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Submitted by Mike on Thu, 11/22/2007 - 9:21am.
There is a meme out in the "vast right wing conspiracy" that you will see play out here on Olyblog on a regular basis. The gist of this meme is to demean any current movements toward peace and social justice by praising earlier movements and trying to separate these earlier "noble" efforts from current day work for peace and social justice.
Here is another picture from the peace and social justice work that led up to tank man facing down a line of tanks:
The struggle at Tiananman Square was direct action, complete disruption. The Army was blockaded on many main thoroughfares as the military was sent to "restore order." But if you want to take Tank Man out of the context of the civil unrest and disorder that brought the tanks into the streets of Beijing in 1989, I say no. The direct action of the people of Beijing for freedom, free speech, the right to assemble, their desire to have no military in their city is the context for a solitary man standing alone to stop a line of tanks. If you think that Tank Man was a noble soul and the people who chose direct action in Olympia were rabble, you are not enlightened, you are late. Supporting a person's right to take to the street to stop the military twenty years ago and demeaning the same activities in the present moment is not enlightened, it is late.
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You would have a point if
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 11/22/2007 - 10:06am.In the 60s people sat at the counters knowing full well they could get killed or hurt. Same with the Chinese students.
The people in Olympia are not oppressed, they do not have freedoms taken away, and no reason outside of paranoia or hyperbole to believe they'd be killed at the Port.
When the government shuts down WIP, or your parents "disappear" because of your actions downtown, or if the OPD had used real bullets instead of non-lethal dispersion tactics, then you'd have a bit more validity.
When someone even remotely associated with OPMR is found floating in the bay, and the police and courts give a free pass to the people openly bragging about doing it, then you'll have more validity.
Please give me a second grace. Please give me a second face. I've fallen far down, the first time around, now I just sit on the ground in your way.
Nick Drake
Nuff said?
Submitted by Mike on Thu, 11/22/2007 - 10:17am.Sure... enough said, break the law get in trouble.
Submitted by Tschida on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 1:28pm.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
I find no part of your post
Submitted by Mike on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 3:19pm.I find no part of your post to be the least bit shocking.
Many respectable people in Greensboro were mortified at the uppity negroes who sat at the white only lunch counters back in the 60s. You would have fit right in with the respectable folks of Greensboro. I would have fit right in with the rabble at the lunch counters. Some things do not change.
So...
Submitted by Tschida on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 8:57pm.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
Get a load of that...he's
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 5:07pm.Please give me a second grace. Please give me a second face. I've fallen far down, the first time around, now I just sit on the ground in your way.
Nick Drake
I didn't hear him call anyone a racist
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 5:12pm.That is because ...
Submitted by Tschida on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 9:03pm.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
Dialogue is not possible
Submitted by Mike on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 6:12pm.Dialogue is not possible unless you try to understand the points being made.
Your point is based on a false premise
Submitted by Tschida on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 9:07pm.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
"Break the law, get in trouble" -- unless you're a photographer
Submitted by jlw on Sat, 11/24/2007 - 9:01am.Peace became pizza. -- Guglielmo
I'm thankful that it's Thanksgiving...
Submitted by Rick on Thu, 11/22/2007 - 10:17am....and so I don't have to go through point-by-point and unpack all the faulty logic that Merwyn put in the above comment.
I'll just point out that protesting for rights of others is a noble cause, be they African Americans in the US, or the citizens of Iraq. It is the very best of human nature to protect those who are oppressed and vulnerable, as you yourself have expressed many times in the abortion debate.
> Say something interesting or say nothing at all. <
People in the Middle East
Submitted by security_six on Thu, 11/22/2007 - 9:47pm.Have been killing each other for eons. I would hardly call them oppressed and vulnerable. Angry and crazy maybe, but not oppressed and vulnerable. It's a cycle, one group gets dominance for a while, then another, then a peacemaker comes along for a bit, then groups start whomping on each other, etc...
I can't believe the arrogance of the government to think they can fix a thousands year old problem in a couple of years...
I will try to break it down for you, Merwyn:
Submitted by Mike on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 8:26am.The police response to constitutionally guaranteed right to peacably assemble, to engage in the act of "sitting in" which has long been identified as protected political speech shows that the exercise of our constitutionally guaranteed rights is not tolerated.
The people who sat at the lunch counters broke segregation laws. Conservatives and people of privilege alive at that time came with exactly the same arguments that operate today, hey, the negroes can vote, they have free speech, but they go too far when they break the law and sit at a counter that is reserved for white people. That is the law, if they don't like it, why don't they change it instead of breaking the law?
The people who went to the Port demonstrations did so knowing full well they could get killed or hurt. It is not necessarily safe to stand in front of a tank, or to sit or stand in front of a semi carrying war materials. It is not safe to sit in the street in the face of a line of police in riot gear. The activists of Olympia have one of our own who was killed by an American made bulldozer that we provided to oppress and victimize a civilian Palestinian population. If you are capable of hearing and understanding as you suggest below to Rick in these comments, you should recognize that the people who went to demonstrate at the Port understood the risks very well. We were lucky. No one was killed. There were no serious injuries that I am aware of. The risk of being killed or hurt was definitely present.
