Storman's and 2 pharmacists sue over WA emergency contraception rules

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Storman's and 2 pharmacists sue over WA emergency contraception rules

Submitted by hrstruggle on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 1:00pm.

Seattle PI: Storman's and 2 pharmacists sue over WA emergency contraception rules

"The plaintiffs in the lawsuit filed Wednesday are pharmacists Rhonda Mesler and Margo Thelen, and Stormans Inc., the owners of Ralph's Thriftway in Olympia . . ."

I think this is a waste of state resources, if you ask me. I think the boycott should be put into high gear!

Especially since they seem to have benefitted financially from the Safeway closing, according to this story:

Stormans ponders legal action over Plan B rule, Olympian

I'm following local, national and international stories on my radio show blog. You can listen to No Talking Heads on Sundays at 5pm on KAOS, 89.3 FM in Olympia.

hrstruggle's blog
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im wondering?

Submitted by bubba z (not verified) on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 1:05pm.

what is the City Council's position on Ralph Thriftway's disregard for women's health and well being?

Wondering

Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 1:16pm.

Is the Plan B medication available at other stores besides Ralph's? C.

Yes

Submitted by hrstruggle on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 1:30pm.

I don't shop for it but from what I've heard from others, it is available elsewhere in Olympia. However, it may not be close-by.

Kevin Storman and his

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 1:36pm.

Kevin Storman and his supporters want women to be forced into pregnancy so that the kids who end up unwanted are sent to orphanages and group homes where Priests and Kiwanis-sponsored "ranch hands" can molest them.

WOW

Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 1:39pm.

That's all, just wow.

They must find it difficult...
Those who have taken authority as truth,
rather than truth as the authority."
- Gerald Massey

Merwyn...

Submitted by Rick on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 7:16pm.

...this is not ok. We're here to talk about ideas, not to hate on others.

When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow

I was just trying to figure

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 10:25pm.

I was just trying to figure out what motivates Kevin, why he makes the choice of passing moral judgment against Emergency Contraception but not against Viagra. I concluded the man was misogynistic, there's hating for you.

Then I tried to figure out why the man wants to insist that unwanted children be conceived. Now, I know with this next line I'm in the minority amongst Olybloggers, but if he was insisting that existing unwanted children be born I'd be on his side. But why does he want them made in the first place? He and his supporters invoke religion; well the church I grew up in is still reeling from the revelation of mass child sexual abuse over decades and across continents. He and his supporters invoke values and I remember what was happening to some of my friends who had the misfortune of living at the OK Boys Ranch (which was ran by the Kiwanis). The community was shocked when the allegations of rape and abuse first made the papers but those of us who went to Reeves knew what was going on for years prior to that.

Sleep, William Blake/All is well/There's a marriage up in heaven tonight/There's a fire in hell
Daniel Amos

This is between the State of

Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 1:38pm.

This is between the State of Washington and Stormans, it's not the city council's job to have an opinion on this.

There are other places where Plan B is available, but that doesn't really matter. The point is that Stormans is breaking the law, and in turn, violating people's right to access to medicine. Arguing that they should go elsewhere is no different than a business being white only and saying that non-whites can go other places.

They must find it difficult...
Those who have taken authority as truth,
rather than truth as the authority."
- Gerald Massey

smoke in your eyes..

Submitted by bubba z (not verified) on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 2:20pm.

It's the City Council's job to have a position on racism..

I was making a logical

Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 2:56pm.

I was making a logical argument not a practical argument.

Not stocking a product, any

Submitted by Ehver Green on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 2:25pm.

Not stocking a product, any product, is racism?

Gimme a break..

Submitted by bubba z (not verified) on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 2:30pm.

Yup, a pharmacy not stocking contraceptives is to women what "white Only" bathrooms were to negro's.

Try...

Submitted by vincent_vega on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 8:20am.

Try sexism. Get it straight.

Uh no..

Submitted by bubba z (not verified) on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 8:28am.

Please read the thread again. Im actually addressing something Rob Richards said, not trying to call this issue "racism"..

A subtle difference, but a difference none the less.

Ummm.....

Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 2:34pm.

Why is it the responsibility of the state to dictate what a business does or does not sell? Should the state be allowed to force a business to sell adult men’s magazines? Is a business 'racist' (to use your stereotype) if they don't sell men’s magazines? How about tofu? Would it be racist for a grocer to not offer tofu? And who might it be racist against? Women, men, or vegetarians? And by the way don't men and women have the choice to have or not have sex, there by determining if they become pregnant? Isn't that the choice? C.

final words..

Submitted by bubba z (not verified) on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 2:42pm.

Are you comparing contraceptives with adult men's magazines?

y/n

I think it's only fair given

Submitted by Ehver Green on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 2:44pm.

I think it's only fair given your comparison of this to white only bathrooms.

Because...

Submitted by chaney on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 2:51pm.

...the free market cannot be trusted with medicine. Having the money to start a business should not give a person the right to make healthcare decisions for others. If Ralph's doesn't want to be in the business of filling prescriptions, they shouldn't have a pharmacy.

WORD!

