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Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 4:14pm.
Looks like there are a couple of Senators who understand that disarming students and facilty does not make a campus safer, and only infringes on constitutionally protected rights. http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.aspx?bill=6860&year=2008
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As a faculty member...
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 4:29pm....I'd immediately eject any student with a firearm due to violation of the social contract.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Cool.
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 4:40pm.As soon as this passes, I will notify my lawyer, and show him your statement and enroll in a class at TESC, hopefully one of yours. I will let you personally know I am lawfully armed, and since TESC is Sate Funded you cannot trample my Constitutional Rights. Then I will sue the crap out of TESC and use the money to buy more guns and a bigger boat. I look forward to the cash windfall. Heck, I will probably OC as there does not seem to be a requirement that I conceal my weapon, merely have a valid concealed weapons permit, which I do, which DOES NOT oblige the holder to conceal.
Thanks Rick!
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
Then I'm afraid...
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 4:43pm....you'll be deprived of the opportunity to learn anything about human nature in my course. Too bad.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Wrong
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 4:48pm.This law is designed to protect student's constitutional rights, and I can promise you if it passes I will be in whatever class I pay for. Or does the Washington State Constitution not apply to you? You have read that silly little document haven't you?
The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men.
Surely even you can understand what this means Rick. At any rate missing your class will be worth the money I recieve from a successful lawsuit. And I won't be the only one either.
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
Sounds like...
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 5:07pm....you might've hit the lottery.
I guess it might depend on that little piece of legislation, however. Good luck with that.
Also, TESC would have to find someone other than me to teach you. As I mentioned before, having a conversation with someone who has a gun, i.e., the power to kill, is antithetical to every principle of human cooperation and scholarly inquiry.
If you're interested in why I think this, I'd be glad to go through it with you.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Go for it
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 5:16pm.I would imagine it would require a new thread though. Although you can explain these two conflicting statements from TESC's Social Contract
WAC 175-120-015
... Students at The Evergreen State College enjoy the basic rights of all members of society.
And
WAC 174-120-035
(17) Weapons, firearms, explosives and dangerous chemicals: Firearms and weapons, as defined by state law, are prohibited on campus. Unauthorized use, possession or storage of any explosives, dangerous chemicals, substances or instruments which may be used to inflict bodily harm on another individual or damage upon college premises or at a college-sponsored event are prohibited.
I gather pen knives, cigarette lighters, or just about anything else are kept out of TESC? I can harm someone with a pen, or pencil, and also inflict damage upon college premises as well with them.
So does anything TESC has in their social contract trump THE STATE CONSTITUTION? Self defense and the right to bear arms for the same is a carefully protected and jealously guarded right in this state. Think carefully before you answer this. Do you think that even with current laws TESC could successfully win a lawsuit over kicking out a lawfully armed student? Think hard about that one too.
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
You'll notice...
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 5:45pm....that I've talked about my own moral position on this, not TESC's legal status. We should probably leave that for the lawyers.
I'll start another thread with the stuff about human altruism.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Okay
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 5:50pm.Your position is noted. I really doubt you have the authority to expell a student from your class if they are not violating any law. Strongly ask them to leave if you think they are not in the spirit you are trying to project, but legally I think they would stay.
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
Really?
Submitted by Jurjen S. on Wed, 02/06/2008 - 4:28am.You see...
Submitted by Rick on Wed, 02/06/2008 - 8:16am....I was here before the cops had guns. You may be shocked to learn that we got along just fine then.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Obviously the police force disagrees with you on that.
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 02/06/2008 - 6:15pm.n/t
TESC...
Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 4:57pm.And social contracts
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 4:59pm.Do not trump civil rights or state law. IIRC you cannot sign any rights away in this state anyway.
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
Damn Rick,
Submitted by JT on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 4:42pm.kind of harsh don't you think? Maybe you are missing your calling by not working for OPD? But then again, even they weren't that harsh.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Dangit JT!
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 4:44pm.I nearly spewed Sam Adams lager all over my computer! Nachos and beer at TugBoat Annie's happy hour...
