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Submitted by Peter Alden Stroble on Fri, 09/19/2008 - 8:11am.

My testimony at the City Council meeting was polarizing – exactly what I have written out against publicly here in the blogosphere.  Clearly, and as the Olympian noted in their coverage of the hearing, people at the hearing in favor of the rezone did not like what I had to say.  A large number of people confronted me in the lobby to express that they took offense to my testimony, and I tried my best to listen to them.  I also pledged to post my testimony in a public place so that it could be scrutinized in an open and more democratizing way.  So, I am posting this not to direct more attention to my argument, but to clarify it, and ultimately, to try to reconcile it with the community.

I had no intention of offending anyone and I am sorry to those whom I did offend.  Perception and reality can be different things, particularly at a public hearing, and what came out of my mouth wasn’t necessarily what was heard by the attendees of the hearing.  Put another way, language is one thing, the interpretation of rhetoric by an impassioned audience is another.  Perhaps Thad Curtz was right when he questioned whether my “rhetorical enthusiasm” was getting the better of me.  You live and learn; I’ll chalk this one up to experience.

One woman, who handed me a hand-written note immediately after my testimony wrote, “I was literally shaking, thinking you said that "those who turned out have a luxury of time" to devote to the issue.”  Of course, what I actually said was, “I am here to testify that there are many, many citizens of Olympia who do not have the luxury of time simply to support the normal course of progress".  My comments were intended to acknowledge people absent from the hearing, not imply anything about those that were there.  I take full responsibility for the disconnect and wish I had prefaced this point at the beginning of my argument; not waited until the end, after the damage had been done.  In any case, there was no personal attacking or belittling intended whatsoever.  I hope this is evident in my testimony transcription below.

I do, however, stand firmly behind both my arguments.  Attendees of the hearing may recall that one of the first testifiers said that while he saw lots of "save the waterfront views" lawn signs and "don't wall of the waterfront" lawn signs, he didn't see any "build the condos!" lawn signs.  Of course not!  When has anyone ever heard of citizens putting up yard signs to support development?  By human nature, people are not proactive about promoting development, particularly if it doesn’t directly benefit them.  I supported this argument with what I believe is a very credible essay.

When OLY 2012 first considered this whole issue, we didn't know much about it.  Our first straw vote on the matter was split, 3-3.  We learned about this issue over the course of many months.  We came to understand many of the nuances and tradeoffs of the issue, the two most important of which being: (1) the massive improbability of the big-isthmus-park concept due to cost; and (2) the likelihood of office building alternative if the rezone does not pass.  Yet, neither of these critical points are presented in the "Isthmus Park News" publication used to lure the signatures for the petition drive – only overly-simplistic images of yellow cubes juxtaposed with a tree-lined park.

I have had countless conversations with people in the community who are much, much more intelligent than I, yet who do not understand these finer points.  And it's not because they're not smart enough to; it's because not everyone in the community takes the time to understand land use and zoning complexities like those of us who care enough to show up at a hearing do.  My experience has been that once you bring these finer points to the table - which I think our group, OLY 2012, has done very thoroughly - people start to look at the issue in a much more critical light.

With that, below is the full transcription of my testimony for anyone who cares enough to critique it.  I hope that even if you disagree with it, you can respect it.  And to all those who took offense to my oration of it, I hope there are no hard feelings.

PAS

 

»

My Testimony Transcription:

My name is Peter Stroble and I am a member of OLY 2012. I believe strongly in Olympia’s past-due need for density and smart growth.  I believe strongly that it’s high time for Olympia to live-up to its faltering reputation as a progressive, globally-minded and environmentally-conscious community. And I believe strongly that the isthmus rezone will be a huge first step in addressing these problems and accomplishing our comp plan goals.