Submitted by chad360 on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 6:55pm.

Chaney for Mayor! >grin<

The pharmacy is a regulated industry

Submitted by jlw on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 8:12pm.

It's not the responsibility of the state to dictate what a business does or does not sell; tofu and men's magazines are not items that are essential to maintaining one's health. However, it is the business of the state to ensure that health care systems are administered according to certain standards. And I believe that is appropriate. Would you care to be treated by an unlicensed doctor? Pharmacies are heavily regulated, with good reason. Ralph's is openly violating state pharmacy regulations, and I think that's cause for concern. It's also quite alarming to me that the owners of Ralph's Thriftway Pharmacy have no regard for science, choosing to characterize Plan B as an abortifacient when it is exactly the same, chemically, as birth control formulations they currently stock, and when no medical evidence whatsoever exists which proves it does anything other than suppress ovulation.

Janet, would you support

Submitted by Ehver Green on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 10:59pm.

Janet, would you support having the drug in the pharmacy (by prescription only) and allow Ralph's to control their OTC shelf? Many OTC drugs are in the pharmacies control and not actually by prescription. I think this is how it will play out. Ralph's will have to carry it, but by prescription only.

I don't think it will happen that way

Submitted by jlw on Sat, 07/28/2007 - 3:49pm.

Plan B isn't OTC in the same way that Tagamet or Advil are OTC. The FDA restricts its distribution to pharmacies only, and requires that women present ID in order to get it. It's actually behind the counter, not over the counter. It's a unique status, and the new code, which took effect yesterday, particularly specifies that the code applies to "legend drugs [meaning prescription drugs] and drugs and devices restricted by the FDA to distribution only in pharmacies."

I think it will be very interesting to see how this lawsuit plays out.

Pharmacy regulated industry

Submitted by Tschida on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 9:18am.

Janet I agree with you assertion about Plan B as compared chemically to other birth control. I disagree however that Plan B is not essential to the health of anyone. In fact the name of the product says it all. Asserting that it is essential or necessary for women’s health is a false premise. As I understand the pharmacy in question offers other birth control, and last I checked women have the right and responsibility to determine whether or not they engage in an activity that may result in pregnancy, or as I call it Plan A. How does treatment by an unlicensed doctor fit into this exactly? Why the social pressure to force a pharmacy to carry a product you (the citizens) want, rather than just taking your money elsewhere? Why pretend this is anything other than socialist intervention in private business? C.

Why can't you people get it

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 9:46am.

Why can't you people get it through your heads? When Plan A has been compromised Plan B is necessary. When women are the victims of rape (or as friends and supporters of rapists like to call it, Unplanned Sexual Encounter (U.S.E.)) it is necessary. Where do you get off assuming the women who want this Emergency product available for the unfortunate time when it's necessary are running around living a hedonist lifestyle of unprotected sex?

Telling a woman who isn't pregnant yet that she is required to do nothing and see if she conceives is wrong.

last I checked women have the right and responsibility to determine whether or not they engage in an activity that may result in pregnancy

Does your attitude apply to the men taking Viagra via Stormans Pharmacy? "Keep your legs crossed and be a good girl", is that what this is about? Is your objection to the product that sex should be solely for procreation and not pleasure? Are you celibate, or do you have a growing number of kids?

Sleep, William Blake/All is well/There's a marriage up in heaven tonight/There's a fire in hell
Daniel Amos

Maybe it's time to figure out who doesn't get it.

Submitted by Tschida on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 11:00am.

Plan B is available. Because it is not available at one store does not make the business racist, fascist or misogynistic. Get over yourself and your demands of government intervention in a private business.

Friends and supporters of rapists? I guess stereotypes are ok when you use them. Right? Get over yourself. That was a repellent thing to suggest. Is this your true character? That product is available (Plan B) is available many places in Olympia. Could you try a least a little to be honest in a debate? Ralph's offers many different contraceptives for both sexes. Why do you pretend they aren't?

Merwyn said, "Telling a woman who isn't pregnant yet that she is required to do nothing and see if she conceives is wrong." Where did I say this? Women are freely available to purchase birth control from Ralph's and many other stores in Olympia? Why do you pretend that Plan B is only available through Ralph's, and they have decided for moral reasons not to stock it? You are being dishonest in your discussion.

Because men take Viagra or one of its variants, does not entitle him to sex, nor does it compromise his responsibility to behave in a moral and honest manner.

Merwyn said "Keep your legs crossed and be a good girl", is that what this is about? No but that is a convenient convolution and petulant thing to suggest. Should women act like they value their bodies and actually have and use a moral compass? Yes. Should men do the same? Yes.

How does my family matter in this discussion? You are a petulant and angry dim bulb. This is about the government locally run by lefties sticking their nose in private business under the guise of feminism. If you are interested in a discussion about reproductive rights I am all for it, but lets not pretend it is a discussion about something else. I also think you are angry about Ralph's pharmacy taking a moral stand for what they (Kevin?) believes in. They took a moral stand you don't like so you and many of the rest of the supporters of the boycott want to punish Ralph's by using the government as a tool of your retribution. It's not enough that you take your money else where, and find a store that suits you since Ralph's doesn't; rather you feel that someone who not only has a moral belief but actually acts on it should be made an example of. It is a pathetic demonstration of the left in action.

