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Submitted by Rick on Thu, 12/14/2006 - 2:55pm.

We've just finished reading Dave Weinberger's other book, Small Pieces, Loosely Joined, and we enjoyed it so much that we decided to jump into his earlier book, The Cluetrain Manifesto.

The idea is that we can discuss the book on line on this thread, and then we can have a "non-virtual" version at the Broho on the second Thursday of the month.


»

take one.

I've just started reading Cluetrain, and although I'm wanting to get into the marketplace aspect of it, thought I'd start with a hyperlocal-government focus.

Does the Cluetrain model translate to local communities?

1. Markets are conversations.

38. Human communities are based on discourse—on human speech about human concerns.

39. The community of discourse is the market.

95. We are waking up and linking to each other. We are watching. But we are not waiting.

 

http://blogs.msdn.com/alexbarn/archive/2005/10/15/481444.aspx

This blog prompts good questions about the time when mainstream markets really become conversations. The example given in the responses that follow the main entry push the author to expand out from the early adopters who are most savvy with engaging in these conversations to more mainstream markets.


An extrapolation of this points to an important question that Rick threw out at the last OlyBlog book club convo – how do we get locally elected officials and other local decision makers to engage in our conversations in the formats we use (namely, OlyBlog)? (I'm paraphrasing here – so catch me if I'm misrepresenting your point, Rick.) I will offer that we can count on local government to be not a late adopter of new communication formats, but the LAST adopter. The key word in this section of the 95 Thesis is “markets”. Local government, obviously, does not behave like a private marketplace. But they do seem to respond to private markets more readily than unorganized individual citizens (e.g., developers demanded online permitting services and cities and counties banded together to hire vendors to provide those services in the late 90s). Another pressure prompting locals to adopt interactive online services were regulations handed down from higher government states (e.g., the fastest adoption of interactive information provided to residents by local government came after states started passing sex offender notification laws – boom, then we had interactive maps showing registered sex offenders).


So, what is the tipping point for this leveling effect to be diffused to local govenment? When can we have Cluetrain conversations with local officials?

 

"...and if the wall seems like a door: attach new hinges to it so you can use it."
fIREHOSE

»

take two.

ack, c'mon folks - I'm replying to my own post. Join in!

I did a search on "Cluetrain local" and found that someone in the third sector from right up the street in Seattle was looking at these issues back in '99:

Check out: http://www.fullcirc.com/community/localclue.htm.

What do you think?

"...and if the wall seems like a door: attach new hinges to it so you can use it."
fIREHOSE

»

I don't think that its

I don't think that its necessarily true that local government be the final adopter of new communication technology. While Olympia has its particular aspects that I think keeps our local electeds from engaging, this very blog was inspired by a small city mayor engaging on hyperlocal blogs.

What will it take to get our city council blogging? I've put a lot of thought into this, and I think we have to prove to them that it will help. Help their process, their governance and be a better city council.

Here is a good resource for starting local e-democracy forums, and one of the steps is to get buy in from certain "stakeholders" (the powers that be, I guess) before you start conversating.
»

whoops

Well, I've been remiss. I last checked this board about a day before you posted, and promptly got caught up elsewhere and forgot to come back. Lame me.

"So, what is the tipping point for this leveling effect to be diffused to local government? When can we have Cluetrain conversations with local officials?"

I'm putting my money on the market force of competition. The first local elected official who does the majority of her/his fund raising and community communication online as part of her/his campaign will open up some eyes and force others to take notice. The Howard Dean effect on a local scale.

"Anybody who doesn't know that politics is crime has got a few screws loose."

»

I'm kinda shocked by the endorsement of this book's ideas...