We have submitted to each of you our position paper on this rezone, and I hope you’ve had a chance to read it.  But it fails to address one thing, which I would like to touch upon tonight.  In a recently published essay, Harvard professor Matthew J. Kiefer argued that the public process for land use issues in America inevitably attracts those opposed to development, and that those who are in favor of development, or more commonly, those who are indifferent to development, by human nature, tend to stay out of it.  “Public hearings,” he wrote, “become forums for those who oppose development; in an increasingly fragmented culture they are what pass for community.”

Tonight, my impression is that the composition of people in this room are far from a representative cross-section of our community.  Most of my friends and acquaintances see the benefits of this rezone for the community as a whole.  But most are not here tonight.  Why?  Because they are at home with their families struggling to balance the demands of busy lives in the twenty-first century.  I am here to testify that there are many, many citizens of Olympia that do not have the luxury of time to show up simply to support the normal course of progress.

The petitioners will tell you differently, but I’ve seen how they work.  What the petitioners are doing is portraying an improbable, if not highly inaccurate, illustration of what this decision is really about.  I see the allure of that air-brushed image showing the isthmus as a park, and the hideousness of the image of the isthmus covered in yellow cubes evoking the dilapidating Tumwater brewery.   If I were told, without knowing anything, that this rezone decision was as black and white at the juxtaposition of those two images I would sign that petition in a heartbeat. 

In watching the petitioners do their work at the Farmer’s Market on Sunday, it looked to me that on average, it took about 20 seconds to convince someone to sign it.  It took our group a couple of months to learn enough about this issue to reach our position, which we backed-up with 10 pages of research, analysis, and insight.   This is precisely why zoning and land use decisions should not be decided by referendum; they should be decided by leaders such as yourselves who have taken the time to thoroughly understand all of the nuances and tradeoffs of the matter at hand.

It is time for you to face what is hardest about being in politics – making a seemingly unpopular decision for the benefit of the community.  In the end, your true constituency – even those in opposition here tonight – will reward you for it.

»

I wasn't at home...

...I was at my place of work, trying to figure out how to continue to profitably operate my business in downtown Olympia, which employs more than just myself. The thought that Stroble has anything to apologize for staggers and disappoints me. The Oly 2012 position paper was and is the only meaningfully truthful, factual, and balanced piece of third-party analysis I've read and I think what Stroble said at the hearing is beyond spot-on. In particular, his portrayal of the obscenely misleading petition drive deserves great attention. Kudos and thanks to him for helping represent what is in my heart and what I, my family, and MANY friends think is best for me, my family, and my company. Given events of the past week, you'd think there'd be some recognition amongst the isthmidiots that spending many tens of millions on buying and maintaining a park with public taxpayer dollars is not only intrinsically wasteful but utterly hallucinogenic given the realities of public and private financing post AIG/Lehman/$700 billion bail out. Someone wanted this to get broader distribution, presumably to shame Stroble into silence. Put this in front of any remotely sentient person in Tacoma or Spokane and be ready to dodge the swift kick to the nads after you explain how important it is for that person and his family to fund this critical, job-producing, infrastructure-bolstering project.
»

Thank you, Sam

Well said.
»

This is not an apology for what I said

This is not an apology for what I said, only how I said it. There will be some people, such as Matthew Green, who don't think my arguments are fair in themselves and/or will claim - through contorting analysis - that my main objective was to "attack personally" those in opposition. Even if Matthew could express the merits of his arguments more clearly than he has below, I would not be swayed by them.

If people are offended by my two arguments, I can offer little.  I know what I said, so does everyone else now, and I stand by it.

»

Meaningfully Truthful

This (the Olympia 2012 position) may be meaningful and truthful to some. But it's not to me.

To me, the proposal represents the worst in representative politics. For example, there is the appearance of rewarding a campaign contributor by enabling a special project. City funds have been utilized to subsidize those who are least in need of public assistance.

The main problem for me with the position of OLY 2012 is the portrayal of the rezone as befitting the interests of the public (mainly in regard to sustainability - but also in regard to trickle-down from increased consumerism.)

People are offended by Peter's testimony because it is an attack. It's an attack on the credibility of those who oppose the rezone and the rezone opposition movement.