Wow, revealing

Submitted by jlw on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 1:37pm.

"Should women act like they value their bodies and actually have and use a moral compass?"

And you think that somehow precludes having sex? Oooooooooooh-kay. Very revealing.

Plan B is available. Because

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 2:29pm.

I'm not the one who brought up racism or fascism. His doublestandards concerning Feminine and Masculine morality back up my Misogyny claim. As for getting over myself I gladly will once you get over yourself and Kevin gets over himself.

Friends and supporters of rapists? I guess stereotypes are ok when you use them. Right?

I'm not saying you personally said anything in support of rapists; there have been vocal supporters of Kevin's who'd claim that rapists wear condoms so victims don't need emergency contraception. If someone's going to defend the "good character" of a rapist I'll consider them a friend and supporter.

Could you try a least a little to be honest in a debate? Ralph's offers many different contraceptives for both sexes. Why do you pretend they aren't?

When did I ever say that Plan B wasn't available anywhere else? You have no basis for telling me to be honest. If I'm pretending that they don't offer contraceptives then why have I posted otherwise on various sites including this one?

Because men take Viagra or one of its variants, does not entitle him to sex

I completely agree. But why else would a guy take it? And then if said guy assaults a woman, or has his condom break in action, the woman must rely only on Hope to keep from conceiving instead of on a medication that won't harm a fertilized egg that's already implanted. That is, the woman must, according to Kevin and his defenders.

You are a petulant and angry dim bulb

Ah, classy. I have some adjectives and names for you too.

This is about the government locally run by lefties sticking their nose in private business under the guise of feminism. If you are interested in a discussion about reproductive rights I am all for it, but lets not pretend it is a discussion about something else.

Who's the dim bulb? It is too about reproductive rights, or more accurately the right of a woman to have a chance not to be put into the situation. Most specifically it's about a guy who decides morality for women based on apparent Christianity while endorsing other products whose use and abuse is restricted by the Bible.

Do I think he should be forced to sell Plan B. Honestly, no I don't. Do I think people should be able to judge his character based on public comments he's made? absolutely.

rather you feel that someone who not only has a moral belief but actually acts on it should be made an example of.

His "moral belief" is inconsistent.

It is a pathetic demonstration of the left in action.

Ah, I see. Do you realize that some of the Boycotters are uncompromisingly Pro-Life, that some believe homosexuality is wrong, lots go to church (even some Catholics), some believe Affirmative Action is racist, some are gun owners, some have served in the military, some believe that downtown Olympia's homeless population are "smelly lazy sex offenders" (I was really surprised when (s)he spoke up for the boycott), and some voted Republican last election? Your "it's the Left" argument doesn't fly.

Sleep, William Blake/All is well/There's a marriage up in heaven tonight/There's a fire in hell
Daniel Amos

Merwyn...

Submitted by Tschida on Sat, 07/28/2007 - 9:54pm.

Considering you misconstrued just about everything I had to say, failed to understand the context of the points made, and generally seem to enjoy some kind of pseudo righteous indignation, I am not really sure what the point of debating you about any thing would be.

You are literally in an entirely different conversation, highlighted by this remark, "His "moral belief" is inconsistent." You missed the point that it is his moral belief to have and run his store by. Not yours! Inconsistent or not, no one is harmed by his choice of what medication he sells or doesn't sell. If I were you Merwyn I would consider an ego check before I run around calling people misogynists. You don't know me, or what I am about, and doubt you would take the time to look beyond the end of your nose before you formed an opinion. Aside from that your need to label me a misogynist, perhaps you would keep in mind I didn't say you called anyone a racist or a fascist, I am glad to tell you it is not all about you ,friend.

Janet, your notion that the medicine is not available easily is laughable. I understand that this issue can be construed as a statewide or a nationwide issue doesn't really change anything does it? Walking distance is too far? How about the following; bus, friend, relative, cab, bicycle, neighbor, co-worker or *gasp* have it on hand before it is actually needed. Why don't you consider this comment as a partial rebuttal to your claim that it is not readily available? link The link also discusses other options such as mail service, such as Medco or CVS.

Here is a question just for some context. If Janet's friend or friend’s friend could not find it at four different pharmacies, how many other pharmacies are being taken to court and boycotted? I bet the answer is zero, which reinforces this is about retribution against Ralph's and just under the guise of 'oppressing women', or some such nonesense.

huh

Submitted by Rafael on Sat, 07/28/2007 - 10:44pm.

Why wouldn't you call someone racist or fascist if that's what you really think of them? Isn't that important behavior to call people on?

Wow, you sound angry

Submitted by jlw on Sat, 07/28/2007 - 11:50pm.

I'm glad you have a safe place to vent.