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
Wow!
Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 5:04pm.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
That bill will never make it out of committee
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 5:29pm.I agree with Guglielmo
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 5:33pm.Maybe
Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 5:42pm.But Rick's "greater than the law" fit was funny!
S6
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 5:36pm.I put it in for a reason
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 5:48pm.Mainly because Rick was already go off on one of his tangents when I was discussing pepper spray. I was anticipating a similar off the cuff reaction to this, which I did not want since he is faculty at TESC and I wanted to engage in discourse with him about this, not have him stomp around telling me to get my own blog. I appreciate your input, but it seems a bit late to edit. It was not intended to welcome Rick. It was meant to let him know I was not in the mood for him to totatlly dismiss something because he is offended by the topic. Heck, I can't even talk about pepper spray now without him freaking.
Unless you or someone can give me a real good reason, the post stays unedited.
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
I don't have time to read every thread...
Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 5:52pm.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
Briefly...
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 5:56pm.Rick was already hostile to an entry I just made about non lethal defense products. In the past, I got into a huge fight with Rick, whereby both parties kept up an increasing level on insults and jabs. I got booted off olyblog for a few hours, and hashed things out with Rick. The only reason I got defensive right away was that I was already getting negative flack from him over a non gun post that did include some gun links incidental to the main topic. Since this particular post was very gun oriented, I simply did not want to put up with more "go get your own blog" statements. Thus my original caveat.
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
Have I disrespected you?
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:02pm.Do you really think that expressing contrary ideas is hostile?
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
I felt disrespected
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:06pm.When you promptly dismissed a thread that was primarly about something other than a gun as gun porn and suggested I should go somewhere else with it. I'm sure I have disrespected others as well either on purpose or unknowingly. At any rate, I was expecting more of the "take the gun stuff elsewhere" as your past actions indicate that.
Other viewpoints I can deal with. I'll edit my blog entry.
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
Contrary idea?
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:09pm.Hold on there cowboys
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 5:57pm.Well
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:01pm.They recieve state money for tuition as well for some students. If they are willing to recieve money from the state, the students should be protected by state laws.
Besides their own social contract speaks of the rights of the students as being the same as the rights of everyone. I have the right to bear arms. That is an interesting point you raise though.
The question is then, does the state and the students each give some of their soviergnty to to school, or do they still maintain their basic fundemantal rights?
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
I was gonna say, you don't
Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:03pm.Tuition is part of the school's operating budget only
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:13pm.Those same institutions
Submitted by security_six on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 8:42pm.Cannot ban people for race, creed, sexual preference, or any other civil liberty or protected class. Why ban gun owners? Might as well start banning Mormons or Evangelical Christians or Muslims...
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
Point of Clarification...
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 11:33pm....isn't it the guns that are being "banned" and not the gun owners?
And just where
Submitted by security_six on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 11:43pm.Would some of these people safely store their gun? The OPD won't do it, I am almost certain of that. They can't even figure out how to deal with someone lawfully armed trying to check a weapon to get past their illegal "no guns beyond this point" sign... As near as I can figure they do not provide secure storage per the law for people who need to check a firearm while conducting business outside of the common area of the station. They aren't going to check a homeless person's weapon.
I probably got myself and others worked up over an non issue. I know I could have approached it differently, and have said that before.
I wonder how many homeless/low income have CPLs? The $60 would represent a considerable outlay for some. Nonetheless there is that possibility. I need to quit letting my passion outrun my mouth sometimes. :-)
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
The Family Support Center...
Submitted by Phil Owen on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 11:02am.receives both state and federal funding. But you can be absolutely certain that if someone ever walks into the Homeless Services office with a weapon that we'll call the cops in an instant. Weapons are not welcome in our office, and we have the right to decide that no matter where our funding comes from.
The Canaanite's Call
What other
Submitted by security_six on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 8:44pm.Civil rights do you not respect? You have just ensured I will never support your agency or any affiliated group with the same discriminatory policies. Good going.