Hi people,
I'm new here, so I guess I'm still learning what kinds of conversations happen on this blog, but I'm a bit surprised that people are into the Cluetrain Manifesto. I mean, the first line in the list of theses, "Markets are a conversation", is creepy and ridiculous. It's the same 90s management literature rhetoric rehashed, the kind of crap that got us to the point where we as a nation believe that markets are a more democratic form of social order than an actual democratically elected government (or any other form of social organization). It's called market populism, and it's the rhetoric that tells us that whatever the market does is what the people want- because the market is their voice, they vote with their dollars. They converse by buying. They CONSENT by buying. Therefore to question what the market does (send jobs overseas, drive down wages, etc) is unpatriotic- because you are questioning the people's will. This isn't new stuff, all throughout the 90s  people like Peter Senge, Thomas Friedman, and the utterly bonkers Tom Peters (who, interestingly, blurbs Small Pieces Loosley Joined), were raving about the righteousness of markets and their role as the people's voice for change. Their management theory books go on and on about 'revolutionary' approaches to business, they co-opt the language of the left to describe how companies should be 'anti-heirarchical' and pro-change, which mainly meant getting rid of middle management, firing the shop floor employees and rehiring them as temps in the name of flexibility, and decreasing the job stability of everyone else- all while renaming upper management with whimsical, revolutionary titles like 'Chief Change Officer". The idea that a company should be flexible enough to bend to the whims of the market really just translates to the company should be able to do whatever it needs to do in order to make the most money, workers and the environment be damned. And if you question their 'revolutionary, pro-change' actions, or if you dare to suggest that a labor union might be a better way to let the people's voices be heard, then you are clearly one of those unpatriotic, snobbish intellectuals. This is a rhetoric of rationalization, and nothing else.
And things like "20. Companies need to realize their markets are often laughing. At them."? Companies DID realize this. A LONG time ago. That's when they started using irony in advertising. That's when advertising became self-referential and self-conscious. This process began IN THE SEVENTIES and there is a vast body of advertising and management literature on exactly this subject. I kind of can't believe these people are presenting this as new!
Hopefully I am making sense, but either way I HUGELY encourage people to read Thomas Frank's GENIUS book on precisely this subject: One Market Under God. It speaks eloquently and interestingly about books like Cluetrain. And what market populism and 'revolutionary' management literature has really meant for our culture and our workers. It's a fascinating book, and even if you love Cluetrain, you might be interested in checking out the opposite viewpoint.
Please Please Please investigate this book here: http://www.tcfrank.com/omug.html

1. Markets are a conversation
7. Hyperlinks subvert hierarchy
39. The community of discourse is the market

What? C'mon dudes, we can do better than that!
»

new but guns a'blazin'

Hi annie. The purpose of the Book Club is to find readings re: the web and community and discuss'em. Specifically, what we'd like to find is something written from the perspective of an existent community (like Olympia and its online active citizens) and how the web helps it connect both locally and globally. While this book's subject matter is the web and the market, our reading of it is/was shooting for its applicability to OlyBlog and Olympia. Feel free to come to the Brotherhood tonight for the conversation. Our next book may yet interest you.

"Anybody who doesn't know that politics is crime has got a few screws loose."

»

thanks for the

thanks for the clarification. I guess management theory literature still seems like an odd place to look for a community perspective, but it does provide an interesting jumping off point for spirited discussion (which is what i thought I was offering, my apologies if it was interpreted as 'blazing guns').  what time do you meet at the brotherhood? is it a weekly thing? I'll try to make it down, it would be great to talk about this book and others!
is the in-person discussion about Small Pieces or Cluetrain? I've only read Cluetrain and don't want to show up at the wrong thing.
»

ah damn

Unfortunately I'm only now seeing your response after returning from the Brotherhood with the wind at my beer aided back. Tonight the discussion was about Cluetrain and what value we could glean from it for community building enterprises.

For future discussion, we meet at 7pm on the 2nd Thursday of each month at the Brotherhood. Next month (January 11) we'll be discussing We the Media. As well, the same spot currently reserved for Cluetrain along the right side of OlyBlog will be dedicated to the new book and its associated blogging discussion, so please join in. Blazing guns aren't necessarily bad things.

"Anybody who doesn't know that politics is crime has got a few screws loose."

»

And...

...from my perspective, we're all just a bunch of anarchists at heart, doing a form of opposition research, filtering out the good stuff and leaving the bad. These last three books, etopia, small pieces, loosely joined, and cluetrain have been about learning the history, not necessarily looking for enlightenment.


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
»

h'yes

"we're all just a bunch of anarchists at heart, doing a form of oposition research, filtering out the good stuff and leaving the badquot;

If I were religious I'd say "amen, brother!" But I'm not...so...word.

"Anybody who doesn't know that politics is crime has got a few screws loose."

»

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