I think you need to read more carefully, though. You don't seem to have completely understood what I wrote. My two friends who had to go to four pharmacies before they got their prescriptions filled didn't boycott those other pharmacies -- they filed complaints with the Board of Pharmacy. And when the Board of Pharmacy investigated the complaints, the pharmacies in question (except for Ralph's) became more conscientious about keeping Plan B in stock. Now Plan B is much more widely available in Olympia than it was a year ago. You see, regulation works.

Looks who's jumping to

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Sun, 07/29/2007 - 8:51am.

Looks who's jumping to conclusions! Unless your name is Kevin and not Chris I never called you a Misogynist. I have a whole 'nuther list of names for you. Telling me to "look beyond my nose" before forming opinions and accusing me of not having read what you wrote...you should throw those accusations at a mirror.

You missed the point that it is his moral belief to have and run his store by. Not yours!

No Shit! And it's my belief, moral or otherwise, to shop there or not. Not his.

If you would bother to either read what I wrote, or not confuse me with other posters, you'd see that I don't want the Government telling him what he has to sell. Just like I don't want them telling me where I have to shop.

Sleep, William Blake/All is well/There's a marriage up in heaven tonight/There's a fire in hell
Daniel Amos

Why can't you people get it

Submitted by Norm on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 12:11pm.

Why can't you people get it through your heads?

They may very well "get it" they just don't agree with your stance here. Folks have butted heads on this blog many times over this same thing. Just because YOU think that it should be obvious and everyone should be feeling a certain way doesn't mean that everyone else is going to fall into line.

Trying to beat it into someone's head, or rewording it into something rude, isn't going to work.

Plan B could prevent an abortion

Submitted by jlw on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 1:35pm.

You don't think that qualifies as "essential"? Although I believe that abortion should be kept safe and legal, I would like to see it used less frequently. Easy access to contraception facilitates that goal. I think access to birth control is essential for women's health. In fact, there is a direct correlation between infant mortality rate, maternal mortality rate, and access to birth control.

To Janet B

Submitted by Tschida on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 2:33pm.

What does my belief that women should value their bodies, and make use of a moral compass and good judgement reveal about me, that doesn't require assumptions on your part about me? I would like to know.

I believe that Plan B should be available to women across America. I don't believe the government is here to dictate what a private business does and does not sell. These are two separate issues.

Birth control medication and other preventative measures, including abstinence, are available through out Olympia, and there is absolutely no lack of access to it, even for children.

I agree with your assertions about the health benefits and peripheral uses of birth control medication. I know that women can get benefits from taking the medication even if they are not sexually active. I don’t agree that abortion should be legal unless the life of the mother is at serious risk.

What I would like to see is some honesty in this discussion. This issue is not about Ralph's being misogynistic, or wanting to oppress women, or racism, fascism or any of the other myriad of claims that have been made. Does a private business get to sell or not sell what it wants for what ever reason it sees fit? Can the government intervene or is the government over stepping its authority in dictating what a private business is required to offer?

The pharmacy is part of a regulated industry

Submitted by jlw on Sat, 07/28/2007 - 7:53am.

Pharmacies are a regulated industry, and appropriately so. The level of regulation appropriate for a grocery is not the same as the level of regulation appropriate for a pharmacy. I believe that pharmacies should be subject to state regulations, and it is appropriate for the Pharmacy Board to require that a pharmacy be adequately stocked. I don't think we need a state Board of Ice Cream to tell Stormans what flavors to sell at Bayview, but I believe that the State Board of Pharmacy is necessary. Along with the privilege of a pharmacy license, a pharmacy has an obligation to serve the pharmaceutical needs of its patients, without discrimination.

White Only Bathrooms

Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 2:43pm.

Bubba Z said, "a pharmacy not stocking contraceptives is to women what "white Only" bathrooms were to negro's" That could be the quote of the week.

Multiple Choice, find the one that fits, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_premise By the way Bubba, does Ralph's offer any of the birth control contraceptives listed in this table, of monophasic, biphasic or triphasic medicines?

http://www.medicinenet.com/oral_contraceptives_birth_control_pills/page2.htm

See, if they do, it kind of ruins your entire misguided and foolish premise, wouldn't you agree?

Please refer to my question above..

Submitted by bubba z (not verified) on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 2:45pm.

Please refer to my question above..

Planned birth control and

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 3:00pm.

Planned birth control and Emergency contraception are two separate things. Like St. Pete's he can "justify" providing BC if it's for a menstrual or hormonal prescription. Since Kevin does in fact offer Viagra through his pharmacy he's opened himself up to charges of misogyny. I am surprised however that he doesn't have his pharmacist verify that the guy with the prescription is married and planning on creating a brood.

I'm surprised he doesn't sue the Government for the right not to hire women, after all his religious beliefs dictate they belong in the kitchen. Meanwhile he stocks plenty to insure the men can drink 'em up, smoke 'em up, then when they're good and ready f* 'em up. Hail Mary!

Sleep, William Blake/All is well/There's a marriage up in heaven tonight/There's a fire in hell
Daniel Amos

Olyblog Quote Of The Week would be a cool thing.

Submitted by Rafael on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 1:19am.

That's all.

Re-hash?

Submitted by Norm on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 2:46pm.