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
Ditto
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 8:52pm.As I asked before
Submitted by security_six on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 8:57pm.What other civil liberties do you not support? I am going to have to look for a local charity that does not so blatantly trample the civil rights of it's clients. Do you guys still let unmarried mothers and people of color recieve services too?
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
What about you?
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 8:59pm.There is a difference
Submitted by security_six on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 9:06pm.Between private property such as a home, that is open only to limited people, and property that has made itself available to the public and/or receives public funds. If you were not receiving public monies and open to the public I would say you are absolutely correct. Some rights of the property owner are changed when the property is opened to the public. I'll bet you could not discriminate against a person because of race or creed due to the types of services you provide and the public funding you receive.
Actually given the narrow scope of your services I may even be inclined to believe that without the public funds you would have more ability to restrict access for your services.. But you have public monies in your hands. Either all receive equal protection under the law or they don't.
Just out of curiosity, say a woman with a violent ex has a valid concealed weapons permit and comes to you for some sort of aid. She has her pistol and does not notice or is not made aware of your no weapons policy. Say for whatever harmless reason you find out she is armed and call the cops. What crime are you going to try and have her charged with? What specific law has she broken?
I was harsh, and I am tired so it is coming out in my postings, but if you are open to the public and receiving public money should you not respect ALL the civil rights of your clients?
As I asked before, in what other ways do you practice discrimination?
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
Let's see...
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 9:48pm.2nd amendment: We've been over this one.
3rd amendment: We're good here.
4th amendment: If someone wants to store their belongings in our storage space we make sure they aren't storing any contraband violating their right to be free from search and seizure.
5th amendment: I plead the 5th.
The rest on down aren't really applicable.
I will add that if a person is intoxicated, high, or in possession of alcohol or drugs we ask them to leave, I think that would be an infringement on their pursuit of happiness, and perhaps even their life and their liberty.
Urg
Submitted by security_six on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 10:11pm.What requirements do you have in order to receive public monies? Also you did not answer my question as to what laws a lawfully armed client would be breaking and what you would have OPD charge them with.
I find it morally repugnant that you would restrict the rights of your clients the way you do.
I am not so sure search and siezure applies to private individuals and organizations. If you had a cop for instance taking posession of a person's goods for storage then they would apply.
So you would not serve someone if they had a religious belief that you considered racist?
Essentially you are trying to compell your clients through withholding of services into fitting into a certain mold? If a person is physically disruptive, i.e., intoxicated or verbally combative there should be no problem removing them. However if they are lawfully and peaceably armed, why should you worry? It is the unlawfully and unpeaceably armed who are the problem, and a mere piece of paper will not stop them. You only restrict some of the neediest people from protecting themselves from predators.
At the very least you should provide a lockbox for those inclined to be lawfully armed... And what do you consider a weapon? A lot of street people carry knives of one form or another, and with good reason, it is an invaluable tool. I would question most people using them as a weapon. So are knives ok? What about leatherman style tools?
Or a person's fists?
It is not the presence of a weapon that is a danger, but rather the demeanor of the person carrying it.
Unless of course you don't trust any of your clients...
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
well,
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 10:19pm.I'm not going to entertain what ifs, because you can what if something to death. If people bring in knives or other potential weapons and we don't see them, then there's not much we can do.
Calling the cops on someone is a very last resort for us and would only happen if they refused to leave.
Bread and Roses is a safe place where our guests come to get services, relax, and enjoy a pleasant, friendly, and welcoming environment.
Ahh...
Submitted by security_six on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 10:29pm.That of course is the reason behind concealed weapons, you can't see them you can't complain about them. I CC on the bus even though I have recieved acknowledgement from IT that OC is legal on transit. The point I have always tried to make is open or concealed you or nobody else has anything to fear from any peaceable citizen carrying a weapon. Rules and laws only disarm those very same peaceable people who are not the risk. At any rate it doesn't sound to me like a totally welcoming enviorment. I was in JavaFlow Coffee one day and was open carrying (which the management not only doesn't mind they get a kick out of it) and an individual whom I had seen on the bus and outside of B&R approached me and asked questions about acquiring a concealed carry license, gun laws, etc... He was interested in being armed for his own protection, but only legally so. He is the kind of person I would not worry about. It is those who would disregard the law I would be worried about.