The argument basically boils down to saying that those who oppose the rezone are wrong to do so because they don't know better - they don't know the great opportunity that they seek to deny. I just don't buy it.

I can understand that a lot of people are hurting. Building a massive condominium for an unproven South Sound up-class market is not the answer to downtown's slow economics.

Another part of the reason that I take offense is that this is the wrong time in planetary, and human, history to advocate for economic growth. What we need for sustainability is not growth - but to come down to earth, to slow down, to wake-up, to live truly locally. Economic growth is, in my opinion, not compatible with sustainability. Smart Growth, in so far as it advocates sustainable growth, strikes me as a kind of doublethink, which I have already said.

I am also a critic of the "normal course of progress" concept. If this project represents the "normal course of progress," then I don't want Olympia to follow the normal course of progress. Besides, I don't think special interest projects to benefit the upper class quality as the normal course of progress.




»

Bert

Enough with the appearance of a conflict of interest! If you have proof of an actual C of I, show it. If not, STFU about it!

 

»

Proof

That's the problem with COI in situations like these. Almost impossible to prove - unless there have been covert actual bribes (and a witness comes forward) - as opposed to over the table, open and legal, campaign contributions. However, it is also impossible to disprove the appearance of impropriety when a public official makes a decision that favors a campaign contributor. This is all the more especially true in a situation like the Isthmus rezone, where the decision will affect the vested interest of the developer. If the rezone is approved, Triway Enterprises will profit as a result.

Somewhat separately, though very much still related, the proposed Larida Passage is not a public interest project. In fact, it defies the public interest (which is to keep the Isthmus open for all to enjoy, equally.)

So, it's not only COI, it's a double whammy.

I am not going to STFU. No hard feelings though, Laurian.

bert




»

"Isthmidiots"? "Hallucinogenic"?

Nice. A more blatant example of my original point.

And yes, shame is precisely the word. When anyone -- Peter then, you now, some opponents of the rezone too -- resorts to personal attacks, they deserve to be shamed. In fact, the entire community is better if they are shamed, because it helps return the debate to the issues.

»

There is a ray of humor in this bloggorhea...

...by way of Matthew Green lecturing us about how to discuss issues rather than make personal attacks. Not really laughing-with-you funny, more snickering quietly-at-you while reflecting on the electoral clobbering doled out following extraordinarily bad, personal attacking behavior during a curtailed prior visit to the Council, funny. But that's just me.
»

Now Sam you're not telling the whole truth

It was Janette who began the name calling that Matt was eventually punished for. Had she been a man she would never have gotten away with it.

Then again her behavior that fateful night was nothing new. She had been dismissive, condescending and generally rude to constituents and staff as a matter of course all through her city council career. What was new that night was someone had the audacity to call her on it in no uncertain words.

 

»

Play the ball

Not the player.
»

Very nice!

"Tonight, my impression is that the composition of people in this room are far from a representative cross-section of our community.  Most of my friends and acquaintances see the benefits of this rezone for the community as a whole.  But most are not here tonight.  Why?  Because they are at home with their families struggling to balance the demands of busy lives in the twenty-first century."

So true, and what I have intimated in my previous posts about the "vocal minority".  When you are a student or have no JOB, you have the luxury of time that others don't.

Good work!

"RITALIN, so much easier than parenting"

itchyhitch.blogspot.com

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"support the normal course of progress"??????

This language weakens your argument.

What is normal? Some might say building within current zoning is normal.

Progress? Toward what? Developement doesn't automatically equal progress.

It is easy to think that history is "a natural movement in the developement of progress" but a closer examination sometimes shows a "two steps forward and one step back" thing.

To me, a  normal course of progress, looks like developing downtown living in other parts of town - not the area currently under discussion.