This argument has been stomped upon over and over again. Some folks don't care about women's rights....some folks don't care about business rights. You all aren't going to agree. Bubba, give it up. People are going to try and compare Plan B to other products. There aren't many other products that stores are FORCED to sell, particularly when the store owner may have a moral problem with selling them. Please keep us updated hr.

Hi Norm..

Submitted by bubba z (not verified) on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 2:49pm.

Hi Norm..

Bubba said, "Are you

Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 2:48pm.

Bubba said, "Are you comparing contraceptives with adult men's magazines?"

Yes, just as you compare the refusal to offer that medicine with racism. I also compared it to tofu. Why? Was that too broad?

Here is a list of the other Birth Control that Ralph's may offer

Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 2:53pm.

BRAND NAME(S) Alesse-28 Apri Aviane Brevicon Demulen 1/35-21 Demulen 1/35-28 Demulen 1/50-21 Demulen 1/50-28 Desogen Genora 1/35 Genora 1/50 Lessina Levlite 28 Levlen 21 Levlen 28 Levora 0.15/30-21 Levora 0.15/30-28 Loestrin 21 1/20 Loestrin 21 1.5/30 Loestrin FE 1/20 Loestrin FE 1.5/30 Lo-Ovral 28 Ovral 28 Low-Ogestrel 28 Ogestrel 0.5/50-28 Microgestin 1/20 Microgestin 1.5/30 Microgestin FE 1/20 Microgestin FE 1/5/30 Modicon Necon 0.5/35-21 Necon 0.5/35-28 Necon 1/50-21 Necon 1/50-28 Necon 1/35-21 Necon 1/35-28 Nelova 1/50 Nelova 1/35 Nelova 1/50 Nordette 28 Norinyl 1/50 Norinyl 1/35 Nortrel 0.5/35 Nortrel 1/35 Ortho-Cept Ortho-Novum 1/35 Ortho-Novum 1/50 Ortho-Cyclen Ovcon 50 Ovcon 35 Portia Tri-Norinyl 28 Yasmin 28 Zovia 1/50E Zovia 1/35E BIPHASIC PRODUCTS BRAND NAME(S) Jenest 28 Kariva

isms

Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 3:02pm.

Whether this is sexism, classism or whatever doesn't really matter. If you believe that people have a right to medicine, as I do, then it doesn't really matter what label you slap on him, Kevin Stormans is just wrong. I happen to have views that completely differ from the free market economy philosophy that we as people have had foisted upon us. If you are a fan of the free market, then I can understand your bitterness about the Pharmacy Board's decision, but since I'm not, well, nanny nanny boo boo.

They must find it difficult...
Those who have taken authority as truth,
rather than truth as the authority."
- Gerald Massey

heh

Submitted by Norm on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 3:56pm.

I had the same response with the smoking ban. All of these friends whining and crying and I was secretly ecstatic.

Sweet! Look at that, I'm "Normy" smurf!!!

Olycop was whining and

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 4:00pm.

Olycop was whining and crying? I'm telling him you said that. Uh oh, look who has a broken tail light coming up! ;-)

Sleep, William Blake/All is well/There's a marriage up in heaven tonight/There's a fire in hell
Daniel Amos

Grrr

Submitted by Norm on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 5:04pm.

Olycop isn't my ONLY friend y'know :p

And be quiet about the tail light, it's not out but it only has one stage to it, the second stage isn't firing, I need a new bulb.

According to Mothers against

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 3:45pm.

According to Mothers against Drunk Drivers and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration 45% of Washington State highway deaths in 2005 were alcohol related.

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention approximately 7500 Washington residents die of complications from smoking (that number did not include secondhand smoke or fires.)

Clearly Kevin has a moral obligation to honor the sanctity of life and protect his shoppers from themselves. Many Biblical passages from Leviticus to Corinthians demand an obligation to assist and lift up neighbors in their weakness.

individuals value different

Submitted by Norm on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 4:02pm.

individuals value different sets of standards for giving/taking life. I don't know that I would ever feel very good about selling alcohol or cigarettes to a person. I have sold firearms to someone though, and unfortunately the numbers associated with them and an untimely death are sadly high.

Do you think that's a decision the government should make for him Merwyn? In practice I'm all for it, in principal it makes my stomach turn.

I've said before that I

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 4:54pm.

I've said before that I could really care less whether Ralph's had Plan B or not. It is available elsewhere and I wouldn't want to be told what I'm supposed to stock in my store either. The reason I joined the boycott was because Kevin opened his mouth and said he was taking a moral stand. Since he was the one who brought up morality (and the claim that it was all about saving a life) it justifies questioning his decision to sell other products that some might find unsavory.

Especially when he's claiming "morality" but proving through what is available in the pharmacy (condoms and viagra so that men can get some) that he believes there's a different sexual standard for men and women.

Unless of course I find out that he does in fact require his pharmacist to verify the matrimonial status of any guy coming in with a Viagra prescription.

Sleep, William Blake/All is well/There's a marriage up in heaven tonight/There's a fire in hell
Daniel Amos

I was just jabbering, not

Submitted by Norm on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 5:02pm.