Also you didn't tell me what requirments you have to meet to recieve public funds, at least in regards to respecting your client's civil rights and what not. Remeber, the Federal Government is still arguing if gun ownership is an individual right, but this state is VERY clear that it is.
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
I think I'll consult my attorney before answering your question.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 10:52pm.Good answer...
Submitted by security_six on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 10:56pm.:-)
Unless someone is 100% on foot 100% of the time, they need a concealed weapons permit just to carry a loaded gun on any vehicle. Discrete screening for CPL's would probably do the trick.
Anyway see my last post.
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
Rob,Phil...
Submitted by security_six on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 10:53pm.I got rather passionate here... I think both of you are totally out of line and violating your client's rights... But you also do Good Things in this community. I do not believe one balances out the other, but I withdraw my impulsive statement of not wanting to support your agencies. I do wish you would reconsider the policies in place in light of the law and a client's basic civil rights. Don't ask don't tell and all that jazz. The kooks and criminals will do as they please anyway... Please don't add to the danger an already at risk group faces. It may not be an issue now or in the past, but someday someone who really needs the protection may feel unwelcome and put into greater risk.
At any rate, as I say I withdraw my statement of non support. I tend to rotate my charitable dollars through the community and I have given mainly to the food bank, plus worked to raise money for them through my job. So it is about time I start giving to another organization.
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
Funding aside
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 11:01pm.I think you've got it.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 11:04pm.True
Submitted by security_six on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 11:23pm.However I think the funding may play an issue, plus the fact they are open to the public may put them on a different level. I am really curious about the funding issue though... Anway now I've hijacked my own post! :-)
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
I was under the impression that colleges were exempt from the
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:07pm.carry rule. Was I wrong here? What does state law have to say on the subject?
Rick- You seem pretty hostile. I'm sure that more than one student has carried a concealed handgun on your campus, possibly in your class.
K-12
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:11pm.Is exempt, excepting when picking pp or dropping off a student. The OPD's training directive on open carry lists all the off limit places to carry, OC or CC as they are treated the same under the law.
State law allows colleges to enact their own rules, but I don't believe it specifically addresses carry of firearms. Individual colleges usually prohibit their students from carrying.... right after making some sort of statement about how students have the same rights as anyone else or that their constitutional rights are protected.
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
Well then
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:14pm.keep it under cover and don't talk about it, or at least that would be my course of action. There are a few stores that don't allow it either. What they don't know won't hurt them.
Rick- I'm tempted to take one of your classes now :)
I CC
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:21pm.A lot more than I may have lead people to believe. And don't worry about breaking a WAC. I think jay walking is probably a greater offense than violating a WAC.
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
I'm sorry it sounds hostile...
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:13pm....to hear an opinion you don't agree with.
Handguns are machines designed to allow one human to kill another very efficiently. They don't belong in civil society, much less in a classroom.
I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
This sounds hostile as well
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:16pm.You are just on a roll tonight Rick. Maybe you need that mental evaluation that you and the other docents so kindly suggested for me?
EDIT: Sorry, if I remembe right it was "anger management", not mental eval, my bad.
Which bit?
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:20pm.Just curious.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
ok
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:34pm.I'm sorry it sounds hostile......to hear an opinion you don't agree with.
Obvious sarcasm, you aren't sorry. You also are trying to tell me why I believe it to be hostile.
I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings.
Again, sarcasm, plus pointing out that it "hurts your feelings.". I'd say that was thrown in there as a hostile little jab.
...I'd immediately eject any student with a firearm due to violation of the social contract.
C'mon, really you'd eject them? And this doesn't sound hostile to you because....?
Really Rick, considering what a safe city we live in, I can't imagine why you have such a big problem with firearms in your classroom. You are in Olympia, you are safe, why all the energy put into this?
I'm with Rick on that one
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:38pm.So Jim
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:41pm.Concealed?