No, you are very much mistaken. The people in Olympia had their freedoms to engage in politically protected speech taken away. The people in Olympia hd their constitutionally protected right to peacably assemble taken away. Free speech is meaningless if it is only permitted in areas of popular support. The right to peacably assemble and seek redress for grievance is meaningless if it may only be done in a limited manner that is an accommodation of the matter being grieved. Look again at the riot gear, the body armor, the police batons and open your eyes. When you peacably assemble to seek redress for grievance and riot gear are deployed against you, it is impossible not to recognize that people may now be injured or killed.
So when these things you mention begin to happen, you will suddenly become one of the brave souls who will sit a lunch counter when it is illegal? or sit in a public square when it is illegal? or stand in a public road and hinder traffic and break traffic law? Will you concede that when the things you describe above begin to happen, that it's not a matter of validity, it's a matter of being so very late to work to keep our freedoms?
If this level of outrage is what it will take for you to recognize the validity of the work for peace and justice, then you are not enlightened, you are late. Do you really want to tolerate a level of injustice and political suppression that rises to the level you describe before you recognize the validity of the opposition to it? so if we are simply not allowed to have our votes counted in elections? or if our phone conversations and email communications are tapped and monitored, but nobody is floating in the bay, that's ok with you as a loyal American? That's the level of violence that you need to recognize the validity of the opposition to an illegal war, a war for oil and war profits? Is it possible for you to set the bar just a little bit lower?
And finally, even in the south where I grew up, when negroes were being lynched, the KKK was a secret society. That is part of the reason for the hoods and sheets, it made it hard to identify the number of police and other "honorable" citizens who were violating a lot of laws in the oppression of jews, homosexuals, communists, and uppity negroes. The open bragging about the crimes didn't happen, nobody was walking around talking about having beaten Emmet Till to death or having killed and buried the freedom riders in Mississippi.
Please read this hard and if you are really trying to understand the flaws in your post that Rick alluded to, I think you may recognize them.
Peaceably assemble
Submitted by security_six on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 10:52am.My @$$.
You know I'm all for dissent, but not deceit. This city was promised non violent protests and did not get it.
And as I have said before, I consider daring a truck driver to run a person over and kill them is a form of mental abuse (violence)
And what about those bozo's trying to do those "citizen's arrests"
Had they been more honest about the violence, and near rioting that they were going to cause, I would have been totatally supportive of this dissent. But this city was promised "Non violent" protests and did not get them.
Nor will you ever convince me that the police engaged in "brutality"
If these people actually accepted the risks they took, then they have no reason to complain when they got a little pepper spray or pushed around with a baton. Boo hoo hoo. If you know the risks, shut up already. It's not like they were going in there wide eyed and innocent.
First these people tell me
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 1:00pm.Please give me a second grace. Please give me a second face. I've fallen far down, the first time around, now I just sit on the ground in your way.
Nick Drake
Think I am with Rick on this, why waste my time going over it?
Submitted by Mike on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 3:26pm.I have no desire to play
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 5:14pm.Fear not, I'll stay out of your threads, I trust you'll stay out of mine.
Please give me a second grace. Please give me a second face. I've fallen far down, the first time around, now I just sit on the ground in your way.
Nick Drake
What can I say?
Submitted by Mike on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 6:21pm.Noise machine?
Submitted by security_six on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 8:49pm.Love it or leave it, buddy.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 8:53pm.(As seen on the back of a 16 wheeler)
Submitted by DC on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 9:33pm.So If I don't agree
Submitted by security_six on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 9:18pm.Six...
Submitted by Tschida on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 9:15pm.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
LOL
Submitted by security_six on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 9:21pm.ask a question.
Submitted by Mike on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 11:00pm.Promises were made?
Submitted by Mike on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 11:26pm.I am not sure who you think had standing to make promises about the protests. The PMR and other groups had codes of expected conduct that were widely distributed, but you can't "fire" a protester for not following a code of conduct because they were never hired in the first place.
Read what you wrote carefully and see if you really to continue to claim that you would have been totally supportive of a movement that had promised and delivered violence and rioting.
Is that really what you want to claim?
I think without the intention and voluntary code of non-violent conduct by the protesters to not become violent and engage in rioting the numbers of people willing to take part in the port demonstrations would have been much smaller. A promise of violence and riot would not have been acceptable to me. I would have had no interest or time in providing any support to that sort of action.
I believe you on that one. And I am not sure that the police engaged in brutality either, but I think they engaged in misconduct and I believe they willfully infringed on individuals' civil rights. Further, because the police are hired and can and should be expected to follow their code of conduct, and because their code of conduct (general order already cited) includes respecting the civil rights of individuals, they can and should be held accountable for their misconduct.
Now I doubt that you will ever be convinced that the police engaged in police misconduct, but in the long run, there is no need to convince you. There may be need to convince a federal court that the police infringed on important civil rights and once that is done, whether you believe it or not remains every bit as trivial as it is at this very moment.
