I'm immature-
-please cite examples of your maturity here on OlyBlog if you are going to question mine.
My take (2cents) is that you have a hard time getting along with folks that challenge your belief or push-back on your POV in any way. You use your hatred of the system and feelings of anger to justify just about any line of reasoning as long as you can shove your POV down someone's throat while feeling morally justified in doing so.
Personally, I'll take my civic cue from folks like Naomi Wolf and my language definations from scholars, in part because you seek solidarity, but foment division & angst.<counterproductive to say the least>
No Drew, not goodbye. No Drew, not dismissal. Here to stay. Resident for life.
See you around town buddy, and be sure to have a good day and try to bring a smile to a stranger's face while you are at it.
For me, you are like the punchline to a funny joke, like a homeland security watch-dog version of Micheal Moore, and since we are strangers (don't know each other, never met), then you can count my smile if you like.
A good day to you Sir & Happy Samhain.
Sorry
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 10/30/2009 - 8:31pm.over the shoulder
Submitted by chad360 on Sat, 10/31/2009 - 12:17am.I don't disagree that this thread went off the tracks at the point where one person argues with another about the meaning of a word for what America does-
-personally, that is kinda why I kept blogging.
In instance, by either Drew or my interpretation (others said hegemony and such), we were both correct, for instance just because we disagree, that does not devalue what either of us believe in (we can agree on that can't we?).
But I do think hate & anger are a big deal in America & worldwide...many folks disagree about how stuff should be done and that builds up; just look at road rage.
I wish there was a nonviolent protest that folks in the US could pull to change US foreign policy to drastically curtain the role of the US military (addressing these issue of empire)...
...like a consumer product boycott protest.
My mom had a phrase for folks like you...
Submitted by DrewHendricks on Tue, 11/03/2009 - 3:46pm.As in Ignores the points made, engages in ad-hominem attacks, changes the subject of the discussion at the moment he suffers a rhetorical setback, and throws poo instead of light.
Yes, you are right - we have never met. Lets hope that when we do, you are not so seriously off base as you were in this thread. But seriously, I am done "arguing" with you, you are not engaged or engaging. You assume and project and I'm not playing that game with you.
last word
Submitted by chad360 on Tue, 11/03/2009 - 5:30pm.oh Drew, is that the last word? Is this horse you are riding finally dead?
Oh blessed be!
<tangent> I think it is funny that you brought your mom into this-
-have you no honor man?
remember to come up for air
Submitted by wilson on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 9:02am.Can it wilson
Submitted by Laurian on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 10:48am.I think...
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 11:01am.Once in a while wilson needs to be called on his shit
Submitted by Laurian on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 5:30pm.it's fun.
Submitted by wilson on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 2:35pm.chill
Submitted by chad360 on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 9:54pm.Hi Big L., dude I actually think you & Rob are a bit off-base and overly defensive (unless wilson = drew) <grin>
<it is all good>
it is OK, wilson is here to learn
Submitted by chad360 on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 12:17pm.Hey wilson, you act like life in the US is an uphill battle? where's the beef buddy?
I appreciate the "good luck" but I feel like you are dissing me-
-are you?
If you have something to say, or want to comment and tell me how wrong or lame I am just say it (no reason to beat around the bush).
I'm <down> with the US, proud that our nation protects our liberty and defends the freedom of religion we enjoy. What is wrong with the desire to share this with folks who don't enjoy those same human rights?
...anyways, I don't know what you mean by "coming up for air"? talkn SCUBA or what?
and BTW folks, there is no win or lose. Those that game a system just end up playing themselves (usually as fools =).
told ya Chad
Submitted by wilson on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 5:20pm.ya mean Drew?
Submitted by chad360 on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 9:59pm.I'm not sweating anything-
-guns, germs, and steel (pretty much explains it, or at least, a great place to start)
Had Drew written that, I'd value his POV more-
-his pseudo intelligence "humit" mumbo jumbo is a far cry from my experience working in that field (but each to his own, I draw the line at insulting his work).
Check it:
Round up all the folks in all the Americas over all time, and you quickly find out that is a drop in the bucket when compared to other populations elsewhere, like I dunno, Eurasia. I mean heck, my direct ancestors invented the longbow which has been taking lives for a heck of a long time, so does that mean "I'm an empire".
America would be an empire if the US had added ever site we fought to our national inventory of geographical possessions (the Brits, the Egyptians, etc...).
National and racial identities, while neat and all, are not diversity: it is racism and stereotypical to boot-
-archeology beats opinion every-time
Drew can eat his hat or smoke it for all I care ( i suggest the water pipe/BONG for hat smoking, hats just do not work in the old vap =).