 

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Please put Mr. Kiefer's quote in the proper context

It would probably be to your benefit to stop referring to Matthew Kiefer as a Harvard professor when you quote him; you could be accused of inflating his credentials. Mr. Kiefer is a Boston land use attorney, specializing in obtaining public approval for development projects, not an academic. While he has been a guest lecturer at the Harvard School of Design, that is a far cry from serving on the faculty. An attorney such as Mr. Kiefer has a clear interest in discrediting the testimony of people who show up at public hearings to oppose development projects; his statement about the "chronically aggrieved" clearly is directed toward that aim. By erroneously calling him a Harvard professor, you make it sound as if this conclusion may be the result of academic research, which it is not.
»

You are right...

I made the mistake of confusing a Harvard post-graduate class lecturer with a Harvard professor. And yes, he is also a land-use attorney.

»

More disingenuity, Peter.

More disingenuity, Peter. The important point jlw made was not the distinction between lecturer and professor; it was between academic researcher and person with a vested interest.

But you probably know that. You just decided a patronizing attitude, combined with ignoring the real issue, would be rhetorically preferable (most likely because you realize that jlw just skewered the substantive merits of that argument). And you didn't think anyone would be impolitic enough to call you on your attitude.

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No room for factual mistakes

No room for factual mistakes in this posting, no doubt.  I can only eat crow on this one. Honestly though, I don't think there would have been much of a difference in terms of the affect of my argument had I said "harvard class lecturer and land use attorney" instead.  You will probably disagree with that because you can.  Anyway, I wish I had got it exact.

»

Again, you miss or willfully

Again, you miss or willfully ignore the point. You shouldn't have said "lecturer and land use attorney" either. To be honest, you should have said "guy with a vested interest in promoting development" -- or better yet, not made this statement at all.

You tried to pass off some guy's opinion as an authoritative fact, throwing out the reference to Harvard to make it sound more impressive. You tried to pretend that your gut feeling about who is more or less likely to show up at a public hearing is actual verifiable evidence. 

That's not disagreement. That's bull.

»

Boy, you sure do know a lot.

Boy, you sure do know a lot.
»

You just keep on doing what

You just keep on doing what you're doing.  At least you're doing something.
»

A gracious appology.

Perhaps an objective, second reader next time. In grad school, a friend asked me to read his dissertation and mark any passages that were particularly offensive (he couldn’t find any, but had a feeling they were there). There were many.

His dissertation was on the nature of property rights and he frequently relied on analogies that drew uncomfortable parallels between cattle, slaves, and women. The analogies were apt, but they also angered people, which was never his intent. He was blinded by his own "rhetorical exuberance" it seems.

My friend found less colorful analogies that made the same points, but without looking like a chump, alienating his readers, or embarrassing his committee and the school. It was a economics dissertation after all, not a talk radio show.

»

Is it true?

I am opposed to the rezoning, but I was in the category of "with their families struggling to balance the demands of busy lives in the twenty-first century." Is it true that being too busy to attend only affects one side of the argument?
»

Of course not

I was arguing that it's easier to get people in opposition to development to show up than it is to get people in favor of development to do so. That is not to say it is necessarily easy one way or the other.
»

You still need to work on your presentation

Saying it's "easier" is code for "they've got nothing better to do." That'll always get you a "boo hiss" or two and it will show that your apology was insincere. Just stick to the facts. Tell the council why the rezone is a good idea rather than dismissing your fellow citizens. No one knows what the majority of Olympians want. You don't, and neither does the Council or your opposition. Do you really think the council cares about the number of people speaking out against their aims anyway? I don't think that's part of their calculus anymore. I'll happily eat some crow if I'm wrong, but I think this train has already left the station.
»

Interesting interpretation...

...I am clearly far from a rhetorical genius.  Your comment about decoding "easier" is duly noted.

I would have been happy to stick to the facts of the rezone itself if there hadn't been so many people opposed to the rezone claiming they had proof of community concensus.  

It can't be OK for one side to make the argument and not the other, can it?