Good Lord
Submitted by Norm on Thu, 11/22/2007 - 12:10pm.Gandhi, King, Jesus, the Dalai Lama
Submitted by Mike on Thu, 11/22/2007 - 12:52pm.All of my heroes held to their message and vision. Batteries not included.
Ronald Reagan was a bit that same way.
I think that's a Gandhi quote: first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
You just keep on keepin on
Submitted by Norm on Thu, 11/22/2007 - 12:53pm.Amen, brother.
Submitted by Mike on Thu, 11/22/2007 - 12:56pm.I have faulty logic, but if
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 11/22/2007 - 9:06pm.I would like to point out, since my Abortion Belief was brought up, that not only have I never gone to any Pro-Life rally, but if I were to find myself at one I wouldn't be throwing rocks at cops or trying to block the shipments of supplies.
Rick, I don't have a problem with you not liking me, I haven't been the best at making sure we're best buds. But do you really think it's "dialogue" or "community" to be brushing off every view you don't agree with as narrow-minded or illogical? You delete a post of mine because I called people crybabies and on reflection I'm okay with that: cooler heads etc. It'd be nice to have the same courtesies.
I hope you and everyone else had a happy Thanksgiving.
Please give me a second grace. Please give me a second face. I've fallen far down, the first time around, now I just sit on the ground in your way.
Nick Drake
You can take it personally if you want...
Submitted by Rick on Thu, 11/22/2007 - 9:20pm....but I think it was pretty clear I was talking about the content of your post.
> Say something interesting or say nothing at all. <
Of course you were, and if
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 11/22/2007 - 9:28pm.Please give me a second grace. Please give me a second face. I've fallen far down, the first time around, now I just sit on the ground in your way.
Nick Drake
See above
Submitted by Mike on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 3:30pm.When you fail to respond to my post and start mixing my specific message to you with what you have heard from "these people" then your intentions and logic are in question for me.
If you post in good faith and really want to engage in a dialogue on this, it may be possible for us to learn something. Otherwise I think it is just more rhetoric and diatribe and I won't bother to try a dialogue with you.
Racism vs pro/anti war. This
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 9:11pm.Well nobody has
Submitted by security_six on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 9:19pm.Started making comparisons to Nazi Germany...
DOH!
stop reading
Submitted by Mike on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 11:02pm.Why?
Submitted by Norm on Sat, 11/24/2007 - 10:55am.ok with me.
Submitted by Mike on Sat, 11/24/2007 - 5:55pm.What Mike said
Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 9:42pm.Come On!
Submitted by security_six on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 9:48pm.Swift boating
Submitted by Mike on Fri, 11/23/2007 - 11:48pm.is not an effective rhetorical plan if you have to read carefully, or quote accurately, or stick to the facts. Use of force is preferred to use of facts.
This is an important point in so much right wing argument today. Just scan a couple of quotes by the Great Communicator to understand the problem with rhetoric and facts.
Per Mr. Reagan: "Facts are stupid things." '88 (slight misquote of John Adams, 'Facts are stubborn things.')
"Trees cause more pollution than automobiles do." Reagan '81
"I have flown twice over Mt St Helens out on our west coast. I'm not a scientist and I don't know the figures, but I have a suspicion that that one little mountain has probably released more sulphur dioxide into the atmosphere of the world than has been released in the last ten years of automobile driving or things of that kind that people are so concerned about." Reagan '80. Actually, Mount St. Helens, at its peak activity, emitted about 2,000 tons of sulphur dioxide per day, compared with 81,000 tons per day by cars.
This post is about another big lie being utilized by the right wing noise machine - a claim for reverence of past civil rights which is simply not based in any sort of reality. It is a rhetorical tool. Facts truly are stubborn things.
As one that lived out the Civil Right struggles
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Sat, 11/24/2007 - 8:29am.I've been pointing out the similarities in rhetoric of that time, the Viet Nam War protests and our recent protests. No one is saying that someone is racist because they disagree with civil disobedience. What IS being said it that "THE LAW" is the constant reference point that seems to be the take up on the part of those that don't like war protest.
The Boston Tea Party violated the law also. There. No racial reflections.
There are two reasons to laugh, Norm
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Sat, 11/24/2007 - 5:05pm.When something is funny and when you are uncomfortable.
If you really think I'm trying to be funny, this is one of the times you've missed the mark.
As long as we're just going to let it all hang out here, I'm going to say that I seriously question where people are coming from when they don't see the similarities between law enforcement during the civil rights issues and law enforcement during war protests. It always comes down to the same old rhetoric "they were breaking the law". Bias can be inflected in many ways. As I read the postings in The Olympian, if you just took out a word or two and added a few (take out "hippie" and add "nigger") the rhetoric was almost identical. I realize that doesn't make people comfortable, but it's truth, like it or not.
For some reason, you and a few others seem to keep trying to roll this into something racial. It's not the racial issue, it's the "application of law". The cops during the civil rights unrest felt that they were upholding the law also. Only 40 years later does it seem ludicrous.
Well said.
Submitted by Rick on Sat, 11/24/2007 - 5:12pm.> Say something interesting or say nothing at all. <
It's not due to comfort
Submitted by Norm on Sat, 11/24/2007 - 10:43pm.