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Rob.
Submitted by paisleyboxers on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 4:12pm.Friendblog: None are known to exist since bloggers don't have friends.
Because Doug accepted $700
Submitted by Ehver Green on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 4:17pm.Because Doug accepted $700 from Triway Enterprises, $500 from Tri Vo himself (Triway owner), and $50 from Jeanette Hawkins (Triway employee), during the 2007 mayoral campaign, Rob believes Doug has created a conflict of interest. I don't buy it and voted No.
If Doug were a potential sub to a Triway project I could see it. He's not. He's a state employee with no financial gain.
How many times did you vote no? :)
Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 4:42pm.Just once - I have cleared
Submitted by Ehver Green on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 5:22pm.Just once - I haven't cleared my cookies -- yet!
This is a small amount of money
Submitted by paisleyboxers on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 5:01pm.Unless the obvious blind spot I'm missing is that no one will buy the condos.. and they will be sit eating up space when affordable housing could have been there instead... but well see that when that happens.
Friendblog: None are known to exist since bloggers don't have friends.
There's also the issue of obstructed views on the waterfront.
Submitted by jlw on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 5:04pm.Is Public Spaces an idea...
Submitted by paisleyboxers on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 5:16pm.I constantly misinterpret the word usage here.
Friendblog: None are known to exist since bloggers don't have friends.
You misinterpret a lot of things, everywhere.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 5:19pm.Thank you for clarifying
Submitted by paisleyboxers on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 5:22pm.Friendblog: None are known to exist since bloggers don't have friends.
Sorry, I can't help it, you bring out the best in me.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 5:27pm.public space...
Submitted by einmaleins on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 6:17pm.... I'm also a little confused by the constant call for more public space.
Olympia Downtown has so much space and so little people actually using it.
Now if all the sidewalks and parks, the boardwalk and the Capitol Lake were constantly overcrowded I would understand that notion, but since moving here form Seattle I'm saddened that on most times I'm around town - and I'm there every day I mostly am by myself.
anyway, i don't divert that thread, just my two cents.
mathias
einmaleins
I see the downtown public space used a lot
Submitted by jlw on Fri, 03/21/2008 - 7:31am.Part of the reason the isthmus is zoned as it is, with a height restriction, is so that the view from the Capitol Campus will not be obstructed. And if you've ever looked toward the water from the Capitol area, you'll see that it is a beautiful view, with one ugly eyesore in the way. Many people visit the Capitol campus to work, voice their political opinions, or just as tourists. All of those people will be affected by the way the City Council decides to use the space on the isthmus. I would hate to see the view from the Capitol destroyed for the sake of Triway's profits.
no, no - you're right.
Submitted by einmaleins on Fri, 03/21/2008 - 9:18am.urban garden & food forest demo
Submitted by chad360 on Fri, 03/21/2008 - 10:06am.Wow, that was a really insulting remark
Submitted by jlw on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 5:38pm.If five years from now, Doug is a principal in Triway
Submitted by Mike on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 6:11pm.or has received a long string of donations, maybe a lucrative consulting contract or two from Triway, how would that look to you? Would that sort of thing pass the smell test?
Also, is Doug a State employee? I was thinking maybe City employee, if employee at all in his elected capacity.
Mah day job.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 6:13pm....which he shouldn't quit...
Submitted by Ehver Green on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 6:16pm.I thought it was funny.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 6:19pm."Bitter"?
Submitted by jlw on Fri, 03/21/2008 - 7:23am.There's no conflict of
Submitted by Ehver Green on Fri, 03/21/2008 - 10:11am.I see a potential conflict of interest
Submitted by jlw on Fri, 03/21/2008 - 11:27am.I haven't seen anyone reference the fact that this is not a new issue. The citizens of Olympia successfully fought off an attempt to change zoning of this waterfront area in 2002. Obviously, with the composition of the City Council having changed to a more development-friendly group, Triway sees more opportunity than in the past. To find out more about developers' attempts to change zoning on the isthmus, as well as Doug Mah's past campaign contributors, see this article.
Thanks, Rob, for the clarification
Submitted by Mike on Fri, 03/21/2008 - 8:11am.So what...
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 4:23pm....he can't let him self get blown off course by the constantly changing ups and downs of public opinion...
hee hee.
depends...
Submitted by enpen on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 4:52pm.What are the explicit rules for recusal for an Olympia City Council member?
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
Nothing Defined
Submitted by Ehver Green on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 4:58pm.Yeah
Submitted by enpen on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 11:01pm.I can't find anything either. No on recusal.
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
conflict of interest / polls
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 4:57pm.I sincerely hope for a great turnout at Saturday's hearing over the building proposal. I am sincerely hoping for a good OlyBlogging of the public comment hearing (as I will not be able to make it to the hearing.)