I was just jabbering, not even disagreeing. I haven't shopped there since Janet took me under her wing....well I got car tabs there awhile ago, but that was all DoL so it doesn't count.

Personally I'd like to open up a gunshop/barbecue rib house. You can buy a gun, you can eat some good food, it would be perfect. I'd probably have to invest in a lot of sani-wipes. The most important thing though.....no vegetables....no tofu.....just barbecued meat, beans, and corn on the cob......maybe rice.

Point of Clarification

Submitted by The Original Yoda on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 6:02pm.

Corn is a vegetable.

Well yeah

Submitted by Norm on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 7:44pm.

...but barely! C'mon, as far as vegetables go, corn is like the cool cousin that snuck in the nice fireworks for the 4th of July every year.

You're thinking of kale, I

Submitted by chaney on Sat, 07/28/2007 - 4:03am.

You're thinking of kale, I think

I'm there, especially now

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 10:32pm.

I'm there, especially now that Tony Roma's gone. I want some babyback and a 12 Gauge.

Sleep, William Blake/All is well/There's a marriage up in heaven tonight/There's a fire in hell
Daniel Amos

mmm..

Submitted by bubba z (not verified) on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 3:18am.

i just had an awesome bbq pork loin & rice sandwich at my sister in-laws house. 1st time ever putting rice on a sandwich. it worked. we need more food posts..

you ideas intrigue me and i wish to subscribe to your newsletter

Submitted by Crenshaw Sepulveda on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 1:00am.

Wow, what a concept, Stormans verifying the matrimonial status of guy wanting viagra. I think you have it nailed. Stormans morality should prevent him from dispensing to unmarried men desiring viagra, no question about it. I suspect, however, it would really cut into his profits from the pharmacy while the profits from emergency contraception are probably minimal at best. Selective morality when it suits Stormans. I hope he realizes what a fool he'll make of himself in court. Man, the Conservative Overlords will not be happy with Stormans after this fiasco. When will Stormans get it, the Conservative Overlords are playing him for a sucker.

"I would make it impossible for the covetous and avaricious to utterly impoverish the poor. The rich can take care of themselves."
^@^

Freedom of choice...

Submitted by Tschida on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 3:11pm.

CS said "Selective morality when it suits Stormans." Umm, yeah, isn't that Stormean's perogative? You don't have to shop there, you don't have to buy from him. He doesn't have to sell anything he doesn't want. See how that works. You have a choice, and he has a choice. If he loses money and goes out of business then so be it. He screwed up. It is up to him what he sells.

Conservative Overlords? Who would this be? Just curious.

C.

Now here's where we agree. I

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 3:21pm.

Now here's where we agree. I knew it was bound to happen.

Simple Capitalism. To be a successful businessman one must convince the public to give up their money for your product(s). In this case a segment of the local population doesn't want to conduct business. They've utilized their First Amendment rights to explain why. That's America!

Politics and Morality make for a Strange Brew

Submitted by Crenshaw Sepulveda on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 7:59pm.

Morality is simply the attitude we adopt towards people whom we personally dislike.

- Oscar Wilde

"I would make it impossible for the covetous and avaricious to utterly impoverish the poor. The rich can take care of themselves."
^@^

This is a statewide, not just a local, issue

Submitted by Rafael on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 2:34pm.

Over and over in this thread the smug "free market" ideologues point out that Plan B can be purchased elsewhere in town. This is poorly thought out at best, disingenuous at worst. Even if Plan B is available elsewhere in our little privileged college capital town, many Washington settlements don't have the luxury of multiple choices in their pharmacies. This IS a matter of access.

No, I am pretty sure I thought about what I posted.

Submitted by Tschida on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 3:04pm.

So could you come up with an example of a town, village, hamlet, or parish, which has only ONE pharmacy? I know I couldn't come up with one either. There are usually pharmacy albeit small in clinics as well. This sort of leaves your suggestion hollow and foolish. This is not a matter of access. Considering we are discussing the goings on in and around Olympia, I don't think that a Bedouin community in rural south east Washington is germane to the conversation, not that you would be correct if it were pertinent. Now let’s not forget that one can order medication through the mail also. Medco will ship express if need be. There are others like CVS as well. So not only would this mythical town not have more than one pharmacy, it would also have to not have access to the United States Postal Service. Then should this town exist we could debate whether the government is needed to offer birth control by forcing some other store to offer it. It seems that consideration and thoughtfulness were missing when this comment was made, though I could be wrong.Regards, Your 'smug free market ideologue' C.

The Post Office would be a

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 3:17pm.

The Post Office would be a horrible option. By three days it would be too late for Plan B. But then again it would only cost somewhere from $20 to $40 to have it FedEx'd overnight.

It is a pathetic demonstration of the left in action.

This sort of leaves your suggestion hollow and foolish.

It seems that consideration and thoughtfulness were missing when this comment was made, though I could be wrong.

So...

Submitted by Tschida on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 3:21pm.

So it should not count because you have to pay extra to have it shipped over night?

Could you not stock it in your medicine cabinet for possible future use? I know Dr. Drew (Radio show host) has been saying this since the medication came on the market.