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:48pm.The only reason I would OC on a campus would be to challenge someone like Rick prior to a lawsuit. Even then I may not OC, but just wear a shirt saying "I am lawfully carrying a firearm" or something like that. If someone is CCing, how are you going to know?
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
Actually,...
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:41pm....not sarcastic. Maybe some thin skin there?
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
I don't believe you
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:48pm.There I said it.
First, my feelings weren't hurt, you either were going for sarcasm, or assumed already that I had thin skin. I believe the former. Second, you assume that the reason someone might think your comment is hostile is because you simply disagree with them. Who's mind are you trying to make up here? Plus, you didn't address the third example, which happens to be the one that started it all.
You could have just let it go, and watched the post fade into olyblog oblivion (pretty likely) but instead you had to come on and show that you were a big, bad teacher who gets to call the shots. It sounded pretty hostile to me, and I think you are trying to cover your tracks now.
EDIT: PLUS, your last comment: Maybe some thin skin there? Are you trying to ask me if I have some thin skin (doubt it) or are you trying to poke at me again, because I believe some of the things you have said have some hostile intent behind them? I'm placing my money on the last one.
Rick
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:18pm.I said your dismissive tone and insistance I should get my own blog page when I posted about the JPX protector and Guardian Angel non lethal pepper spray devices was offensive, not your opinion.
I can think of a classroom in Virginia where a handgun in the hands of a student or teacher would have been very welcome.
You are not hurting my feelings here Rick, just making me shake my head and wonder if you have ever called a cop and relied upon the services of a person wearing a handgun?
I hear England has outlawed handguns. You could move there and (1) Hope you don't become another statistic in their growing crime waive and (2) Hope that if you have to call a cop they arrive in a timely manner instead of waiting until it is "safe"for an officer to arrive.
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
So sensitive!
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:22pm.Who knew?
Why exactly is it hostile to suggest that OlyBlog isn't such a great place for gun central?
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
I think all you can do is just say it and then move on
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:24pm.But it keeps returning.
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:26pm.I didn't start OlyBlog to be a meet up joint for the local militia.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Ooooh
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:30pm.I didn't start OlyBlog to be a meet up joint for the local militia.
I hadn't thought of that one....great idea.
LOL
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:33pm.It already is. This from the state constitution. Anyone liable for call up is the unorganized militia.
MILITIA
SECTION 1 WHO LIABLE TO MILITARY DUTY. All able-bodied male citizens of this state between the ages of eighteen (18) and forty-five (45) years except such as are exempt by laws of the United States or by the laws of this state, shall be liable to military duty.
SECTION 2 ORGANIZATION - DISCIPLINE - OFFICERS - POWER TO CALL OUT. The legislature shall provide by law for organizing and disciplining the militia in such manner as it may deem expedient, not incompatible with the Constitution and laws of the United States. Officers of the militia shall be elected or appointed in such manner as the legislature shall from time to time direct and shall be commissioned by the governor. The governor shall have power to call forth the militia to execute the laws of the state to suppress insurrections and repel invasions.
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
Given the history
Submitted by Phil Owen on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 11:10am.of how state militia's have been used, I'm more likely to have the militia sent to kill me than to recruit me. I'm not too interested in being identified as "unorganized militia".
The Canaanite's Call
But you did start it for the
Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:32pm.I couldn't agree more
Submitted by enpen on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 10:47pm.This is why I'm involved with this project.
I feel your pain
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:36pm.+1
Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:37pm.+1
That was never my intent
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:39pm.I have always posted an image more to compliment the post than anything else.
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
Links, baby, Links!
Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:40pm.I'd have to agree with Gugliemo on that.
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 8:28pm.I wsa under the impression...
Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 7:22pm.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
Step away from the bong
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:29pm.And nobody gets hurt! :-)
I have continually maintained that you were hostile by calling a thread about pepper spray "gun porn"
Are you trying to bait me into another argument so you can kick me off the blog again?
Olyblog is a great place for anything of local interest. I see more people taking interest in the pepper spray conversation than demanding it go somewhere else.