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My rhetorical genius is hidden in a grain silo in Zila

So you are quite right about that. As for proof of community consensus, nobody has that, and you have every right to say so. I just think you can find better ways to make that point. Happy to provide them…but I’ll need time to get to Zila and back.
»

One more thought

Rhetoric can't be completely scrubbed-down to soft'n cuddly, politically-correct perfection without losing much of its literal meaning. As Matthew has demonstrated below, it won't matter how I phrase my argument, he is going to be offended by it. There is nothing I can do about that short of retracting it altogether.
»

Peter, did you watch me on

Peter, did you watch me on the city council? Was I ever soft'n'cuddly and politically-correct in my language?

Hell no. I was blunt to the point of making people uncomfortable. (That's one reason I'm not on the council anymore.) But I focused on issues, not individuals. I went after people's arguments with facts and logic (brutally sometimes, but always with facts and logic), not after people with insults and derision (veiled or otherwise).

I challenge anyone to watch the video of every council meeting to prove me wrong.

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I have little doubt!

You don't come across as one who pulls any punches.
»

Nobody can prove you wrong

Nobody can prove you wrong but you're right about it costing you a second time around.  Public office isn't ready for the likes of someone like you.
»

Bull

That's not an apology at all. It appears to me that you, Peter, do not really think you need to apologize.

Your argument comes down to: I'm right because I know I'm right, and all those other people are wrong, and the mere fact that all those other people are here proves that they are wrong, and everybody who is not here agrees with me.

To that I say: bull. Nixon had his silent majority. You have your "many citizens of Olympia that do not have the luxury of time to show up". And no matter how you deny it, you made clear that all those people at home with their family are people who "see the benefits of this rezone". That implies both that the opponents who showed up simply had nothing better to do that evening (as opposed to they had other things they could have done but decided that attending the hearing was very important), and further that the opponents are simply incapable of seeing the objective benefits (as opposed to they see it clearly but place different values on the costs and benefits than you do).

In your issue paper, you put forth some actual arguments for the rezone. That is commendable, regardless of whether one agrees with you or not.

But in your testimony, you portrayed yourself as able to make a good decision and everybody who disagrees with you as unable to make a good decision. Apology not accepted.

»

Well...

I think you are putting words into my mouth, Matthew. I don't think I "made clear that all those people at home with their family are people who see the benefits of this rezone." I was referring to "most of my friends and acquaintances", not every last citizen of Olympia absent from the hearing (nor every last one of my friends and acquaintances).  

I do believe that there were more people at home in favor of or indifferent to the rezone than those opposed to it (and I supported my opinion with a recenty-published essay on the matter).  But that's a far cry from saying that those who showed up in opposition "had nothing better to do that evening."  Those are your words, not mine.

Further, I did not state nor imply that those in the audience at the hearing "are simply incapable of seeing the objective benefits."   I was arguing what I believe - that many of the 5,000 or so people who signed the petition did so with an incomplete understanding of the issue.  This is a criticism of the approach taken by the petitioners, not of the people who signed the petition.

I am sorry for offending you, though.  It was not my intention.

»

"Most of my friends and

"Most of my friends and acquaintances see the benefits of this rezone for the community as a whole."

Key phrase: "the benefits" -- not "benefits" or "some benefits" or "more benefits than costs". THE benefits. Implying that there are certain objectively identifiable benefits that we can see, and further implying that our opponents cannot see them (because if they could see them, they would no longer be opponents).

"But most are not here tonight."

Who precisely is not here? "My friends and acquaintances," most of whom are supporters.

"Why? Because they are at home with their families struggling to balance the demands of busy lives in the twenty-first century."

Implying that your friends and acquaintances have busy lives, and further implying that opponents don't.

(If you claim you weren't really implying anything, either you're being disingenuous or you really don't understand rhetoric.)

"I am here to testify that there are many, many citizens of Olympia that do not have the luxury of time to show up simply to support the normal course of progress."