The woman needing the medication can not get to a pharmacy in a town that neighbors her mythical single pharmacy no USPS service town? Sounds iffy to me.

C.

Could you not stock it in

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 3:31pm.

Could you not stock it in your medicine cabinet for possible future use?

Not a bad idea. When you're not calling me Dim Bulb or ranting on Leftists I'm capable of being reasonable.

By the way, for someone with little or no income forty extra dollars may be impossible to come by. And I didn't say "no USPS service", but many areas have agonizingly slow service. My experience with Spirit Lake, Idaho was an average three week wait. Three days is too late for Plan B.

Sleep, William Blake/All is well/There's a marriage up in heaven tonight/There's a fire in hell
Daniel Amos

My entire point, and I do have one...

Submitted by Tschida on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 3:46pm.

My point is this is not an issue that the government should be intervening in. This is also not an issue of availability.

The government has no business requireing a pharmacy to carry any product for any reason. The government should be checking that the pharmacy is not breaking any laws, and that they are dispensing medication per the legal requirements.

Heard. Understood. Mostly

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 3:49pm.

Heard. Understood. Mostly agreed with.

The discussion concerning science and morality were valid as well. In this issue they all go together.

Sleep, William Blake/All is well/There's a marriage up in heaven tonight/There's a fire in hell
Daniel Amos

The availability issue

Submitted by jlw on Sat, 07/28/2007 - 8:04am.

I will grant that most women in Olympia will not have too hard a time finding emergency contraception (EC). However, I'd like to point out that some people don't have cars; there are young women who live downtown for whom Ralph's is the only pharmacy within easy walking distance.

However, more importantly, this is a STATEWIDE policy. In many less densely populated areas, there may be only one pharmacy within a 50-mile, or larger, radius. The regulatory code that Ralph's is fighting applies to all Washington State pharmacies, including some pharmacies that serve rural populations where customers don't have an array of choices.

I would also like to point out that just last summer, before the Pharmacy Board began investigating complaints, two women in Olympia had to go to four pharmacies before they could find one that would fill their prescription. FOUR pharmacies! Even with a car, that takes a long time. Working people (and one of these women was a working mother) don't always have that kind of time during business hours to spend tracking down a pharmacy that will fill their prescription. With recent regulatory pressure, I'm happy to say, the situation has changed, and now every pharmacy in Olympia except Ralph's is complying with state code and promptly serving the needs of its patients. But a very different scenario might be playing out if the Pharmacy Board were not overseeing this matter.

This is where I think we

Submitted by Rob Richards on Sat, 07/28/2007 - 1:19am.

This is where I think we have to be careful Raphael. You and I, I think, have similar opinions about the free market, mainly that it is sucking the life out of our communities. Given that, my anarchistic tendencies still have a problem with the state forcing a person to do something. If we allow the state to force Stormans into selling Plan B, does that open the door for the state to control others, perhaps us, in similar ways in our lives? I think Stormans is wrong, so part of me thinks, "fine, make him sell it", but I still wonder how I would react if the shoe were on the other foot. For instance, what if the government told me that if I didn't turn every person that came into Bread and Roses with an active warrant in to the cops, that I could be charged with aiding and abetting a fugitive? That would seriously hinder my ability to build trust among those I serve. The examples are certainly apples and oranges, but I can't help but think the underlying principles are the same. (Just something that's been on my mind)

They must find it difficult...
Those who have taken authority as truth,
rather than truth as the authority."
- Gerald Massey

Norm, you rock and are funny!

Submitted by chad360 on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 6:58pm.

BBQ & Skeet! Pull!

I'm not surprised Stormans is putting up a fight

Submitted by Crenshaw Sepulveda on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 12:48am.

The Conservative Overlords must be appeased. I'm wondering who is funding his case against the State. Aren't you all just a little annoyed with this petty man? Everyone is entitled to their religion and their morals, no one is entitled to impose them on others. Stormans, against common wisdom, considers emergency contraception as abortion. It is one thing to be against abortion, it is another to create abortion where there is none. What next, will Stormans stop selling coat hangers? A note to the State Pharmacy Board,: if Stormans thinks emergency contreception is abortion perhaps he's not bright enough to have a pharmacy licence to begin with. Do we really want people with so little pharmacy knowledge dispensing potentially dangerous substances. I'm wondering if Stormans can tell a suppository from support hose.

"I would make it impossible for the covetous and avaricious to utterly impoverish the poor. The rich can take care of themselves."
^@^

If it goes to trial...

Submitted by jlw on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 1:31pm.

... the Stormans are going to hear a few things they've refused to listen to so far.

A couple of months ago, I talked to a professor of pharmacology at the University of Washington. I was asking him to point me in the direction of medical research that has proven that Plan B prevents ovulation without interfering with fertilization and implantation. He was able to refer me to quite a few studies. Then, to my surprise, he told me that he had, on his own initiative, attempted to contact the Stormans. He wanted to tell them that their stance that Plan B causes an abortion is not supported by medical evidence, because he wanted to help them! This professor felt that the Stormans were losing money and dividing their community for no good reason, because they so thoroughly misunderstand the way Plan B works. The Stormans absolutely refused to speak to him -- they just didn't want to be bothered by scientific facts that conflicted with their stubbornly held beliefs.