The bottom line is that populations change location for many reasons, and to attach too much morality to it is just a parlor game of semantics. I haven't pulled the trigger and I didn't sign up for Bush's jihad, so as far as I'm concerned, I'm doing better than alot of my peers on a global level...I'm mean, what kind of fanatic uses religion or nationalism as an excuse/justification to kill, maim, terrorize? The "holy land"...yeah, right-
-the real touch choice is to avoid that "us VS them" mentality and realize that we are all members of the same species living on the same planet where no one has any answers to the big questions like "what are we doing in the middle of this 16+ billion light-year gulf of an universe WITHOUT any real understanding of what is going on or where it is all going.
In my mind there is alot to be gained from realizing that we are all in this together.
<anyways>
...whew...
now I'll go read Drew's post on this thread (...I have to admit I do like the idea of calling the Puget Sound the Salish Sea, but that is because I play D&D and love geographical lore =)
Stop being such a frigging ass
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 9:58pm.really Gug?
Submitted by chad360 on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 10:09pm.Gug, I guess you are talking to me-
-I will stop when you stop (whatever that means).
btw, you seem to be acting like an newb (and here I was almost thinking you were possessing a keen insight and zen-like calm wisdom), but you are just another hair-kari wipe-out-
-dontcha know that jumping in on a thread and flaming out right off the bat is like blowing your load too soon in sex? But if you want to play that way, <neat>, then please just go play with yourself (we are all adults here and we use protection, my brand of choice is common sense and an open mind).
BTW, I challenge the "American" lifestyle everyday, it is the American thing to do, I mean, that is, if you really are an American.
Perhaps you have confused me with your reflection in the mirror.
(ew, was that a burn?) I'm too sober to tell ;=)
I meant good luck getting an
Submitted by wilson on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 2:31pm.I fall in exactly with you,
Submitted by wilson on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 2:34pm.thanks
Submitted by chad360 on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 10:13pm.But could you go get me a cup of espresso while I find some red shirts?
touche
full disclosure: actually I'm the newb here, I don't even know how to get the little ' over the "e"
spit-wads at a battleship...
Submitted by chad360 on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 10:33pm....or something along those lines (I quote a saying from my ole civics prof, may he rest in peace), and to be honest, a broadside of hot air is really not that much of a "hit" to take.
actually
Submitted by chad360 on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 10:16pm.it is time to spin up the FTL and send the jump coordinates to the fleet, so I'll catch all you fast movers, you boomers, you blips and you freaks on the flip side.
I'm off to the dark side of the moon tonite
teleport, the only way to fly
g'nite ya all & sweet dreams
Re: Discussion about Native Americans
Submitted by Berd on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 11:30pm.http://honorearth.org/news/winona-laduke-indigenous-uranium-forum-acoma-pueblo
very cool
Submitted by chad360 on Wed, 10/28/2009 - 6:27am.Reminds me of this book I read about the history of uranium and what folks in Australia experienced as this mineral was sought after. I'm a big fan of solar and to some extent wind & micro-hydropower, but I believe that nuclear is OK as well, especially if the fuel was coming from weapons...and since it is most certainly *not* recycling warheads, I think the other alternatives are the first choice, regardless if you consider yourself a member of a "first peoples" community or not.
What I need to do is step-up and learn how to code the videos into blog posts as well as pictures. Thanks for sharing.
Berd's viewpoint
Submitted by chad360 on Wed, 10/28/2009 - 7:08am.Hey Berd,
I'm curious to hear what you have to say about source of ethinc orgin and what race means...
... I'm fairly open-minded (to the point of being a bit daft), but I'd like to make a connection with your viewpoint on first peoples and how migration and such links into hegmony, domination theory, and nationalsim.
I'm pretty sure we actually share very similar beliefs, but I'm concerned that we have a big disconnect when it comes to where these issues meet in the context of the crossroad of our life her on Terra. We have talked all over this thread, so feel free to reset to a new thread if you care to engage on this topic for discussion.
I think that you dislike the attitude of domination theory as practiced by certain elements of the US population, but I also think you love America, so I'll wait and see where you chose to take this dialog.
<peace>
Chad
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 10/28/2009 - 7:52am.My "stop being as ass" comment was for Wilson. Drew had a perfectly reasonable reply to your "just a thought" comment. I don't agree with 100 percent of it, but it was thoughtful and well stated nonetheless.
As for the Salish, you are correct: "I'd think they thought they were "right" just as much as you assume that "America" thinks it is right?" Who ever is "on top" is almost always going to claim they are right and superior. That attitude is usually dangerous to other groups and I think it deserves a fair share of criticism. The fact that "others before 'us'" behaved similarly does not justify anything.
When we export democracy, we usually end up with a little less of it back home.
thanks gug
Submitted by chad360 on Wed, 10/28/2009 - 8:37am.I appreciate you clearing up the big disconnect on my part-
-I got blocked, so I'm waiting to submit my opus that the dialog last nite prompted me to write. Drew got me thinking (as he always does).