You know perfectly well I keep nearly every gun post of mine local. So if there is "gun central" it may be that there is more interest in guns than you would like to believe. Washington State has more concealed weapons permits issued per capita than any other state on the pacific coast. This should be telling. About 5% of washington citizens have a CPL. So why is it hard to grasp that there is local interest.
I challenge you to join us for the spring target shoot that is being discussed. Unless of course you are not open to different and diverse views.
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
I appreciate...
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:48pm....when you make the local posts. I think I've expressed that. But I don't want to see PICTURES of GIANT GUNS on the blog every other post. I believe I represent the wider OlyBlog community when I say that. No hostility. Just the straight stuff.
If you'd like another place to do that, I'd be glad to help you set that up.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Aarraagghh...
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:54pm.Okay off the top of my head, recently I posted a picture of a WWII soviet rifle, as part of a thread about meeting other olyblogger's with gun interests for a target shoot. Since I intend to bring this relic I put a picture up. Now anyone with a couple of working brain cells should figure there may be evil horrible pictures of guns.
Today I posted an image of a pepper spray device that may resemble a gun, but clearly isn't.
Basically I try and keep my pictures local and on topic as well. If I had a camera everyone would have seen a pic of me in my open carry getup, and probably some interior shots of my sailboat, complete with the onboard gun collection...
I will continue to post gun pics where local and appropriate to the conversation. Anyway this thread has gotten pretty hijacked, but I really don't mind.
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
OOOOOO,
Submitted by JT on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:26pm.Technically inaccurate!!!
"Handguns are machines designed to allow one human to kill another very efficiently."
More correctly,
"Handguns are tools/machines that can be used by one human to kill another with some efficiency."
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
I think by banning gun talk
Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:36pm.I think by banning gun talk you open yourself up to other topics being banned. I have a problem with ISM posts and PMR posts. Am I allowed to suggest the topics go elsewhere? I hope not. I mean, I am a member of Olyblog just like you, Rick. And don't even tell me PMR is about building community. I'll show you proof to the contrary right here on the blog.
I would love to see a different approach to the gun banishment on Olyblog. With all due respect to Larry =), just ignore it. You simply fuel the fire. Let the post go, man.
And, S6, Norm, JT, etc. in the interest of compromise, could we start providing links rather than pictures? I'm sure Nat would appreciate it, too!
Safety in Olympia is as sure as the next morning. No certainty. I don't buy the safety argument at all - it doesn't pass the laugh test.
Sure
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:36pm.I'll quit posting pictures if there is never another picture from the past or any other future protest against the war in Iraq. Besides I have not posted a picture today of a firearm.
Seriously, people are free not to look. It's not too hard to figure out if a post of mine will contain a gun pic.
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
It's a start - although I
Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:38pm.Good idea EG
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:40pm.Who's talking about banning?
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:55pm.I think we're on to something, though.
It just makes you gun folks so uncomfortable that I (or any docent) could boot you off the blog. Even despite all the evidence to the contrary, you just hate that.
Well, now you have a little bit of insight into what I'm talking about when I describe having a conversation with someone who's packing. Doesn't matter how many times you tell me that you don't intend to use it without provocation -- it's just not on.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
But Rick
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:57pm.WTF?
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 7:02pm.You've already booted me off the blog. Didn't last. I am uncomfortable with the inherent hypocrisy of deciding certain topics may or may not be off limits. And that has nothing to do with how you may feel while talking to someone packing. Just annoyance that this supposedly diverse and open community would want to ban an upopular topic.
Strangely enough I actually believe this is a community forum. I'll call BS when I think I see it, and don't split any hairs when I disagree with someone, but I won't call for banning a topic.
I think you are grasping at straws here Rick. Desperate to prove a point, and later on you will come out and say you were trying to make a point about some sort of behavior or whatever excuse you will come up with to justify and incoherent and unjust attack.
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
Again,
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 7:07pm.Who's said anything about banning?
All I've done is challenge your ideas, and suggest that OlyBlog might not be the right place for your club. I don't get to decide that, and I've never represented otherwise.