Also, it appears that the polling system allows people to vote twice, once while logged in (based on user identity), and once while logged out (based on IP address).
Lastly, nice work on the polls recently, Rob.
Aldo Leopold: "We abuse land because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us. When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect."
Heck, no.
Submitted by Mike on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 5:05pm.Great comment, Mike.
Submitted by Ehver Green on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 5:06pm.serious/sarcasm
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 5:08pm.I think more wry than sarcastic
Submitted by Mike on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 6:07pm.but the mechanics and economics of elections and the free market present everywhere these days and my pitch regarding the lack of concern about conflicts is very mainstream, even if I don't subscribe to it in a meaningful way.
Plausible deniability has become an ethical standard. For example, in Nixon's day when the watergate burglars were arrested, Nixon and his folks started gathering cash, they may have even called it hush money. That's pretty unsophisticated when compared to the way the Bush/Cheney people raised millions of dollars openly for a legal defense fund for Scooter Libby when he broke the law. Plausible deniability is the new standard. It's not much of a standard, but there it is.
Some of my take on this kind of stuff is that rather than push back and instititutionalize the low standard through conflictual impasse, it may make more sense to push the low standard of plausible deniability as a sufficient standard and wait for the mainstream and conservative folks to say, hey, we can do better than that, can't we? I think we can, but maybe it's time for the conservatives, the free marketeers to take the lead and say, hey, we should do better than that.
Cool
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 5:29pm.EG - you're scaring me, bud
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 6:06pm.That's such a strong word.
Submitted by Ehver Green on Fri, 03/21/2008 - 12:15am.That's such a strong word. What does it really mean? =)
I've been educated on occasion here. Learned some things I wouldn't have in my daily encounters. Nothing wrong with that.
I get the public disclosure concerns. We're not in some major city where mobsters are taking over our city, corrupting our local government. We're talking about some housing that will not be affordable by all. And? How is this different than the far end of Cooper Point? How about Carolyn by Olympia High School? I don't understand why the city can't attract people with money who want to live downtown. I don't get it. Why would they not be welcome? No one is looking to crush you. It's diversity and downtown could use a shot in the arm. I'd love to see a destination store downtown (nod to Doug). Something that can bring in foot traffic so our downtown gems have a better chance of staying in business.
I don't know if they'll come from Silicon Valley or Maple Valley or Cooper Point. I would ask those who say there's no market to talk to a realtor who deals in properties such as these. Tri Vo wouldn't invest this money without being almost certain, can't account for everything, about its success. I'll bet a round at The Broho that he's talked with realtors and potential tenants. The realtors have told him there's a market. The buyer's have said they'll spend their money.
worries
Submitted by enpen on Fri, 03/21/2008 - 12:22am.Do you have any concerns about Tri Vo's development track record in Olympia?
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
Damn it!
Submitted by Ehver Green on Fri, 03/21/2008 - 12:54am.that is so annoying
Submitted by Mike on Fri, 03/21/2008 - 8:13am.It's Alright, Mah (I'm Only Bleeding)
Submitted by Crenshaw Sepulveda on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 7:02pm.We all know this will pass, public opinion means nothing when the City Council gets to play with the big time developers. Whether or not the property gets developed, the developer that sits on it with the new height limits stands to make a pile of money. Once the property is developed it can never be returned to its original use. I'm for a public space, no question about it. And could a couple of benches hurt, come on, people got to sit down, maybe eat a little lunch. People, this is a done deal.I just can't believe Mah will allow some fat cat developer to make millions with a paltry $700 contribution. Maybe Mah is expecting a very nice deal on one of those fancy condos. Take a good look at downtown Olympia and kiss her tenderly goodbye. This is not class warfare, the poorer classes don't even have a chance. This is an out right slaughter.
"I would make it impossible for the covetous and avaricious to utterly impoverish the poor. The rich can take care of themselves."
^@^
I call hippie jargon!
Submitted by paisleyboxers on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 7:21pm.Friendblog: None are known to exist since bloggers don't have friends.
Actually....
Submitted by Zero_One on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 9:32pm.Nice play on...
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 9:37pm....Bobby D.
Goodness
Submitted by DJW on Thu, 03/20/2008 - 7:22pm.I would so love to play the devils advocate right now. Or better yet, what if.......
If a witch hunt is hyperlocal
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Fri, 03/21/2008 - 10:31am.I'll condemn myself to posting things that risk being removed, such as privacy invasions of national candidates.
If someone is intimating that Doug Mah sold out to Tri Vo for $1,200 dollars, I'd have to say that Doug didn't negotiate very well, considering how much Vo stands to make on such a project.