Who precisely are these citizens who "do not have the luxury of time to show up"? Taking this sentence entirely out of context, these "many citizens" could be merely...well, citizens -- citizens who may support the rezone or oppose it or be indifferent to it. But now let's put your statement back into context. You've already mentioned that some supposed academic expert claims that opponents are more likely to show up at hearings than supporters. And just one sentence prior, you said that it is your friends and acquaintances (most of whom you say are supporters) who are not here because they have busy lives. So it is easy to see why many, many people heard you saying that the "many, many citizens" who didn't show up are in support. (Or at least a majority of them are; don't use the strawman argument of claiming a crucial distriction between all and most.)

And you do, in fact, say that you believe most of the people who didn't show up are in support.

So why are you apologizing?

Because you are trying to have it both ways. You realize that your testimony was not an argument for the rezone, but rather an only-slightly-veiled personal attack on your opponents. You're trying to weasel your way out of moral responsibility for the attack without admitting that you attacked.

(For comparison, imagine if someone made a racial joke or homophobic joke, and then said "I had no intention of offending anyone and I am sorry to those whom I did offend." That's a classic non-apology apology.)

Bottom line: You resorted to a personal attack -- my opponents can't see the issue clearly, they haven't fully though it out, they are misleading the public -- rather than attacking their arguments. Don't offer an apology to those who took offense at a statment that you don't think is offensive. Offer an apology to the entire community for making an offensive statement.

As an aside, this is another beauty of public hearings, as opposed to private conversations or even letters to the council that rarely get read publicly: everybody -- not limited to elected officials -- can be held accountable for their statements.

»

I am not apologizing

I am not apoligizing for the arguments I made, I am apologizing if the expression of my arguments was the cause of the offense taken by people at the hearing. I can't help it if my beliefs and arguments themselves offend you, Matthew.  I think they are credible, worthy of discussion (and criticism) and I am glad I said it.  (I just wish I could have said it better). 

»

Your beliefs and arguments

Your beliefs and arguments in favor of the rezone do not offend me. (Note that I have not stated whether I agree or disagree with you on those.)

What offends me is your attempt to discredit your opponents personally.

I am picking on you because this is one of my pet peeves. Many people claim that our local political climate is nice-nice, and that being nice-nice is the best way to govern and make decisions. However, around here the nastiness and insults are merely hidden behind implications, code words, rhetoric, and friendly manners.

On the flip side, opinions expressed boldly and passionately are treated as nasty and inappropriate, even if focused solely on the issue without attacks on people. That is how, for example, Rhenda Strub can get away with saying she doesn't want to hear how people "feel" about the rezone -- as if our feelings about our city and the impact of the rezone on our city are not the fundamental basis for all of our opinions.

You, Peter, contributed to the negative aspects of our local political culture, and I'm calling you on it. Frankly, I don't give a damn whether you actually apologize. I'm really doing this to help create an atmosphere where substantive arguments are given respect and personal attacks are not, regardless of the manner in which either is delivered.

»

I see you heart coming through

I see you heart coming through here, Matthew, but I don't think your criticism of me is on point.  

My testimony certainly did try to discredit the work of the petitioners. Their methods unquestionably deserve scrutiny. I cannot help it if people are personally offended by this criticism, nor if you think this tact is unfair.  I think it is highly relevant and important.

I also argued that the people at the hearing were not a true representative cross-section of the community. You have interpreted my words in a way they were not intended, and many (most?) of the people at the hearing did the same. For that misinterpretation, I take full responsibility.

But I am hear to testify to the blogosphere that there was no “no personal attacking or belittling intended” by my statements whatsoever. You don’t seem to believe the “ingenuousness” of this statement, but there is not much more I can offer you than my word.  I can't make you believe me.

»

All that said, I respect

All that said, I respect that you took a public stand on an issue you care about. Please make every effort to express your arguments -- and yes, even your feelings -- in a way that advances your ideas and challenges other people's ideas, not cuts other people personally.

Another thing (and this is intended as constructive criticism): You spoke on behalf of an organization which claims to be grassroots and membership-driven. To strengthen that claim, I urge you to make that organization more transparent to the public, by disclosing your funding, your meetings, your decision-making process, and even what it means to be a member (besides signing up for a email listserve).