If this goes to trial, the state will have a chance to present its defense, and I'm sure they will call expert witnesses such as this professor of pharmacology, and I'm sure the state will introduce the many studies that show Plan B works primarily via suppressing ovulation. The Stormans may clamp their hands firmly over their ears when someone brings up facts they don't want to be bothered with, but that's not how the court system works.

It should be interesting.

Thoroughly Enjoyed Reading This Thread

Submitted by Rafael on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 1:30am.

Best thread yet for me. Made me laugh, made me think, two thumbs up.

Interesting!

Submitted by Meta Hogan on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 10:23am.

Not to be too much of a Public Disclosure Commission nerd, but you can look up Stormans(es)' campaign contributions here: www.pdc.wa.gov. Click on "search the database", then choose "detailed contributions to candidates", then type in "stormans" in the "partial contributor name" field. Leave the other fields blank; you'll only get about a page of results anyway. The results include all contributors with the phrase "stormans" in their name, so be sure to double-check the contributor's full name before coming to conclusions (the main ones are Ken(neth) & Lynn, Stormans Inc., and Christina and Gregory--not sure what all the relations are). The only contributions from a Stormans for this year are to Bob VanSchoorl, Amy Tousley, and James McCune, but in previous years they included local candidates Mark Foutch, Ira Knight, Dave Kent, Sandra Miller, Steve Pottle, and Doug Mah. Careful, though... this can be an habit-forming website.

I guess I don't understand...

Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Sat, 07/28/2007 - 7:30am.

Why would anyone want to be in the pharmacy business and not be willing to carry ALL drugs that are needed in their community that must be available in a timely fashion? Good business is about customer service. Customer service is about providing to the needs of your customer base. Maybe the message here is that Stormans doesn't want customers that need emergency contraception. This technique has appeared to not bode well for Stormans as I doubt that they have GAINED any market edge because of their stand. As to the "religious" reasons, they are just plain misinformed, as has been proven over and over. Sometimes saying "I was wrong" are the three most difficult words in the English language. Is "arrogance" one of the seven deadly sins?

"There is only one race, the human race" - The Neville Brothers

Larry, Plan B has no market.

Submitted by Ehver Green on Sat, 07/28/2007 - 8:06am.

Larry, Plan B has no market. No market, no stocky. If I were Kevin this would be my argument - I'd abandon the religious front. Freedom of Religion is a myth in America.

I wouldn't say "no" market

Submitted by jlw on Sat, 07/28/2007 - 10:57am.

I grant that there is not a huge market for Plan B, being as it is designed for use as a back-up to regular birth control in unusual circumstances. It's not like toilet paper -- no one is going to be using it every day. And certainly, stocking Plan B wouldn't result in the sort of profits Ralph's derives from stocking alcohol, cigarettes, condoms, and Viagra, items with which the owners apparently have no moral qualms. Nevertheless, there is a market, a growing market, as reported recently in the Seattle Times.

Remember folks

Submitted by Norm on Sat, 07/28/2007 - 9:34am.

if you are sick make sure and not go to St. Peters also. Last I checked their outpatient pharmacy does not provide PlanB. This may have changed of course, but: if you are dying, and firmly believe in state's rights vs. individual rights, please ask the ambulance to take you to capital medical center.

I seriously doubt Plan B is

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Sat, 07/28/2007 - 10:05am.

I seriously doubt Plan B is called for when someone is dying.

While St. Pete's doesn't stock Plan B their doctors aren't forbidden from prescribing it.

Capitol Medical Center is the wrong choice if you're uninsured.

Sleep, William Blake/All is well/There's a marriage up in heaven tonight/There's a fire in hell
Daniel Amos

Lots of sarcasm there

Submitted by Norm on Sat, 07/28/2007 - 10:18am.

Lots of sarcasm there ;)

Remember, St. Pete's is, and has been, hurting for doctors for a long time now. They don't want to tell the doc's what to do. Most of the doc's working there don't even work there, they contract, but have their own practice outside of the hospital. Last I heard the outpatient pharmacy won't dispense, but the inpatient will. "rape kit" or something along those lines.

That Judge in Nebraska said

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Sun, 07/29/2007 - 8:54am.

That Judge in Nebraska said we can't call it that anymore. I guess it's an Unplanned Sexual Encounter kit.

Sleep, William Blake/All is well/There's a marriage up in heaven tonight/There's a fire in hell
Daniel Amos

Post-Intelligencer Editorial

Submitted by jlw on Sun, 07/29/2007 - 5:58pm.

Obviously, Mike Oakland isn't in charge up in Seattle -- this editorial doesn't mince words in reacting to the Stormans lawsuit. I guess Ralph's and Bayview don't advertise in the PI.

Frivolous lawsuit?

Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Sun, 07/29/2007 - 6:22pm.

I haven't heard the frivolous lawsuit people chime in on this one.

"There is only one race, the human race" - The Neville Brothers

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