You were booted before for bad behavior. You can look it up if you forgot.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
I remember
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 7:13pm.And I also remember some of your behavior wasn't up to the highest standards...
Perhpas though you will tell me which of these posts do not belong on Olyblog?
My spring shoot thread, my pepper spray thread, or this one?
And while you think Olyblog may not be the place for local people with an interest in local events who happen to be gun owners (or in my case making local events because I am a gun owner) do you think this community would be richer or poorer or the same without a dedicated group of people espousing and defending an unpopular cause?
Guess what Rick, we're all in the same boat on this. Defending rights is defending rights. You cannot afford to sacrifice any. Either this is a good place for ALL aspects of the group of people who make up Olympia, or it is for almost everyone. Who else would you care to exclude in the name of community?
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
I hope you'll stick around...
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 7:29pm....and keep the stuff local. I also hope you'll stop with the in-your-face attitude about the guns.
Guns are like smoking. Do smokers have rights? Sure. Do non-smokers have rights? Also, yes. Do smoker's rights trump non-smoker's rights? Nope. Why? Because smoking is dangerous. Smokers don't have the right to endanger others.
I believe we're heading in exactly the same direction with guns. They are hazardous, and they endanger all people in the environment. They increase the likelihood of violence across the board. It's a public health issue at bottom. Nothing personal about it.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Rick
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 7:42pm.Your analogy is flawed. The state constitution specifically protects the right to bear arms for personal defense. By definition a law abiding citizen is not a danger to society, therefore one should not worry about them. Furthermore by definition a criminal or someone intending to commit a criminal act is not hampered by laws.
My gun is only a danger to those who would attempt to cause harm to me or others around me. And if someone is committing an act that legally justifies armed defense should I lay down and die, or should I fight back?
Lawful private gun ownership is no more a public health problem than students at TESC, and given the recent protests, I could make an argument that parts of TESC are a public health problem.
I actually want to take some classes at TESC or SPSCC but will not go to a place where I am in greater risk of harm. If I cannot resist someone bent on causing bodily harm with any legal means at my disposal, I do not want to be there.
I don't think you and I are going to see eye to eye on this subject, but I would ask you find a history teacher and ask about common law and it's roots in American law, and what it had to say about freemen bearing arms. I would also ask that you consider how the state consitution very carefully protects the bearing of arms, not only for personal but PUBLIC defense.
And then I want you to tell me how me, or Norm or JT or anyone else who lawfully carries a gun is a threat to the public order? I have committed no crimes, and killed no person, nor have I had my weapon used in a crime. What threat am I? What threat is any law abiding citizen aware of the awesome rights and responsibilities of bearing arms?
What would your reaction be to someone who used a lawfully carried gun to safe your life? Or to stop a rapist at TESC? Or??? What would your reaction be if someone could have stopped something like that but didn't because you object to guns?
Take the guns from criminals, not people like me.
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
Ah, are you going to hide
Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 7:43pm.Ah, are you going to hide behind your effort to get gun talk off Olyblog? Don't use the distraction of splitting hairs to unveil your master plan, Rick. OK, maybe it's not a master plan but if you aren't interested in curbing gun talk, then why not stop being an asshat?
I think you'd end up on the losing end of booting anyone off the blog for gun talk, sorry to say.
I don't understand...
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 7:47pm....what you're saying here.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Really
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:36pm.hmm
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 7:29pm.Rick's right. There is too much gun stuff on the blog. Rick has offered to provide a service that would cost you money anywhere else in the form of help setting up your own blog. Then you could post anything you wanted, and put teasers on Olyblog linking to it. Olyblog is not a gun blog, or a protest blog, or a cop blog, or an environmental blog. It's a community blog, for discussion of local issues and events and for networking on community projects as well as being a place for citizen journalism to take place.