»

Yes - Substance trumps "well-mannered" personal attacks

I strongly share your pet peeve, Matthew.  Thank you for speaking so effectively to this phenomenon in which nastiness and insults are merely hidden behind implications, code words, rhetoric, and friendly manners and opinions expressed boldly and passionately are treated as nasty and inappropriate, even if focused solely on the issue without attacks on people ... and for using this timely and relevant example to make the point.

I support Matthew's call to create an atmosphere where substantive arguments are given respect and personal attacks are not, regardless of the manner in which either is delivered.

And thanks to jlw for  the considerable substance she brings to this discussion and for the boldness with which she delivers it.

»

Yeah, jlw is so nice it

Yeah, jlw is so nice it pains me.  So she figured out this guy wasn't a prof.  Is that to make up for how rude and nasty she is otherwise?  Yeah, if you couldn't tell, I don't care for her.

»

Whose being rude and nasty

Whose being rude and nasty now? I thought we were supposed to play the ball not the player.
»

I thought all the old rules

I thought all the old rules had been thrown out during the last hissyfit power upheaval.
»

rules thrown out

Not as far as I am aware.




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he does not need to

he does not need to apologize for a thing, he did nothing wrong. I guess he is not an intellectual slave to the Olympia establishment...I suppose that is his only crime. How many comments from those not supporting the re-zone would require an apology if held to this same silly standard?
»

Wanting to apologize

is far better than needing to apologize. There is, afteral, nothing admirable about an involuntary saint. Peter appears to have set his own standard, regardles of how others behave. All the better.

The Olympia establishment? That doesn't include the City Council that favors rezoning, and sidewalk and noise ordinances; the Daily Olympian; developers; astrofurf organizations; the ODA; the Economic Development Council; business ownners...? Its a rhetorical question of course.

»

Thumb in our eyes

My impression, from a row back, was that you set out to put a thumb in the eyes of your opponents, and succeeded admirably. You invoked a non-existent Harvard academic to bolster your basic argument, which is that the unwashed should stay home along with the responsible and leave the elites to make the decisions. And offered it all with a strident, defiant, "take that" presentation. Now you offer a non-apology, and say you wish to reconcile your views with the community. Too late. We were there and heard what you said, and how you said it.
»

Matthew Green Is "Picking On You"

not over pet peeves but because that's the only way he's ever known how to communicate. I'm happy to see you're not letting him bait you down to his level. You're an honorable man Mr. Stroble, one who's hand I would gladly shake. Unfortunately, if you're not in the majority in Olympia, no matter how you say something, it's misconstrued, twisted and wrong and it doesn't matter if it's verbally or in print! Continue to hold your head up high and doing things the right and honorable way!
»

Disagreement

It's fair to say that we disagree on a lot of things. Like the cost of the park v. the cost of the "up-class" condominiums, for example.

I will use this as one example of a point we disagree on for purposes of illustration. I believe the costs of going forward with the zoning changes, and actually permitting the construction of the proposed Larida Passage, would be greater than denying the zoning changes and moving forward with a feasibility analysis for creating a park, then figuring out the funding issues. Even if it takes 20 years to get the funding to make a truly awesome park (which I don't think it would), temporary measures could be taken to improve the existing area for a price that wouldn't be prohibitive (in my opinion.)

Then there are the cultural and social costs of the zoning change and building to consider. What social costs would be associated with putting an "up-class" development in a place which so many common folk consider to be sacred?

I am not happy about the City subsidizing this proposal to change the zoning rules. This proposed rezone was initiated by the developer. Zoning changes of this sort ought to be led by public process.




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You believe this based on what?

