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Glorification of the Military-Industrial Complex -- Whoo hoo!

Submitted by Rick on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 12:43pm.

I'm afraid it isn't the liberals who lack a sense of history -- that was the neocons, remember? If you have no idea how (and why) this war started, you'll never really understand how we're gonna get out of it.

When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow

The big scary Military-Industrial Complex?

Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 1:03pm.

The war in Iraq and Afghanistan was not begun for any single reason. There were many reasons and I am pretty mindful of them. The 'military industrial complex' is a term and a throw back to the sixties and seventies. Much like anarchism it is an irrelevant term that is simply meant to appeal to the pathos of the reader/listener, in an attempt to frighten through the use of a logical fallacy. C.

Excuse me?

Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 1:49pm.

What part of anarchy, or the military industrial complex is logical fallacy, and how are they irrelevent?

Why do we have child labor laws? 40 hour work weeks? Why are women and minorities allowed to vote? The entire civil rights movement stemmed from the anarchist ideals of equality and human rights. Today's anarchist ideals are tomorrow's laws. How is that irrelevent? Maybe you feel it's irrelevent because you don't know enough about it. I could loan you some books.

They must find it difficult...
Those who have taken authority as truth,
rather than truth as the authority."
- Gerald Massey

While Ike wasn't too far to the right...

Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Sat, 07/28/2007 - 8:05am.

He was Republican and not known for "liberal" as it has been termed today.

Here is the film of his famous speech:

www.militaryindustrialcomplex.com

"There is only one race, the human race" - The Neville Brothers

As a matter of fact...

Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 1:07pm.

I don't think the clip refers to the so-called military industrial complex at all, but rather calls for the American people and the left in particular to refuse to be cowards and actually stand up for America, and defeat fascism. C.

I agree, which is why I

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 1:38pm.

I agree, which is why I stand up for what America is supposed to be about and look forward to the defeat of the fascist government currently presiding.

Sleep, William Blake/All is well/There's a marriage up in heaven tonight/There's a fire in hell
Daniel Amos

Lincoln, logical fallacies, and fascism.

Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 2:21pm.

First I think you should read up on guys like Abe Lincoln, and then head over to Wikipedia and read up on logical fallacies, which come in under a grouping of topics at this page, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_premise.

You said, "The entire civil rights movement stemmed from the anarchist ideals of equality and human rights." This may be true in some small sense in that some guy wrote about it at some point in history, who also happened to hold some or many anarchist views. This does not however as you suggest demonstrate that these same people were instrumental personalities in getting a 40 hour work week, ending child labor, or women's suffrage. It is both ridiculous and arrogant of you to suggest that something you believe in is responsible for the actions of people like Susan Brownell Anthony. I am glad to tell you that you don't get to revise history to suit your point of view.

Anarchism as I see it is a construct from the minds of people who are angry and resentful of their lack of power over society be it real or perceived. Today they are an obtuse group of people who are adept at getting attention particularly but not limited to the media, but essentially petulant citizens who make for good spectating.

Merwyn, I would very much enjoy to hear what you think America is 'supposed' to be. Could you explain that remark a little? Also I would like to know how the current administration is fascist. That is quite a claim, one often heard from liberals, but never defined. I would very much like to hear what you think on these topics, a little more in depth.

Thanks for the comments and the debate they have sparked.

ignorance and bias

Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 3:41pm.

I fear that our discussion here will be rife with ignorance and bias (both ways). Perhaps we can focus on at least eliminating some of the ignorance.

I know about Abe Lincoln, I'm no scholar, but I think I know more than the average person. I'm no fan of his, I think he was an opportunist. From his reasons for freeing the slaves to habeas corpus, I just don't dig his style (more of a John Brown fan).

I don't really understand what you're trying to say in your second paragraph. You're opinions om Chomsky and Zinn seem like just that, opinion. I welcome some examples where they've lived up to your accusations, I've always found them to be pretty honest fellows.

I recommend you read up on the IWW and Emma Goldman and Alexander Berkman. Anarchism had a lot more to do with Labor laws and rights advances than people think. I own the federalist papers and the anti-federalist papers, though it's been awhile since I've read either. I haven't read any Sowell, though I've heard of him and have been meaning to.

"angry and resentful of their lack of power over society be it real or perceived". I don't think I would describe myself as angry and resentful, those are pretty useless emotions, but I get what you are saying and you are wrong about one thing. Myself, and most of the anarchists (of all adjectives) that I know, are (to use your words) angry and resentful about OUR, that includes you (unless of course you are part of the ownership class and take advantage of people), and every other working class citizen of Earth's lack of power over society. We ARE society after all. Anarchism does not mean, contrary to popular belief, "everybody for themselves", it is about equality, community, and even democracy.

They must find it difficult...
Those who have taken authority as truth,
rather than truth as the authority."
- Gerald Massey

I'll see your law-jiks...

Submitted by enpen on Sat, 07/28/2007 - 9:13am.

Here is the thing, guys like Chomsky, Zinn, et al, don't trade in reality, honesty or truth. Rather they and people like them such as Peter Singer exploit people, engaging them with convolution, amorality, dishonesty, and a complete disregard of context.

As Rob said, unless you're providing substantiating facts to back up these statements they all just amount to ad hominem claptrap. If you make the claim it's up to you to provide the support for the conclusion, unless you're asking people to just take your word on faith...but that's another fallacy all together.

And thanks for providing such a nice summary that I can return to you in response to tossing around vacuous terms like "amorality": "it is an irrelevant term that is simply meant to appeal to the pathos of the reader/listener, in an attempt to frighten through the use of a logical fallacy."

Maybe you are already aware of this...

Submitted by Phil Owen on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 4:04pm.

...but that video amounted to a bunch of mindless drivel that doesn't even have much value as propaganda. If you want to convince us "lefty's", you're going to have to come up with a little bit of evidence that A)the war in Iraq can be won; B) Iraq has even a little bit of something related to a terror threat to the US (Al Qaeda is still hiding out primarily in Afghanistan/Pakistan, not Iraq), or C)that there's any good goddamn reason to be there.

This video fails to provide any evidence for any of these three points. Better luck next time.

The Canaanite's Call

Example

Submitted by Tschida on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 9:25am.

This is an example of someone who doesn't get it. You don't get the humor, the truth, the reality, the scarcasm, or any other point of the video.

Good on ya!

If it makes you feel any better

Submitted by Norm on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 4:59pm.

I liked it. I agree with some of the points and it gave me a good chuckle.

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