The gun IS scaring people away from OlyBlog and I'm tired of it. S6, I think you know that you make people uncomfortable and you kind of enjoy it. Please stop. Let Rick help you create an OlyGuns blog and then post your content there, and link to it from OlyBlog. I think the same thing would be said to anyone who posted as much about another topic as you do about guns, especially if the topic made people uncomfortable. You seem to have the desire and the energy to have your own blog on this subject and it would probably help with your networking efforts on the open carry issue to have a place online focused on the issue here in Oly.
Typical
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 7:46pm.You think I enjoy seeing people having a negative reaction to me? I enjoy that no more than I enjoy any other uncomfortable situation. There are a lot of uncomfortable things in this world, I am just one more to some people.
I don't like seeing the guys released from prison in Shelton hanging around the transit center every monday morning, it makes me uncomfortable. I don't like seeing very large dogs, it makes me uncomfortable. I don't like seeing rowdy groups of youths in the park at night, it makes me uncomfortable.
I could go on and on and on but I won't
I am exercising my rights just as much as those people I mentioned above are.
Yeah, I really get off on having some tatooed cop pull a gun on me by Bayview. Gotcha.
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
The Gun IS Scaring People Away From Olyblog Sentence
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 8:25pm.reminds me of...
“X is true because there is no proof that X is false.”
I am a wobbly at heart. Always have been. Think I always will be. - Olyblogger "Mike"
I thought that was a
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 9:18pm.Give Me Credit!
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 9:32pm.I have been trying to come up with ways to care!
I guess I was just trying to figure out if that sentence was a true statement or not because I haven't seen any evidence of anybody being scared away. It's still the same posters, different day!
I am a wobbly at heart. Always have been. Think I always will be. - Olyblogger "Mike"
Onry...
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 9:31pm.Go through the pages and count the number of blogs started by women. I did. Not many anymore.
There is a phenomena going on here that I've watched for years on AOL's political chats. There are two sides "From The Right" and "From The Left" - no real question as to what is happening there, right?
From The Left get's hammered by Right Wingers that want to just argue and spew. From The Right, rarely gets a leftie pulling the same routine. I've been observing this for about 7 years, so it's nothing new. The other part of this is the Atheist chat that get's hammered by religious people. I'm not sure what the facination is with these people having to disrupt civil conversation, but they certainly seem to enjoy it.
Now, AOL has a great ignore feature that allows you to eliminate the offending posts, thus the chat can remain tolerable. For the most part, I'm choosing to ignore these posts, by not posting.
Ya know
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 9:34pm.This thread has gotten WAY off subject...
As for everything else you said, I think there is nothing at all to keep anyone from posting what what they want to. Except their own misconceptions, or ideals.
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
So You're Saying
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 9:36pm.You don't think women are posting because of the gun postings? I have to respectfully disagree. Women are posting. Maybe not on the gun topics but they are posting.
I think the men just overwhelm the women in numbers around here and men tend to post men things & women tend to post women things.
I personally don't care to get much involved in the whold PMR, Rachel Corrie, protest the war, impeach Cheney & Bush and Bush bashing topics around here. Discuss the weather, things going on in the community, plays, books, restaurants, movies, etc and I'll likely jump in!
I am a wobbly at heart. Always have been. Think I always will be. - Olyblogger "Mike"
It used to be okay to tell
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 8:56am.Get your facts straight.
Submitted by Rick on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 9:00am.We're not talking about an oppressed minority here. Bringing that into the discussion smacks of intellectual dishonesty.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
I think the gun pictures...
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 8:39pm....and they are usually really big...should be filtered or moderated. Pictures of guns feel threatening to me, at a gut level. Talking about gun rights is totally fine with me.
I tend to
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 8:42pm.Get my images from other webpages, and really can't help the resolution. Why should a gun picture be any different from any other picture? They can't hurt you, you know.
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
I'm not sure why security_6...
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 8:56pm....they just do.
I like you as a person and have learned a lot about OC (etc.) from you. To me though, a bunch of handgun pictures are a turn-off and I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels like this. Posting pictures of handguns...so often...may not be getting you the attention that you desire.
???
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/29/2008 - 8:59pm.Today I posted a picture of a pepper spray device, a couple of days ago I