This smacks of as much authenticity as Obama being called a racist because he attended a church where someone once made a racial remark.
How about this scenario? Tri Vo wanted to see Doug Mah as Mayor of Olympia because he felt Mah to be the best candidate, thus he supported him?
The current model on these things
Submitted by Mike on Fri, 03/21/2008 - 10:49am.is that the payoff comes later in the form of employment or lucrative contracts. A paper trail regarding the connections is discouraged. Public corruption has made giant strides in avoiding the kind of obvious quid pro quo that accompanies payments previous or contemporaneous with political decisions.
Plausible or even implausible deniability is the current standard. There used to be an ethic about the "appearance of conflict of interest" that prevented plausible or implausible deniability from being an adequate defense regarding public corruption questions.
Why did Tri Vo support Dough Mah?
Submitted by Katherine on Fri, 03/21/2008 - 11:56am.Why did Tri Vo and Triway support Mah and not Hogan?
Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 03/21/2008 - 12:25pm.That said, after hearing from other folks on this, I agree that there is no conflict of interest legally and that Mah doesn't have to recuse himself by law. I do feel that Mr. Mah should be open and honest about this issue when the conversation takes place on Saturday. I hope he shows up.
He'll be there.
Submitted by Ehver Green on Fri, 03/21/2008 - 5:25pm.I just had an image.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 03/21/2008 - 6:33pm.Sorry. What I meant was, how do you know he'll be there?
I had lunch with him
Submitted by Ehver Green on Fri, 03/21/2008 - 6:42pm.That's so interesting.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 03/21/2008 - 7:04pm.A Friend
Submitted by Ehver Green on Fri, 03/21/2008 - 7:28pm.I met Doug when I was researching the registration of http://www.dougmah.com (lots of history there!). We exchanged a few mails then met for lunch. Occasionally we have something in common to talk about so we meet for lunch. It's always an ad hoc meeting.
The purpose of this past lunch was to catch up and I asked him if he'd be willing to do an interview for Olyblog. He said yes and I expect I'll do this within the next couple of weeks.
If you or anybody else here has a question for our Mayor, please PM me and I'll do what I can to include it.
Wow, OK.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 03/21/2008 - 7:58pm.He was not there
Submitted by jlw on Sat, 03/22/2008 - 5:24pm.The first event of the forum was a very slick presentation run by out-of-towners which informed us Olympians how great this project would be for people of all ages and income levels, as well as the environment. Afterward, there were many questions and comments from the audience, most of them showing a high level of skepticism about the project. The group then broke up into smaller groups, where discussions became quite heated at times. Although it's pretty obvious that Triway has the City Council where it wants it, the same can not be said for the public, and it will be interesting to see how this process plays out.
Confused
Submitted by DJW on Fri, 03/21/2008 - 5:23pm.Rob,
What does Doug have to be open and honest about? It's in black and white he accepted a total of $700 from TriWay. Are you expecting him to say I'm making money on the side?
We are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.
Why are you trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill?
Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 03/21/2008 - 6:30pm.I don't think Mah is making money on the side. I never said that. I said that there appears to be a conflict of interest here in my opinion. Then I asked for other people's opinions. I even changed my mind a little after listening to some of the arguments to the contrary.
Yes, I do think he should be open about campaign contributions. I don't see what's wrong with asking him why he makes the decisions he does. Accountability to The People should be a part of holding public office, in my opinion.
Fair enough
Submitted by DJW on Fri, 03/21/2008 - 7:43pm.(I'm going to attempt to submit a statement that isn't full of mistakes. Don't hold your breath.)
Why does he make the decisions he makes? I would think it's pretty evident. He looks at the whole picture, takes into consideration all the factors, listens to any testimony and then votes using his best judgment. Isn't that what all politicians do? (I set myself up for that one!)
I rarely agreed with TJ but I thought he voted using his best judgment, no different than the rest of the council. Not trying to be argumentative but I keep seeing this exchange, "Doug, why did you vote the way you did?" Doug, "Looked at the information and thought it was best for all of the citizens of Olympia."
I think he was the right choice to lead this city after all of the division that had taken place over the last few years. As much as I want Olympia to have that 'small town feel' that I enjoy I realize that in order for it to 'grow' change has to be a part of the equation. Do I want a box store on every corner, probably not but I would hope that more of a tax base comes into the area. My goal is to see every store front filled with goods and people everywhere. I want to see the extra tax revenue to be divided up among city services and needed service related programs for our most vulnerable. I'm tired of hearing that there isn't 'enough money for this or that'. I want to see changes that will benefit us all. I don't see that happening unless the area brings in some 'money' to make money.
Ok, I'll get off my soap-box and quit preaching.