You can't just believe in something hard enough and make it come true. If that were so, I'd be living in Belize. We're talking facts here, can you provide data that supports your assertion that a park is the cheaper way. Also, a park has nothing to do with Tri Vo's land. There will not be a park on his land, that's been made clear. It'll be condos or offices, nothing is going to change that. The rest of the land, I suppose could and maybe should be turned into a park if they can design it in a way that makes up for it being located on an "island" in between to very busy streets, but again, that has nothing to do with the rezone.
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Cheaper Way

The park would be cheaper, over all, because of the costs to the community that would be incurred from development. The City would likely contribute to the utilities hook-ups for the building, thereby providing subsidy - for one.

I hear you don't believe in the park idea. But there are thousands of Olympia residents who do believe in it. So we will just have to wait and see what the results of the initiative petition will be.

I wish I had more data about why a park would be cheaper. In the long-run, I think it's clear that the park will be more effective in stimulating a lasting sort of sustainable economic activity in the adjacent urban downtown core.

So, it's not necessarily that the park would be much cheaper - it's that it will provide more benefit over the long-term. I know this is a hard sell. But I really do believe it to be true - that a park, a truly special and novel park feature, would revitalize the downtown core, it would stimulate interest and activity. But it would have to be a novel sort of feature. Not just your typical grass and benches. I think a semi or pseudo wilderness would be the best approach. The wilderness concept would provide an impressive contrast juxtaposed with the urban core.

Another reason that a park might be cheaper is if the rezone goes through, and the project gets developed - then falls through - the city will be the likely default, will we have another capitol center on our hands? I realize that this is speculation. But it is not unwarranted, especially considering the extent of problems with other Triway projects around the area.

b




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Can't wait to see this online from Whidbey

I see that there will be another mtg 9/21/08 http://www.ci.olympia.wa.us/newsfaqs/IsthmusRezone.htm before this "normal course of progress" will be shown to the rest of the citizens who love their state capitol. Interesting tact you have taken Peter Alden Stroble. Can't find much on you in an internet search either...hmmm. Only been blogging on Olyblog 9 weeks...hmmm I think it is time to educate out a little wider than the quiet little Oly town about what is being purposed in our state capitol. This is not a simple re-zone folks this is a major change in philosophy. Don't forget that by 2022 most ...given the rate of global warming... of Oly's isthmus may be under water anyway. Let's get some wider coverage/education of the issue. I want to see KOMO 4 talking about this re-zone issue in our capitol city! I do have the luxury of being a plugged in human being who does care about what happens to the landscape and community of our "seat of power"! All the poor serfs (who have lots of time apparently and no children) unite and shut down the smart rich folks who are too busy to show up for democracy...too busy with their comforts? p.s. the community you save may just be your own.
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Some guy's opinion

In defense of Peter's reference to the Kiefer article I would like to say that I actually passed the article on to him and also made the jump from "teaches at Harvard" to Harvard professor. I may have even introduced it to him under that characterization. My mistake.

I think it is unfair and off-base though, to imply that Peter was inflating the man's credentials to support his argument or that Kiefer is so obviously pro-development that his essay should be ignored. In fact, let's look at his credentials, they aren't in need of inflation.

Kiefer may not be a Harvard professor, but he teaches a course on the the development approval process in the Harvard Graduate School of Design, this essay was published in Harvard Design magazine and he was a Loeb Fellow at Harvard. The fellowship by the way "is a unique opportunity to nurture the leadership potential of the most promising men and women in design and other professions related to the built and natural environment." They don't post alumni prior to 1997, so I wasn't able to find what the focus of his research was as a fellow, but I don't think the reference to Harvard is uncalled for and I don't think he lacks actual academic credentials. If this article is no more than his opinion, it is an EXTREMELY well-informed opinion.

I think it is also important to note that the conclusion of his article is actually that "NIMBYs" play an important social function and have helped save many important places through their efforts. He even says if NIMBYism were to disappear, we would miss it more than we currently bemoan it (which depending on which side you stand on is I'm sure debatable). But, he also points out that those opposed to a project tend to monopolize public hearings and be far more vocal than those in favor of the development, which is Peter's point. I think that is a pretty balanced view of the phenomenon and not at all the pro-development propaganda it is being characterized as and worthy of reference in Peter's statement.

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