Hopefully all is well for everyone today in OlyBlogLand
I agree, I was surprised by where Drew went, and even thought I guess I don't agree/or undestand his viewpoint completely (hard to walk in his shoes), I empathize with the feelings, and so I await my opus showing up.
Thanks for reaching out, and we can strike my response if you want since it detract from the thread.
re: export democracy? I hear that, so my call is to invite folks in (melting pot)
cheers,
gotta get to work
Here's an interesting map
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 10/28/2009 - 8:50am.and the super thought here is...
Submitted by chad360 on Wed, 10/28/2009 - 1:51pm....to meet the definition of empire you'd consider them (these mil.gov/dod bases over-seas) the same as colonies of an empire, or a confederacy of city-states in an imperial empire <grin>, or like US states?
Oh, and map-wise, I'd like to see a google mash-up with various icons to represent detailed info about these installations.
Thanks for sharing.
At the risk of narrowing the definition to a Socratic dead end
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 10/28/2009 - 3:09pm.an empire is an expansive collection of states and peoples ruled by dictator or an oligarchy. While we benefit from some lovely democratic institutions, I believe an inordinate amount of influence and power in America is held by a relatively few undemocratic institutions and individuals. We are, arguably, an oligarchy...and therefore an empire. Then again, I'm not sure being a democracy gives us a right to behave like an empire. And we do.
I might reconsider and let bygones be bygones if we gave up all territorial claims outside of the Union, greatly reduced our military presence oversees, and stopped doing things like invading Iraq. Until then, we behave an awful lot like an empire. Of course, we like to think of ourselves as a "good" empire like the old Brits, but that's a different conversation. Anyway, you know what happens when you use the One Ring to rule them all. Never works out well in the end.
Not sure what to make of the map other than be impressed at the breadth and span of America's sphere of power and influence...and that's just on the military side of the equation. I haven't even touched on our economic power and how we use it to influence other states and peoples.
<chuckle>
Submitted by chad360 on Wed, 10/28/2009 - 4:19pm.Nice post-
-federal republic but not much more really (I'm a person/business/taxable/enterprise)...
...the framework is there, but the thing that brings the democracy to the table is the people.
It does seem unbalanced. Citizens need the power to directly filibuster congress or something-
-will of the people and all that-
-hey, do you think that telecommuting could help curb nepotism and lobby influence in DC and maybe increase operational security
I think this map actually
Submitted by Bobby Ganoush on Thu, 10/29/2009 - 6:49am.I think this map actually is a good argument against the definition of empire. If we are saying that bases and troops are one of the main elements of that categorization. Australia? Spain? France? I don't think you can argue these are pieces of our empire. Just look at the lack of support in Iraq by some of these nations.
Perhaps a better definition than empire would be hegemon. This seems to fit the more abstract reasoning given for America as empire.
Here is some of what wikipedia has to say on the matter
"In the twentieth century, the USSR and the USA fought the Cold War (1945–91) for global hegemony after the Second World War (1939–45) broke the old European empires. The Warsaw Pact and NATO were the regional arms in a struggle of Communism versus Capitalism. Fighting directly (the arms race) and indirectly (proxy wars) against any country whose internal, national actions might destabilise its hegemony, the USSR defeated the nationalist Hungarian Revolution of 1956, and the USA precipitated the US–Vietnam War (1965–75) by participating in the Vietnamese Civil War (1955–65) the National Liberation Front fought against the Republic of Vietnam, the US's client state.[7]
In the post–Cold War world of the twenty-first century, the French Socialist politician Hubert Védrine describes the USA as a hegemonic hyperpower, while the U.S. political scientists John Mearsheimer and Joseph Nye counter that the USA is not a "true" hegemony, because it does not have the resources to impose a proper, formal, global rule; despite its political and military strength, the USA is economically equal to Europe, thus, cannot rule the international stage.[8] Several other countries are either emerging or re-emerging as powers, such as China, Russia, India, and the European Union."
hegemony
Submitted by chad360 on Thu, 10/29/2009 - 7:38am.yeah, I have heard that before as well, and it does suffice
I think what most people perceive is the influence of domination theory into the American geo-political model...
...face it, Rove and Cheney played the soft-minded neo-Christian doomsday meme to the hilt...Jr just ate it up like gospel.
I don't think that America needs to project force with overseas bases; carrier groups are good enough.
Though, while we invest in the useless, costly tools of empire, we fall far behind leaders like Germany applying solar technology to infrastructure (where the real pay-off is).
personally, I'm getting off the grid as soon as I can afford to =)
Imperialism
Submitted by Berd on Fri, 10/30/2009 - 8:41pm.I think the argument that the USA behaves as and constitutes an empire, is valid, sound, and strong.